Aaagh, I can't make a decision

Kraut / Larry Stark wrote:

On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:02:44 +0100, Jack Campin
wrote:

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill, that's
true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty subdued. But
she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.
Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now.

If you can get a second opinion done quickly, fine. But remember
Catnipped's description of what perforated bowel and peritonitis
feels like. I wouldn't risk it if I were in your position.

Just make you decision based on what is best for the cat and not on
how YOU feel which it sounds like you are doing.

"...it sounds like you are doing" what? Deciding based on what's best for
the cat? Or what's best for me? FYI, it's the former. I'm not trying to
hang onto her for my sake. She hasn't even lived with me for 2 years.
I just don't see any point in putting her down before it's necessary.

How would you feel
if something happened and Smudge died a painfull death?!?!? Would you
feel better then?? If you do not trust the vets opinion why do you go
to him / her??

No need to get self-righteous about it. You're totally misreading my
intentions here. I suggest you actually find out why I'm questioning my
decision before going off on an overly punctuated rant.

Joyce

--
Afrikaans is Loldutch. -- LexMortis

wrote
Yowie wrote:

For what its worth, Joyce, I can't possibly imagine you doing anything
other than the very best you can possibly do for your cats.

Same here.

I'm so so sorry you have to make the decision, its heartbreaking even
when you know thats its 110% the right decision to make.

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill, that's
true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty subdued. But
she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

That could be the neighbor didn't see it.

If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you. Cheryl - I'm sorry I got defensive before. I wish
I could promise I won't get defensive again, but the truth is, I'm pretty
on edge. I'll try not to, though!

It's ok Joyce. It's a really hard call to make. Many (most?) of us have
been there before and many here who have not yet, will in time.

My 'hobby' if you want to call it that is adopting rescues or fostering them
and finding new homes. I did cats from 1978-2001 and by late 80's on, was
mostly the 'harder ones' meaning geriatric cats with major medical issues or
ferals who needed a lot of socialization. Often I was just providing a
'final home'. I didn't take many at once (top number was 6 at a time but
that was just 2 weeks when a set with a new home had to stay with me an
extra 2 weeks due to a house closing delay by new owners after I'd already
picked up the 2 new ones to rehab). Normally, 2-3 at a time.

There is no 'one signal' that all cats show when it's time. Only knowing
the cat will tell you. Looking from the outside and just at this message (I
see there are unread below it) it sounds like it's not time 'yet'. It may
even be a case where letting her pass quietly at home is best.

Let me express a bit more on that. Since we came back stateside from a 7
year set of tours in Japan (no pets, couldn't guarentee able to take them
back with us and no assurance of rehoming them there unlike the final 2 we
rehomed before leaving the USA) we have yet another 'hard case' in her final
home. She's a young lady cat, Daisy-chan. She is a restored true feral and
will not accept another cat (never will). For the next 10-15 years she will
be the only cat here. So, we take in rescue dogs (Daisy-chan LOVES dogs).

'Uncle Sammy' we took in at age 17 and I assure you, for most dog breeds
that's a heck of a lot older than a 17 year old cat. Sammy they estimate
was about 5 years past when a dog of his type normally has passed on. Every
day was a blessing. When he started to fail at last, it was about 2 weeks.
He had several vet trips and it was clear, he was best to let pass silently
at his final home. He was on pain meds for his arthritis and we had clear
instructions to up them at need as well as how many would 'have him sleep
his last' *if* it seemed wise (or where to take him if we felt a shot was
needed to assist him). Uncle Sammys quality of life stayed high enough and
his pain level 'his normal, handled with his meds for the last 7 years'
right to the end. He skipped dinner and took a nap and died in his sleep.

Smudge may go the same. Though it's clear her health is failing, not all of
our loved ones need to have a hand to reach the rainbow bridge. There's a
huge difference in 'lethargic, moving slow' and 'in pain'. Only you though
can tell which it seems to be. Vets can make educated guesses but they
can't really tell.

We also keep a close eye on Aunti Mabel here. She's a 14YO dog we recently
got (5 months ago). She's a pain hider and very good at it. She seems to
think 'pain is normal so ignore it'. She had surgery to remove cancer of
the colon last month. If it was effective, she'll be ok a few years maybe
but if not, she'll probably need help over the bridge. In her case, the
danger is sudden blockage and rupture. She's on a quarterly MRI for signs
of growth but a lot can happen in 3 months.

I've rambled on but I hope I have helped settle your soul a little as you
decide what is best based on your knowledge of your loved one.

On 6/04/2011 8:50 PM, wrote:
Yowie wrote:

For what its worth, Joyce, I can't possibly imagine you doing anything
other than the very best you can possibly do for your cats.

I'm so so sorry you have to make the decision, its heartbreaking even
when you know thats its 110% the right decision to make.

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill, that's
true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty subdued. But
she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now. What if I just let her be, and when the time
comes, she'll let me know? Is that a cruel thing to do? I'd be risking
her having a rupture - but then again, that's only what this one vet
told me - a vet I had never met before today. She certainly seemed
competent and she was very nice, but even nice, competent vets can be
wrong.

So I'm mostly playing devil's advocate with myself, since earlier I
was presenting the opposite argument, the one in favor of euthanizing
right away. I just want to look at it from various angles before I
make an irreversible decision.

So for the moment, I'm thinking I won't take her tomorrow night, unless
she takes a sudden turn for the worse. I need some time to think about
what's the right thing to do, and talk it over. The idea that I have
to decide *really fast* is making my head spin. Well, that and the
fact that it's 3:40 in the morning and I really should have gone to
bed hours ago!

If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you. Cheryl - I'm sorry I got defensive before. I wish
I could promise I won't get defensive again, but the truth is, I'm pretty
on edge. I'll try not to, though!

Oh Joyce, its a horrible decision to make and anyone who has been in the
same situation can sympathise.

What I am going to say next is my experience. It is not "advice" because
I am in no position to tell you what you should do in this situation.

I've been in the situation you are in twice. Shmogg had kidney failure,
Fluffy had breast cancer.

In both cases it was quite clear then end was going to be 'soon' but we
didn't know when exactly. Both times, we were looking at quality of life
issues as there was no possibility of recovery.

Both times, I am wracked with guilt. Both times, I think we left it too
long. In Shmogg's case, I think I left *far* too long, I was in a sort
of denial because he was still eating just fine even on the morning we
sent him to Rainbow Bridge. And I was in denial about his quality of his
life, too, because The Yowlet took up so much of my time, and Shmogg
would still come to my lap and purr in the evenings that I didn't get to
see him not be himself at the other times. I had actually made the
appointment 3 days ahead, so I could steel myself for it, and the last
night he had, he spent in my lap, a bag of bones purring away. I think
we forgave each other all the BCTs and BHTs that night, and he went to
The Bridge with my hand upon his side. But I am always left to wonder:
would it have been kinder to let him go earlier?

And Fluffy, she had breast cancer - in 3 months the marble size mass had
grown into a tennisball, but for most of those 3 months, she was just
fine. It was in the last week or two that she noticabley slowed down
(she was an old dog anywat), and stopped being interested in her food.
And the horrible thing was, we tried and tried to get her to eat rather
than accepting that this was the sign we'd all agreed meant that she was
ready to go.

But the worst part, the bit I'll never forgive myself for, is that I had
promised her that when her time was close, she could sleep on my bed.
And that I'd take her to the dog-friendly beach so she could chase
seagulls and see the ocean before she left. But she didn't get to do
either of those things because I hadn't gotten around to them in time. I
am a terrible procrastinator.

And the absolute worst part is that it was Cary's job to let her out of
the garage in the morning, and on the day before, he'd forgotten his
job. Usuually, if he had forgotten, FLuff would scratch at the door to
be let out as soon as she could hear her humans were awake. But her last
full day on earth was spent alone, in the garage, her family having
forgotten about her because by that time she was unable to scratch on
the door or whine to be let out - and we relied on those signs just as
much remembering to do it. I will never know whether, in truth, I should
have let her go the day before, the day she spent in the garage.

I can only tell you she was in an aweful state the morning we rushed her
to the vet fo the final mercy. And that image of my beloved Fluffy,
struggling to breath, clearly close to death, but still having enough
Fluffsterness in her to manage a wag, and a small lick, breaks my heart
every time I think about it, and I think about it far too often.

So Joyce, I can't tell you what to do. You'll no doubt second guess
yourself a million or more times in the next few hours and days. It will
break your heart to see Smudge go - we all know that. What I don't want
you to have, on top of that, though, is the guilt I carry around with me
every day that out of my own selfishness and laziness, I prolonged the
suffering of beings that I allegedly loved stupid. How much love did I
really show when they needed me most? Thats a question that will haunt
me till I die - its not a burden I would inflict on anyone.

Others may well have the flipside of that burden, of sending an animal
to the Bridge prematurely. Perhaps others will speak of how that feels.
But from my perspective a few days or weeks early after a long and
fulfilling life, so as to prevent any suffering, is far less of an
injustice than going a few days or weeks late, and allowing them to
suffer unnecessarily.

This however, is just my opinion. It is not advice. I know you will not
make the decision rashly or in haste, and will at all times be thinking
of what is best for Smudge. Purrs for strength when you heart is
breaking: its a tough gig.

Yowie

"Mishi" wrote
bast wrote:

So I'm mostly playing devil's advocate with myself, since earlier I

My criteria for the last "gift" is their pain - are they in any pain?
My Tanglefoot (RB) had lymphosarcoma in his intestines, and our vet
told us that he wasn't in any pain, so we took him home. He died 3
days later, while laying on his daddy's lap. We took turns holding him
his last day, so he wouldn't die alone. If he had been in pain, he
wouldn't have left the vets.

Well put Patti. I have a few other things to watch than pain in Aunti
Mabel's case (dog) but it's not related to Smudge.

I am sad that Smudge has these issues but feel good about his 'meowmie'
taking care of him right.

"Jack Campin" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill, that's
true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty subdued. But
she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.
Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now.

If you can get a second opinion done quickly, fine. But remember
Catnipped's description of what perforated bowel and peritonitis
feels like. I wouldn't risk it if I were in your position.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I was in septic shock and unconscious
and *still* arched myself off the gurney, *screaming* in pain when the
doctor just touched me.

But I don't want to tell anyone what to do - but I hope Joyce remembers that
cats hide their pain *extremely* well.

--
Hugs,

CatNipped
See all our masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped

See the RPCA FAQ site, by Mark Edwards, at:
http://www.professional-geek.com/rpcablog/

Email: L(dot)T(dot)Crews(at)comcast(dot)net

"catlady" wrote in message
...
If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you.

Joyce,
It's very understandable that you are having a hard time making a
decision. I think most of us have gone through this at one time or
another. However, in this instance I truly believe that waiting is
not the right thing to do. The ultrasound has told the story, and if
the intestine is at serious risk of being perforated as the vet says
and there is a lot of cancer showing up, to take the chance of waiting
could result in disaster (which happens usually in the middle of the
night or on the weekend.) Cats are survivors, and this is why they are
so good at hiding discomfort and pain. What Smudge is feeling is
probably 100 times worse than what she is showing and the fact that
she is still eating doesn't mean a whole lot. Contrary to the popular
belief, our pets don't necessarily "let us know when it's time" and
that belief has sometimes cost many pets unnecessary pain and
suffering.

I lost two cats 3 weeks apart in January. One had squamous cell
carcinoma and the treatment we tried had failed and it was going into
his brain. The whole time he had a great attitude and was eating like
a horse. I wanted him to live forever. However, he started to have
horrible diarrhea and the day he laid in it and didn't seem to be
bothered I knew that it was time. He still ate like a horse and had a
good attitude, but I could tell things were going south. To keep him
going and continually bath him would have stripped him of his dignity
and I would have been doing it for me, not him. We spent the day
together and I gave him any treat he wanted. The vet came to my home
and after he gave him the first shot (to sedate him) I gave him his
most favorite treat ever. He literally fell asleep doing one of his
favorite things- licking Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream from a spoon. He
the got the final shot and passed immediately. It was a decision I
didn't want to make, but when it came down to keeping him from
suffering and maintaining his dignity, I had to put everything I felt
aside and make the decision based solely on *him.*

I agree with everything you've written, Because Ben was so adamant that I
not "kill" Bandit, and talked me into waiting, Bandit had to endure 2 days
(Saturday and Sunday) of pain. It wasn't until he saw her fall down as she
was walking that he agreed we had waited too long. I'll always regret
putting her through that. I did have the vet come to my house and her last
day was very much as you described of your fur-baby.


--
Hugs,

CatNipped
See all our masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped

See the RPCA FAQ site, by Mark Edwards, at:
http://www.professional-geek.com/rpcablog/

Email: L(dot)T(dot)Crews(at)comcast(dot)net

On Apr 6, 11:29*am, catlady wrote:
If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you.

Joyce,
It's very understandable that you are having a hard time making a
decision. I think most of us have gone through this at one time or
another. *However, in this instance I truly believe that waiting is
not the right thing to do. The ultrasound has told the story, and if
the intestine is at serious risk of being perforated as the vet says
and there is a lot of cancer showing up, to take the chance of waiting
could result in disaster (which happens usually in the middle of the
night or on the weekend.) Cats are survivors, and this is why they are
so good at hiding discomfort and pain. *What Smudge is feeling is
probably 100 times worse than what she is showing and the fact that
she is still eating doesn't mean a whole lot. Contrary to the popular
belief, our pets don't necessarily "let us know when it's time" and
that belief has sometimes cost many pets unnecessary pain and
suffering.

I lost two cats 3 weeks apart in January. One had squamous cell
carcinoma and the treatment we tried had failed and it was going into
his brain. The whole time he had a great attitude and was eating like
a horse. I wanted him to live forever. However, he started to have
horrible diarrhea and the day he laid in it and didn't seem to be
bothered I knew that it was time. He still ate like a horse and had a
good attitude, but I could tell things were going south. To keep him
going and continually bath him would have stripped him of his dignity
and I would have been doing it for me, not him. We spent the day
together and I gave him any treat he wanted. The vet came to my home
and after he gave him the first shot (to sedate him) I gave him his
most favorite treat ever. He literally fell asleep doing one of his
favorite things- licking Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream from a spoon. He
the got the final shot and passed immediately. It was a decision I
didn't want to make, but when it came down to keeping him from
suffering and maintaining his dignity, I had to put everything I felt
aside and make the decision based solely on *him.*

I wish I thought of giving a treat to Rusty after the first shot.
I just sat there crying, talking to and patting him.
When the vet was about to give him the final shot, Rusty raised his
head and yowled at him. It was as if Rusty knew what was happening.
The vet said he just got swore at. I added "for the last
time by Rusty".

On 4/6/2011 11:29 AM, catlady wrote:
It was a decision I
didn't want to make, but when it came down to keeping him from
suffering and maintaining his dignity, I had to put everything I felt
aside and make the decision based solely on *him.*

Megan I'm sorry you lost two so close together. But you are
anthropomorphizing the dignity part. Really.

On Apr 6, 8:28*pm, Cheryl wrote:
On 4/6/2011 11:29 AM, catlady wrote:

It was a decision I
didn't want to make, but when it came down to keeping him from
suffering and maintaining his dignity, I had to put everything I felt
aside and make the decision based solely on *him.*

Megan I'm sorry you lost two so close together. *But you are
anthropomorphizing the dignity part. *Really.


FYI the dictionary definition of Dignity: The state or quality of
being worthy of honor or respect.


Cheryl:

I am sorry that you do not have the empathy necessary to recognize
what it means to a cat to have to defecate in place and lie in his own
feces because he had lost the awareness to do otherwise. I am also
sorry that you disparage compassion by hurling what is supposed to be
an insult. By doing so in the way that you have, you forget that we
are *all* animals after all. It behooves those of us who share our
lives with animals and purport to love them to profoundly respect them
and their needs.

In ,
typed:
Yowie wrote:

For what its worth, Joyce, I can't possibly imagine you doing
anything other than the very best you can possibly do for your cats.

I'm so so sorry you have to make the decision, its heartbreaking even
when you know thats its 110% the right decision to make.

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill,
that's true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty
subdued. But she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps
going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now. What if I just let her be, and when the
time comes, she'll let me know? Is that a cruel thing to do? I'd be
risking her having a rupture - but then again, that's only what this
one vet told me - a vet I had never met before today. She certainly
seemed competent and she was very nice, but even nice, competent vets
can be wrong.

So I'm mostly playing devil's advocate with myself, since earlier I
was presenting the opposite argument, the one in favor of euthanizing
right away. I just want to look at it from various angles before I
make an irreversible decision.

So for the moment, I'm thinking I won't take her tomorrow night,
unless she takes a sudden turn for the worse. I need some time to
think about what's the right thing to do, and talk it over. The idea
that I have
to decide *really fast* is making my head spin. Well, that and the
fact that it's 3:40 in the morning and I really should have gone to
bed hours ago!

If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you. Cheryl - I'm sorry I got defensive before. I
wish I could promise I won't get defensive again, but the truth is,
I'm pretty on edge. I'll try not to, though!

I don't have any information on intestinal cancer.

What I have, though, is experience watching two most beloved critters become
victim of uncurable, fatal diseases.

This may or may not apply to you. This is just my 'story'. It is not
'advice'.

With both Shmoggleberry & Fluffy, but particularly with Fluffy, I am still
wracked with guilt about their last days on earth. I think I left the last,
and greatest, mercy, a few days late. Perhaps there was a bit of selfishness
involved (I cannot entirely dismiss that, although I will to my death bed
insist that if there was selfishness involved, it was not in any way a
concious choice) but mostly because I didn't really know or perhaps
acknowledge the signs of an animal in distress, but doing their level best
to hide it. By the time Shmogg & Fluff go went to the Bridge, they weren't
just suffering a little bit, but hiding it well, but were in obvious
near-death discomfort, their joy-de-vivre gone, not just 'declining'.

But it is with 20/20 hindsight I can see these things. I could not see it
then, in the situations that surrounded their death. I wonder, now, whether
prolonging their lifes for a day, two days, 3 days, was worth the pain that
they went through in those 1, 2 or 3 days. What would have been the greater
crime - shortening their life by 1, 2 or 3 days when there was some life
worth living left, or prolonging the pain and suffering for 1, 2 or 3 days
when I could have put them out of their misery earlier?

Even though I may well make the same choices I made with Shmogg & Fluff in
the future, and live to regret it for the rest of my days, looking back, I
wish I had given them the last mercy before the suffering becamse so great
that it was utterly *obvious* to this dumb human. I think the kinder option
would be to deny them a day or two of life that they'd enjoy, rather
allowing them to experience all of their 'good' days at the price of some
bad and avoidable days too. Ideally, we'd pick the exact point where they've
lived all the life they want to live, but before the point where it is only
misery, but I suspect that most of us miss that fleeting second and err one
way or another.

Its an extremely tough call, and I would not wish it on anyone, even though
everyone here has volunteered to experience it.

Many hugs and purrs to you.

Yowie