Cat Diet using Kitten Food?

(-L. wrote:

(Yngver) wrote in message
... These posts concern
me because I have been using kitten or growth formulae to
try to help one of our cats *gain* weight. My assumption was that kitten
formulae would have more calories. Is this not true?

I don't think it does, but you can check by calling the manufacturer

I wish all mfrs stated calorie content on the bag as Royal Canin does. My
assumption that kitten/growth formulae generally have more calories than
maintenance diets is based on the recommendation that these also be used for
pregnant and nursing queens, who need more calories than normal. You're right,
I will have to check each food individually.


The cat in question is seven years old. We had to switch from free feeding
to
feeding twice a day when we got a third cat; this cat will eat until she
bursts
so we can't leave food out any more. The scheduled feedings have worked
very
well to help the two pudgier cats lose weight but unfortunately this cat
has
lost almost a half pound (which she didn't need to lose) because she will
not
eat enough at each feeding and wants to nibble througout the day.

We have been feeding her the kitten versions of Eukanuba, Wellness, and SD
and
I am now also feeding her the outdoor cat version of Royal Canin because it
is
higher in calories than any of their other formulae. At least she has
stopped
losing weight, but she has only gained back one ounce and I'd like to see
her
regain another 7 oz. Am I not doing her any good by feeding kitten
formulae?

Not sure. The reason I feed kitten chow is because it is higher
protein and lower carbs and obese cats tend to be more prone to
diabetes, so I am trying to avoid that by putting him on a lower-carb
diet. So far so good - he tends to have digestive problems and the
diet is helping with that as well.

Well, that makes sense. The food that has helped our pudgier cat lose weight is
not a weight loss formula either, but an oral health formula. I guess because
of the added fiber, it is more filling because she has lost almost a pound on
it (which she needed to lose.) And she didn't need a dental cleaning this year,
either.

Check with your vet to see if what you are doing makes sense.

Last time he just said that it won't hurt her to eat a growth formula, but I
didn't really go into the subject in depth. When she goes in next month I'll
ask for more details. Thanks for the info.

From: (Steve G)

I am unaware of the clinical research to which you refer. Perhaps you
could post some citations so that I can chase 'em up? Ta.

Call Hill's Pet Nutrition. I did. Ta.

I see. So you have no references. Situation normal, ta.

From your viewpoint, of course. Reality, however, is something completely
different.

I did wander across to the Hills WWW site, to find the following:

"A new clinical study confirms that Prescription Diet® Feline r/d®, a
low calorie, high fiber pet food formula, helps cats lose weight"

Unfortunately, the only study referred to is 'Unpublished data' from
2003. I.e., there ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which
details the clinical research to which you refer. Situation normal.

Nope, not the research I'm referring to.

Did you really call Hills, I wonder? And what did they say...?

I DID call Hill's and they gave me bulletpoints from the m/d study which is
scheduled to be published soon. The authors of the study will be having it
published soon. I did mention it was "new" research, so you shouldn't be so
cynical.

From: (Steve G)

I am unaware of the clinical research to which you refer. Perhaps you
could post some citations so that I can chase 'em up? Ta.

Call Hill's Pet Nutrition. I did. Ta.

I see. So you have no references. Situation normal, ta.

From your viewpoint, of course. Reality, however, is something completely
different.

I did wander across to the Hills WWW site, to find the following:

"A new clinical study confirms that Prescription Diet® Feline r/d®, a
low calorie, high fiber pet food formula, helps cats lose weight"

Unfortunately, the only study referred to is 'Unpublished data' from
2003. I.e., there ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which
details the clinical research to which you refer. Situation normal.

Nope, not the research I'm referring to.

Did you really call Hills, I wonder? And what did they say...?

I DID call Hill's and they gave me bulletpoints from the m/d study which is
scheduled to be published soon. The authors of the study will be having it
published soon. I did mention it was "new" research, so you shouldn't be so
cynical.

(Steve G) wrote in message m...
(Liz) wrote in message . com...
(...)
I have a site where I suggest a carb-free diet and I´ve already
received many e-mails telling me that it really works and thanking for
the suggestion so I´m not basing this on my cat´s case alone. If more
people have obese cats, try switching to Felidae canned and let us
know what happened.

Felidae canned contains carbohydates
(http://www.canidae.com/felidae.ingredients.html).

S.

I think you got the wrong link. That´s the dry Felidae.

(Steve G) wrote in message m...
(Liz) wrote in message . com...
(...)
I have a site where I suggest a carb-free diet and I´ve already
received many e-mails telling me that it really works and thanking for
the suggestion so I´m not basing this on my cat´s case alone. If more
people have obese cats, try switching to Felidae canned and let us
know what happened.

Felidae canned contains carbohydates
(http://www.canidae.com/felidae.ingredients.html).

S.

I think you got the wrong link. That´s the dry Felidae.

Alison in OH wrote in message ...
Liz wrote:

Alison in OH

From: (Liz)


He was thinking of the Atkin´s diet, no or very little carbs and lots
of protein and fats. The diet works wonders BUT it´s never going to
work with anything above 5% carbs, and I´m sure that dry food has more
than this so it won´t work.

As it turns out, cats as carnivores have a metabolism that's quite
resistant to ketosis so "Atkin's diet" ketosis for weight loss is an
inaccurate paradigm for kitties.

-Alison in OH


Their metabolism is "resistant" to ketosis because their primary
metabolic source of glucose is from glutamine and other amino acids
and not from carbs as our metabolism. Their metabolism probably
prefers to burn fat than to burn protein since protein is so necessary
for tissue maintenance but this is only what I believe. Yet, the diet
works because there is no more insulin telling the body to store fat.
Glucagon probably steps in (glucagon and insulin are antagonists) and
weight loss results. I know for a fact the diet works for cats and I
think it´s because of the absence of insulin and presence of glucagon.
I have a site where I suggest a carb-free diet and I´ve already
received many e-mails telling me that it really works and thanking for
the suggestion so I´m not basing this on my cat´s case alone. If more
people have obese cats, try switching to Felidae canned and let us
know what happened.

"I know for a fact the diet works for cats"...what diet? The Atkins
diet? Are you putting felines on two weeks of 20 grams of carbs per day?

Nonononononono... I forgot the Atkin´s allows a bit of carbs. When I
do it myself, I don´t eat any carbs at all so I meant that: zero
carbs.

Hills Prescription m/d? Seems that Hills is quite convinced that the
diet works as well, since they're marketing it.

It would never work unless most of those carbs are undigestible, e.g.,
cellulose. I haven´t looked at the formula.

How, exactly, are you disagreeing with my assertion that ketosis leading
to lipolysis is not a mechanism for weight loss in cats?

I´m not sure I got this. I wrote that it is a mechanism for weight
loss. Glucagon signals lipolysis.

By the way, if you're feeding a carb-free home-made diet then you're not
feeding organ meat and you're therefore feeding a diet that is unhealthy
on the long term.

-Alison in OH

Liver contains only 3,5g of carbs in 100g. That´s negligible. Milk
here also contains only 3g of carbs per 100g, also negligible. He also
eats cheese (he loves mozzarella) and eggs. Mozzarella here does not
contain carbs.

Alison in OH wrote in message ...
Liz wrote:

Alison in OH

From: (Liz)


He was thinking of the Atkin´s diet, no or very little carbs and lots
of protein and fats. The diet works wonders BUT it´s never going to
work with anything above 5% carbs, and I´m sure that dry food has more
than this so it won´t work.

As it turns out, cats as carnivores have a metabolism that's quite
resistant to ketosis so "Atkin's diet" ketosis for weight loss is an
inaccurate paradigm for kitties.

-Alison in OH


Their metabolism is "resistant" to ketosis because their primary
metabolic source of glucose is from glutamine and other amino acids
and not from carbs as our metabolism. Their metabolism probably
prefers to burn fat than to burn protein since protein is so necessary
for tissue maintenance but this is only what I believe. Yet, the diet
works because there is no more insulin telling the body to store fat.
Glucagon probably steps in (glucagon and insulin are antagonists) and
weight loss results. I know for a fact the diet works for cats and I
think it´s because of the absence of insulin and presence of glucagon.
I have a site where I suggest a carb-free diet and I´ve already
received many e-mails telling me that it really works and thanking for
the suggestion so I´m not basing this on my cat´s case alone. If more
people have obese cats, try switching to Felidae canned and let us
know what happened.

"I know for a fact the diet works for cats"...what diet? The Atkins
diet? Are you putting felines on two weeks of 20 grams of carbs per day?

Nonononononono... I forgot the Atkin´s allows a bit of carbs. When I
do it myself, I don´t eat any carbs at all so I meant that: zero
carbs.

Hills Prescription m/d? Seems that Hills is quite convinced that the
diet works as well, since they're marketing it.

It would never work unless most of those carbs are undigestible, e.g.,
cellulose. I haven´t looked at the formula.

How, exactly, are you disagreeing with my assertion that ketosis leading
to lipolysis is not a mechanism for weight loss in cats?

I´m not sure I got this. I wrote that it is a mechanism for weight
loss. Glucagon signals lipolysis.

By the way, if you're feeding a carb-free home-made diet then you're not
feeding organ meat and you're therefore feeding a diet that is unhealthy
on the long term.

-Alison in OH

Liver contains only 3,5g of carbs in 100g. That´s negligible. Milk
here also contains only 3g of carbs per 100g, also negligible. He also
eats cheese (he loves mozzarella) and eggs. Mozzarella here does not
contain carbs.

(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve G)

(...)

Unfortunately, the only study referred to is 'Unpublished data' from
2003. I.e., there ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which
details the clinical research to which you refer. Situation normal.

Nope, not the research I'm referring to.

Ah, some top secret, imaginary research, no doubt. Regardless, there
ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which details the clinical
research to which you refer.


Did you really call Hills, I wonder? And what did they say...?

I DID call Hill's and they gave me bulletpoints from the m/d study which is
scheduled to be published soon. The authors of the study will be having it
published soon.

Indeed? You seem awfully reluctant to give any details. No journal, no
author name, no details of any of the bulletpoints. You'll excuse me
if I don't prostrate myself at your learned feet.


I did mention it was "new" research, so you shouldn't be so
cynical.

Until the research actually exists in the public domain, I shall
remain cynical. And I certainly won't believe your assertions, which
amount to 'I called Hills and they said that m/d is the bee's
********'!

S.

(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve G)

(...)

Unfortunately, the only study referred to is 'Unpublished data' from
2003. I.e., there ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which
details the clinical research to which you refer. Situation normal.

Nope, not the research I'm referring to.

Ah, some top secret, imaginary research, no doubt. Regardless, there
ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which details the clinical
research to which you refer.


Did you really call Hills, I wonder? And what did they say...?

I DID call Hill's and they gave me bulletpoints from the m/d study which is
scheduled to be published soon. The authors of the study will be having it
published soon.

Indeed? You seem awfully reluctant to give any details. No journal, no
author name, no details of any of the bulletpoints. You'll excuse me
if I don't prostrate myself at your learned feet.


I did mention it was "new" research, so you shouldn't be so
cynical.

Until the research actually exists in the public domain, I shall
remain cynical. And I certainly won't believe your assertions, which
amount to 'I called Hills and they said that m/d is the bee's
********'!

S.

From: (Steve G)

As usual, you jump to conclusions...

Unfortunately, the only study referred to is 'Unpublished data' from
2003. I.e., there ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which
details the clinical research to which you refer. Situation normal.

Nope, not the research I'm referring to.

Ah, some top secret, imaginary research, no doubt. Regardless, there
ain't a peer-reviewed article out there which details the clinical
research to which you refer.

No black helicopters here, even though you seem to be looking for some. Once
the research is published in a journal, then perhaps you'll be convinced?

I DID call Hill's and they gave me bulletpoints from the m/d study which is
scheduled to be published soon. The authors of the study will be having it
published soon.

Indeed? You seem awfully reluctant to give any details. No journal, no
author name, no details of any of the bulletpoints. You'll excuse me
if I don't prostrate myself at your learned feet.

Nobody is asking you to. Where do you come up w/ this stuff? Like I said, it
hasn't been published yet, so of course there is no journal. You didn't ask
for details, so I didn't provide any. IIRC, Apparently 75% of the overweight
cats in the study reached their ideal weight within 20 weeks on Feline m/d.
They did that all while maintaining a healthy liver and maintaining lean body
mass.

Until the research actually exists in the public domain, I shall
remain cynical. And I certainly won't believe your assertions, which
amount to 'I called Hills and they said that m/d is the bee's
********'!

You can feel free to hold whatever crazy beliefs you want, but don't put words
into my mouth. You insinuated that I didn't know what I was talking about. I
gave you the info, now the ball's in your court (a little American lingo for
you there). Feel free to discard it or do what you want with it. I know
you're not really interested anyway, you just like to argue for argument's
sake.