stray tomcat and interferon revolt

On 24 May, 08:12, calvin wrote:
One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
that the cat has lost his fangs. *Though I asked the vet
to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to
look in his mouth. *I've never heard of a cat not having
his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be.


Is it just me or do i think failing to examine a cat;s mouth is not a
good sign? My vet checks the mouth without being asked or reminded to
do so, it's an integral part of the annual examination, in fact my vet
starts at the head i.e.ears, eyes, nose, mouth, chest etc during a
routine annual and only deviates from this if you've mentioned
something or have brought the cat in for a specific symptom

As for losing his fangs? Trauma? You said he was a stray perhaps he's
been harmed in some way, again I would ask Phil P

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

On May 24, 11:21*am, wrote:
On 24 May, 08:12, calvin wrote:
One thing I might add, which I discovered yesterday, is
that the cat has lost his fangs. *Though I asked the vet
to examine ears, eyes, and mouth, maybe he forgot to
look in his mouth. *I've never heard of a cat not having
his fangs, and have no idea what the cause might be.

Is it just me or do i think failing to examine a cat;s mouth is not a
good sign? *My vet checks the mouth without being asked or reminded to
do so, it's an integral part of the annual examination, in fact my vet
starts at the head i.e.ears, eyes, nose, mouth, chest etc during a
routine annual and only deviates from this if you've mentioned
something or have brought the cat in for a specific symptom

As for losing his fangs? Trauma? You said he was a stray perhaps he's
been harmed in some way, again I would ask Phil P

I guess we all can compare vets, but I've been taking my cats,
a total of 13 so far, though I currently have 9, including the
tomcat, to my vet 20 miles away because I've always liked
him, and have had perfect results. The vet of a person I know
has seemed terrible by comparison.

On 24 May, 08:49, calvin wrote:


I guess we all can compare vets, but I've been taking my cats,
a total of 13 so far, though I currently have 9, including the
tomcat, to my vet 20 miles away because I've always liked
him, and have had perfect results. *The vet of a person I know
has seemed terrible by comparison.- Hide quoted text -

Fine you're happy with the vet then that's good and believe me I know
some horrible vet stories like the vet that coluded with the lady of
the house (who couldn't bear to think of giving her dear old Jaws a
peaceful passing) against a friend of mine so they ended up spending
several thousand dollars to keep the cat going when it was cruel to do
so but the vet did say things to her like "This new treatment may
work- you woudln't want to give up on him would you?" or "I'm sure
you'd like to know you tried everything to save him?" you get the
picture

My vet I',m not keen on the actual practice but my heart sinks
whenever she talks about going back to Australia and when she does I
will change practices to one nearby that some friends have recommended
but she's always been great with my cats over the last 10 years-we met
as a result of a sudden emergency and even through Fugazi and me had
been slotted in at the end of the clinic she took time to go through
the options in fact it was me who first raised the word "Euthanasia"
and she guided me through the options, helped me make the decision (in
my head I'd been thinking it was coming for a few hours but this was
the first time and I'd really been hoping when we got to the vets
she's write a prescription and all would be well) took me through it
with immense kindness......All this when she should have finished half
an hour before ...

She's a great vet- even Sarsi who has a serious attuitude problem
sometimes at home and gets out of the carrier at the vets looking
around for something to kill then sees her and immediately thinks
"Friend"

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

"calvin" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 2:55 am, "Phil P." wrote:
*Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply
*specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated
from human studies.

If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
handbook.

"Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
condition treated."

"When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich-
Professor
of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.

"Adverse Effects

Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
suppression."

Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse?
If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make
sure
its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.

So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.

I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
and the cat is persistently infected.

You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon
is
so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop
symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.

You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5
stages
of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
Here's a brief outline:

.. (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;
(2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
disseminate the virus;
(3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells,
and
bone marrow precursor cells;
(4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow
into
the circulatory system; and
(5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent
shedding
of virus into the saliva and urine

An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces
the
virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops
4-6
weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat
could
be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even
years-
depending on the virus subgroup.

Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?
I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in
IU
and route (PO, SC, IM).

I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this.

I don't mind. I'm used to trying help cats suffering from C.O.S. Its what I
do.


Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat
is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which
I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become
alarmed.


Your vet didn't explain the risks to you because there are *none* at that
dose and route. I posted two highly credible sources that should have
convinced you. Will you believe your vet when he tells you the same thing?

You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you
will see many hits, some of which support your claims,
and some of which support my fears.

I don't have to Google 'interferon feline side effects' - because I"ve been
using it in cats since 1991 and already know there are none at that dose and
route. I rely on peer-reviewed veterinary journals, veterinary medical
texts and about 45 years of direct personal experience . I've been studying
this disease and treatments since it was discovered in the '60s. Ohio State
is working a new treatment that looks very promising, but it hasn't
undergone enough testing.

I want you to post the URLs so I can see who published the bogus information
and possibly correct it so others won't be misled as you have been.



I understand your frustration, but please remember that
you have not seen the cat.What I see is a healthy-
looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. His
unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable
improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday.

What part of "asymptomatic" don't you understand? Most cats in the early
stages of FeLV infection appear perfectly healthy for months.


The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep
refrigerated, says:

INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION
GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS,
SKIP A WEEK [etc]

There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or
on the invoice.

That *IS* the LOW DOSE. protocol. 1 ml contains 30 IU. Its a very weak
dilution of a 3 million IU solution.


"IMMUNE STIMULATING AGENTS
There are numerous products on the market claiming to stimulate the immune
system of the FIV+ cat. These include Acemannan, levamisole, Immunoregulin®,
and interferon alpha. None of these products have been shown definitively to
be helpful though it appears that they certainly do not do any harm. Our
hospital recommends interferon alpha for asymptomatic cats as it is
relatively inexpensive and our impression is that it helps. Interferon alpha
is used in an extremely dilute form (not the much higher anti-viral doses)
and is used as a salty liquid added to the cat's food or administered orally
on a daily basis."
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body..._fiv__cat.html

Side Effects
.. Cats: Side effects due to low dose oral protocols are rare. Parenteral
treatment carries a higher incidence of side effects, particularly malaise,
and flu-like symptoms and less commonly fever, allergic reactions. Bone
marrow suppression has been reported in humans.
http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/mon...eron-alpha.asp



All it says about the test is:

Leukemia/FIV test 35.50

That's about the cost of a Snap test. An IFA is about $50.


I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about
the kind of test done. As I said before, the cat was
kept overnight for the test and other things done
(ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). Normally,
for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are
done quickly and in my presence. But in this case
the vet didn't do anything in my presence. He
called me the next day to talk things over, but since
I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough
to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc.

Why not call your vet tomorrow- don't wait until you finish the antibotics?

On May 25, 4:49*am, "Phil P." wrote:
"calvin" wrote in message

...
On May 24, 2:55 am, "Phil P." wrote:



*Where* on the internet? Post the URLs. Does the information apply
*specifically* to cats? I think the information your read was extrapolated
from human studies.

If you want reliable information that pertains specifically to cats, read
Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook. Plumb's is the #1 veterinary drug
handbook.

"Adverse Effects/Warnings - When used orally in cats, adverse effects have
apparently not yet been noted. When used systemically in humans, adverse
effects have included anemia, leukope*nias, thrombocytopenia,
hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, changes in taste sensation, anorexia,
nau*sea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, "flu-like" syndrome, transient
hypotension, skin rashes and dry mouth. Except for the "flu-like "syndrome
most adverse effects are dose related and may vary depending on the
condition treated."

"When used orally in cats, adverse effects have apparently not yet been
noted." Is that clear enough for you? If not, see the #2 veterinary drug
handbook: "Saunders Handbook of Veterinary Drugs" by Mark Papich-
Professor
of Clinical Pharmacology at NC State.

"Adverse Effects

Adverse effects have not been reported in animals. In humans, IM and SC
administration are associated with influenza-like syndrome. Many other
adverse effects have been reported in people, including bone marrow
suppression."

Now you have information from *reliable* sources. Now what's your excuse?
If you're going to believe what you read on the internet- at least make
sure
its from reliable sources and pertains to *cats*.

So are diabetes, heart disease, CRF and a list of other diseases.

I told you, tell your vet you want the IFA (immunofluorescent antibody
assay). A positive result means the infection has reached the bone marrow
and the cat is persistently infected.

You're *still* not getting it! The reason for giving your cat interferon
is
so he *doesn't develop symptoms for a longer period of time* and may even
help your cat clear the virus. If you wait for your cat to develop
symptoms- it will be too late- interferon won't help at that point.

You should research FeLV so you understand how the disease progresses-
because you obviously don't know what your dealing with. There are 5
stages
of the disease- You have to stop it at Stage 2 and no later than Stage 3.
Here's a brief outline:

. (1) viral replication in tonsils and pharyngeal lymph nodes;





(2) infection of a few circulating B lymphocytes and macrophages that
disseminate the virus;
(3) replication in lymphoid tissues, intestinal crypt epithelial cells,
and
bone marrow precursor cells;
(4) release of infected neutrophils and platelets from the bone marrow
into
the circulatory system; and
(5) infection of epithelial and glandular tissues, with subsequent
shedding
of virus into the saliva and urine

An adequate immune response stops progression at stage 2 or 3 and forces
the
virus into latency. Persistent viremia (stages 4 and 5) usually develops
4-6
weeks after infection, but could take as long as12 weeks. You're cat
could
be persistently infected but asymptomatic for weeks to months or even
years-
depending on the virus subgroup.

Now do you understand what the rush is to being IFN therapy?
I asked you to post the dose and route of administration the vet wrote on
the perscription but you did not. I'm asking you again: Post the dose in
IU
and route (PO, SC, IM).
I wish you wouldn't put so much time and effort into this.

I don't mind. *I'm used to trying help cats suffering from C.O.S. Its what I
do.

Just accept the fact that interferon treatment for this cat
is being delayed until my vet explains the risks, which
I should have asked him to do, but had not yet become
alarmed.

Your vet didn't explain the risks to you because there are *none* at that
dose and route. I posted two highly credible sources that should have
convinced you. *Will you believe your vet when he tells you the same thing?

You can Google 'interferon feline side effects' and you
will see many hits, some of which support your claims,
and some of which support my fears.

I don't have to Google 'interferon feline side effects' - because I"ve been
using it in cats since 1991 and already know there are none at that dose and
route. *I rely on peer-reviewed veterinary journals, veterinary medical
texts and about 45 years of direct personal experience . I've been studying
this disease and treatments since it was discovered in the '60s. *Ohio State
is working a new treatment that looks very promising, but it hasn't
undergone enough testing.

I want you to post the URLs so I can see who published the bogus information
and possibly correct it so others won't be misled as you have been.

I understand your frustration, but please remember that
you have not seen the cat.What I see is a healthy-
looking energetic affectionate cat with a huge appetite. *His
unhealthy-looking skin and fur has undergone a remarkable
improvement since antibiotics were started last Tuesday.

What part of "asymptomatic" don't you understand? *Most cats in the early
stages of FeLV infection appear perfectly healthy for months.

The vet's label on the bottle of interferon, which I keep
refrigerated, says:
INTERFERON ORAL SOLUTION
GIVE 1 ML DAILY FOR 7 DAYS,
SKIP A WEEK [etc]
There is nothing more specific, either on the bottle or
on the invoice.

That *IS* *the LOW DOSE. protocol. 1 ml contains 30 IU. *Its a very weak
dilution of a 3 million IU solution.

"IMMUNE STIMULATING AGENTS
There are numerous products on the market claiming to stimulate the immune
system of the FIV+ cat. These include Acemannan, levamisole, Immunoregulin®,
and interferon alpha. None of these products have been shown definitively to
be helpful though it appears that they certainly do not do any harm. Our
hospital recommends interferon alpha for asymptomatic cats as it is
relatively inexpensive and our impression is that it helps. Interferon alpha
is used in an extremely dilute form (not the much higher anti-viral doses)
and is used as a salty liquid added to the cat's food or administered orally
on a daily basis."http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_owning_an_fiv__cat..html

Side Effects
. Cats: Side effects due to low dose oral protocols are rare. Parenteral
treatment carries a higher incidence of side effects, particularly malaise,
and flu-like symptoms and less commonly fever, allergic reactions. Bone
marrow suppression has been reported in humans.http://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/mon...eron-alpha.asp

All it says about the test is:
Leukemia/FIV test *35.50

That's about the cost of a Snap test. An IFA is about $50.

I gave the price only in case it gives you a clue about
the kind of test done. *As I said before, the cat was
kept overnight for the test and other things done
(ear treatment, de-worm, rabies shot). *Normally,
for my other cats, de-worm and rabies shot are
done quickly and in my presence. *But in this case
the vet didn't do anything in my presence. *He
called me the next day to talk things over, but since
I had not Googled anything yet, I didn't know enough
to talk about possible side effects, quality of life, etc.

Why not call your vet tomorrow- don't wait until you finish the antibotics?

I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

On May 25, 9:12*am, calvin wrote:
I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
low dose. *What I read on the internet shows the Greek
letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. *But I give
up and will do whatever the vet says. *He can take the
blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Clarification: It was what I read on the internet about the low dose.

"calvin" wrote

[...]

I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Calvin. Arguing with Phil is dumb enough, but now that you are actually
second-guessing both he AND your vet, that's a bit much.
You're WRONG. Let it go. It happens to the best of us.

"calvin" wrote in message
...
On May 25, 9:12 am, calvin wrote:
I started the interferon today, but I don't believe it is the
low dose. What I read on the internet shows the Greek
letter alpha after the name and says that it is given every
day, not by the seven-on seven-off sequence. But I give
up and will do whatever the vet says. He can take the
blame if harm is done, though it shouldn't be about blame;
it should be about compassion for the poor cat.

Clarification: It was what I read on the internet about the low dose.

**** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical treatment
of cats, believe me.

On May 25, 11:35*am, "cybercat" wrote:
Calvin. Arguing with Phil is dumb enough, but now that you are actually
second-guessing both he AND your vet, that's a bit much.
You're WRONG. Let it go. It happens to the best of us.

Dude, I don't need you coming in here now to flame me after
I've already acquiesced and started doing it as the vet prescribed.
You're late, and your input is not needed, since I'm obeying
the vet.

As for arguing with Phil, I don't know him from any other
usenet poster, since this thread is my first contact with
him. Until your barging into it, this thread has been civil.
Now please go away.

On May 25, 11:37*am, "cybercat" wrote:
**** the Internet, Calvin. Any idiot can post anythign on the web. You are
living proof of it. Google Phil a bit more and see where he gets his
information. He has saved lots of cats' lives around here, and at home in
NY. You have better things to do than argue with Phil over medical treatment
of cats, believe me.

See response to your previous post.