Outdoor cat poisoning - report back

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
...

You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
instead
of rhetoric - my bad!


Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
the assholes that they are.

"ceb" wrote in message
...
(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
:

If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.


Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
pets due to an accident.

I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned, repeatedly,
that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT* listen to those
warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those warnings should be
ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how they lost their cat (usually
giving the rest of us gratuitous and graphic descriptions of how mangled the
cat was when it was found). I would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to
suffer and die because her person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or
just plain too lazy, to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding
environment for their cat.

What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?

That would be tragic. But an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child or an adult
has knowledge that can not be imparted to an animal. Humans above a certain
age know what a red light or "don't walk" sign means. Humans above a
certain age would not eat rat poison out of someone's garden. Humans
(excepting hormonally-challenged male teenagers) don't usually fight tooth
and claw over territory. Humans can do millions of things, and make
informed and reasoned decisions that an animal simply can not.

Accidents happen, and we take risks every day. My cat is happier if she
gets to go outside sometimes. So she and I take that risk. I find it
shocking that people would then not give me any sympathy if something
happened to her. I wouldn't treat other people that way.

Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much happier she
is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then please ask her to
call and tell me how much happier she is by getting to go outside. What's
that? She can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know that
she is happier than if she were to stay inside? How has she told you that
she understands, has weighed, and accepts the risks of going outside.

You find it shocking that some people would not give you any sympathy if
something happened to your cat? Well I find it shocking that you would
place your cat in a situation where something awful *could* happen to her.
Again, I have a *LOT* of sympathy for your *cat*! As for me, unless one of
my cats accidently gets outside without me catching her and meets with
tragedy before I can catch her and bring her back inside, I won't *have* to
come here and ask for your sympathy.

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

"Mary" wrote in message
...

You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic instead
of rhetoric - my bad!

Hugs,

CatNipped

"ceb" wrote in message
...
(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t7uk$o97$0
:

Gee, we have a leash law here. Doesn't stop children from maimed by
dogs, or a neighbor's chicken getting killed in my backyard by a
different neighbor's loose dog. I didn't even know we had chickens in
the neighborhood.


Better keep those kids and chickens inside... it sounds like bad things
happen outside. It might be best if we all stayed inside all the time too.


Cats and cars do not mix unless you like your cats dead. And there
are cars everywhere. You are wrong, and a danger to your cats.
The outdoors is great for them if you are with them, and they are
harnessed, or if they are in a safe enclosed space. Otherwise, you
are endangering them. They will not know this until they are bleeding.
However, you have the forebrain and the gd thumbs. You should
know better.

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Do you let your kids out, or keep them indoors all day as well?

Well, I wouldn't let my child (baby/toddler) who couldn't yet understand and
speak my language wander about unattended.
If I had a child, until that child was old enough to know enough to be safe,
that child would be accompanied by an adult at all times.

My cats go out on a lead/harness or they go outside in an enclosed space on
my balcony. I leash my dog, too. She might get hurt if she wandered about
freely. Go figure.

Do you let your kids wander the neighborhood unattended?
If so, would they like some candy?

[ okay, I'm going to hell. so sorry. ]

--
--
~kaeli~
A bicycle can't stand on its own because it is two tired.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

"Mathew Kagis" wrote in message
news:KkA4e.3079$jR3.2141@edtnps84...


--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Oh sweetie, I'm perfectly calm. To my knowledge I haven't called anyone
any
names in these threads (and if I've just forgotten and I have, please
point
it out so I can apologize). I *am* stating my opinions firmly because I
care very much about the welfare of cats - *all* cats. Even if it
doesn't
worry you to let your cats out, it worries *me* for them!

No, you have'nt gotten into namecalling. Although you did call Ashley
ignorant & (his?Her?) argument seems pretty well reasearched.

Ignorant is not an insult, at least not to me, it means only that you have
not yet been informed or have learned some fact. The extent of my ignorance
on most things is immense. Ashley's arguments are not researched at all.
She did a quick google, found *one* site that sides with her point of view
and posted that (and as someone else pointed out this is a site that gives
only opinions and has not posted any proof to back up those opinions). As
for what her vet said, well did you read what my vet had to say in the
separate thread I posted? ;

Please do not
misunderstand, I worry EVERY time I let the hoolikittens out. I've taken
what precautions I can with that, I've spent lots of time out there with
them, made sure they're afraid of cars (If I start up my van, they bolt
for
the cat door), discouraged leaving the yard (muscat is good for this,
chablis I've seen crossing the road)... Usually their forays into the
outside world don't last more than a couple of hours at a time (less if
the
weather is foul), if they last longer, I go looking for the missing feline
&
so far have always found them, in the yard, mucking about, looking at me
like 'Gee hooman, don't be so uptight'. So, I worry & let them have their
open air fun.

Are the happier? I'll repeat what I just wrote in another post... Really?
Please ask your cats to write to me and tell me how much happier they are by
getting to go outside. Oh, they can't write? Then please ask them to call
and tell me how much happier they are by getting to go outside. What's
that? They can't speak either? Then please, pray tell, how do you know
that they are happier than if they were to stay inside? How have they told
you that they understand, have weighed, and accept the risks of going
outside. By their behavior??? Look up anthropomorphism. You can not
possibly know what goes on inside your cats' minds, you can only project
onto them what you think you would prefer. I can give just as valid an
argument by saying my cats are *MUCH* happier by staying inside. How can
either of us prove that. I *CAN* prove, however, that my cats are *SAFER*
inside.


On the other side of the argument, however, I have read
"obsessive-compulsive", "over-egged" (whatever the heck that means!),
"holier-than-thou pontificating", and in lots and lots of other words
(which
I don't have the time now to google) the implication that Americans are
being overly risk conscious, unaware that the world exists outside of
their
borders, and basically have our collective heads up our collective
posteriors (just another angle of America bashing when it gets down to
it -
very condescending).

No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness' in
the USA has cranked up several notches about everything!

Nope, just doesn't wash. Bandit has been inside only since 1990 - *LONG*
before 9/11, *LONG* before we even thought terrorism could touch us here in
the US.

Heavily encouraged
by your Government.... And why not? A paranoid population is way easier to
controll. It's happened to a smaller degree here in Canada, we passed a
security bill too... But it's kind of like a 'Diet Patriot Act'... Still
bad
for you, but easier to swallow.

[OT] I totally agree and I'm doing everything in my power to change that -
but that has *NOTHING* to do with whether or not I keep my cats inside.

Back to cats... As much as I worry when I
let the furballs out, I've spent enough time with them outside to know
they
LOVE it! And I want my hoolikittens to be happy... So I swallow my fear
&
let them play.

Gee, mine play constantly - with the thousands of toys I've bought for them,
with *me* mostly (using either the cat dancer, any number of stick and
string toys, the laser pointer), and with each other. And the 15-year-old,
never *EVER* having been injured or faced with disease from the outdoors, is
just as jaunty and playful as the 1-year-old. Happy? See my argument
above. [Basically... my cats are happier than your cats nyah, nyah, nyah -
prove me wrong!]


However, I am getting out of this debate. As I told Ashley, I'll only
bang
my head against a brick wall until it hurts, not until I'm bloodied and
obviously everything I've had to say on this subject has fallen on deaf
ears
(er, eyes). I will keep your kitties, and Ashley's kitties, in my
prayers
and sincerely hope that I don't see anyone here again posting about how
they
lost their precious cats to the dangers of the outside world.

Thanks, I hope I never have to post a missing/killed by car post myself.
Id
be devestated.

I hope you never do either. I can't imagine how devastated I would be if
something were to happen to one of my babies, but I *REALLY* can't imagine
how wracked with guilt I would be if it were something I could have
prevented from happening just be taking the extra time and effort to keep
them inside.


Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
Megan,
Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long
time,
since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a
guestimate
of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",
or
"Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
Ten,
twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?

Chablis has had a couple of abcesses, highly treatable.... Bottom line, I
respect your choice to have indoor only pets... Please give us
indoor/outdoor pet folks the same courtesey... Luv ya.

Bandit, 15 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc., 1 bad burn caused
by a vet (that wouldn't have happened inside my home).

Demi, 6 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

Jessie, 5 years old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

Sammy, 1 year old - 0 abcesses, 0 cat fights, 0 scratches/bites/etc., 0
diseases, 0 encounters with poisons/dogs/cars/sickos/etc.

You and others here claim that these abcesses and other illnesses and
injuries are easily treated, but each time a cat has to fight off disease or
infection they're not only diminishing their overall health they are taking
time off their lifespan, and, getting back to the "happier" theme, how happy
can an injured or ill cat be really?

Luv ya back!

Hugs,

CatNipped

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

"CatNipped" wrote in
:

Really? Please ask your cat to write to me and tell me how much
happier she is by getting to go outside. Oh, she can't write? Then
please ask her to call and tell me how much happier she is by getting
to go outside. What's that? She can't speak either? Then please,
pray tell, how do you know that she is happier than if she were to
stay inside? How has she told you that she understands, has weighed,
and accepts the risks of going outside.


Well, she sits by the door and cries to be let out. On nice days she
cries extra. She flies out the door when I open it for her. She stays out
for a while sometimes and is clearly enjoying herself.

Now, I wouldn't let her do whatever she wants just because she cries.
After Madeline's surgery, she cried at the door A LOT and I didn't let
her out because she was still recovering.

Rosalie lived the first 3 years of her life outside. As I have said
before, I have known cats who, as a result of living outside, never want
to go outside again. I thought Rosalie might be one of them, but I was
wrong. I would have preferred for my own sake that she be indoor only,
but since she likes going out and is pretty cautious, I do let her
sometimes.

Nickleby was indoor-only and was a very happy cat. Even after we got
Madeline, and she started going outside, Nickleby went out very rarely,
and then usually only if I went out with him. He wanted to be with me.
That's just the way he was. I wouldn't force a cat outside who didn't
want to go, and I wouldn't keep a cat inside all the time who wanted to
go out, given a reasonably safe environment.

I am not saying anything about the decisions you make for your cats. I
don't really see this as a moral issue about which there is a right and a
wrong. All along I have just been trying to explain that it is possible
to *adore* one's cats and make a different decision about the whole
indoor/outdoor question. You seem to disagree.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

"Mary" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
...

You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

Well, I'm still fairly new to usenet so I guess I'm expecting logic
instead
of rhetoric - my bad!


Just like I expect people to be fair. But at least you're doing better
than I am handling it, as you don't regularly get mad and call them all
the assholes that they are.

LOL, I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm from New Orleans and was
raised by a true Southern Belle. The madder we get, the quieter we get and
the more we start using endearments. When I heard my mother whisper,
"Darlin' girl, get your sweet self over here and let your momma look at your
precious face, angel!", I knew I was in a *world* of sh*t! ;

In polite Southern society it would never do to point out someone's bad
manners or other faults - it's like you would treat a puppy who runs into a
room full of guests, wagging his tail, and then poops on the rug. A
Southern lady would not only pretend it hadn't happened, she would make
every guest *believe* it never happened!

It's usually not necessary to point out when someone is showing their
ignorance, most of the time all you have to do is stand back and let them
make a fool of *themselves*! But I'm finding out that that's not always the
case on usenet. Oh well, as my mother says, it takes all kinds!

Hugs,

CatNipped

"CatNipped" wrote in
:

I find it hard to sympathize with people who have been warned,
repeatedly, that allowing cats to go outside is hazardous and do *NOT*
listen to those warnings, in fact give specious arguments why those
warnings should be ignored, and *THEN* come back and cry about how
they lost their cat (usually giving the rest of us gratuitous and
graphic descriptions of how mangled the cat was when it was found). I
would sympathize with the *CAT* who had to suffer and die because her
person was too irresponsible and thick-headed, or just plain too lazy,
to go to the effort of providing a safe rewarding environment for
their cat.


What is up with the ad hominem attacks on this group??? We disagree. That
doesn't make me irresponsible, thick-headed, or lazy.

--
Catherine
& Rosalie the calico

In article ,
enlightened us with...
(Meghan Noecker) wrote in news:d2t87m$o97$1
:

If you want to risk your cat's lives, that's your problem. But it is
really frustrating when most people who complain their cat was hit by
a car are people who let the cat out in the first place. Very few are
accidental escapes. Most could have been prevented easily.


Really? I don't find it hard to sympathize with people who have lost their
pets due to an accident.

What if an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child gets hit by a car? What if an
adult gets hit by a car? Who was supposed to keep them inside and safe?


See, your opinion of the intellect of the average cat differs from mine and
Mary's. We don't equate the cat to an old-enough-to-be-out-alone child or an
adult.

If a parent lets their 3 year old out and the kid gets hit by a car, wouldn't
you blame the parents as well as the driver, even if you did still feel a bit
sorry for all involved?

If an 11 year old gets hits by a car, we feel differently toward the parents
than if a 3 year old gets hit by a car, presuming both were out unattended.
You feel that the cat is more like the 11 year old than the 3 year old. I
feel the opposite (as does Mary, I believe).

And yes, I DO blame the owner if the cat was purposefully let out to *wander*
and it gets hit by a car. I also blame the driver and I also feel sorry for
the owner, but there's blame as well as sympathy for all involved, IMO.
(assuming the driver is a human being and hit the cat by accident and feels
really bad about it)

It comes back to how I feel about my own cats and myself. If I let my cat out
and she got hit, I'd blame myself. No different for anyone else. Except I
know how guilty I'd feel, so I'd feel sorry for the other person, too.

--
--
~kaeli~
A man's home is his castle..., in a manor of speaking.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace