Aaagh, I can't make a decision

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:47:40 +1000, "Yowie"
wrote:

In ,
typed:
Yowie wrote:

For what its worth, Joyce, I can't possibly imagine you doing
anything other than the very best you can possibly do for your cats.

I'm so so sorry you have to make the decision, its heartbreaking even
when you know thats its 110% the right decision to make.

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill,
that's true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty
subdued. But she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps
going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now. What if I just let her be, and when the
time comes, she'll let me know? Is that a cruel thing to do? I'd be
risking her having a rupture - but then again, that's only what this
one vet told me - a vet I had never met before today. She certainly
seemed competent and she was very nice, but even nice, competent vets
can be wrong.

So I'm mostly playing devil's advocate with myself, since earlier I
was presenting the opposite argument, the one in favor of euthanizing
right away. I just want to look at it from various angles before I
make an irreversible decision.

So for the moment, I'm thinking I won't take her tomorrow night,
unless she takes a sudden turn for the worse. I need some time to
think about what's the right thing to do, and talk it over. The idea
that I have
to decide *really fast* is making my head spin. Well, that and the
fact that it's 3:40 in the morning and I really should have gone to
bed hours ago!

If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you. Cheryl - I'm sorry I got defensive before. I
wish I could promise I won't get defensive again, but the truth is,
I'm pretty on edge. I'll try not to, though!

I don't have any information on intestinal cancer.

What I have, though, is experience watching two most beloved critters become
victim of uncurable, fatal diseases.

This may or may not apply to you. This is just my 'story'. It is not
'advice'.

With both Shmoggleberry & Fluffy, but particularly with Fluffy, I am still
wracked with guilt about their last days on earth. I think I left the last,
and greatest, mercy, a few days late. Perhaps there was a bit of selfishness
involved (I cannot entirely dismiss that, although I will to my death bed
insist that if there was selfishness involved, it was not in any way a
concious choice) but mostly because I didn't really know or perhaps
acknowledge the signs of an animal in distress, but doing their level best
to hide it. By the time Shmogg & Fluff go went to the Bridge, they weren't
just suffering a little bit, but hiding it well, but were in obvious
near-death discomfort, their joy-de-vivre gone, not just 'declining'.

But it is with 20/20 hindsight I can see these things. I could not see it
then, in the situations that surrounded their death. I wonder, now, whether
prolonging their lifes for a day, two days, 3 days, was worth the pain that
they went through in those 1, 2 or 3 days. What would have been the greater
crime - shortening their life by 1, 2 or 3 days when there was some life
worth living left, or prolonging the pain and suffering for 1, 2 or 3 days
when I could have put them out of their misery earlier?

Even though I may well make the same choices I made with Shmogg & Fluff in
the future, and live to regret it for the rest of my days, looking back, I
wish I had given them the last mercy before the suffering becamse so great
that it was utterly *obvious* to this dumb human. I think the kinder option
would be to deny them a day or two of life that they'd enjoy, rather
allowing them to experience all of their 'good' days at the price of some
bad and avoidable days too. Ideally, we'd pick the exact point where they've
lived all the life they want to live, but before the point where it is only
misery, but I suspect that most of us miss that fleeting second and err one
way or another.

Its an extremely tough call, and I would not wish it on anyone, even though
everyone here has volunteered to experience it.

Many hugs and purrs to you.

Yowie


I've said this many times and I'll say it again. You can't win this
argument because our cats can't talk so we don't know what they would
want us to do. We go by the slightest clues, the eyes look alert,
he/she ate a little bit, he/she is lying in the sunlight, the tail is
erect. Was that a purr or a moan?

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

All we can do is our best, and we're not going to be happy with that.
I think that I made Nico suffer for months on chemo and a feeding tube
and all sorts of crap. All because I didn't want to let him go but I
bet Nico has forgiven me.

dgk wrote:

I've said this many times and I'll say it again. You can't win this
argument because our cats can't talk so we don't know what they would
want us to do. We go by the slightest clues, the eyes look alert,
he/she ate a little bit, he/she is lying in the sunlight, the tail is
erect. Was that a purr or a moan?

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

All we can do is our best, and we're not going to be happy with that.

Thanks for saying this. It's just a bad set of choices and none of them
are going to feel good. And then it's hard not to equate "I don't feel good"
with "I made a mistake".

Joyce

--

wrote in message
...
dgk wrote:

I've said this many times and I'll say it again. You can't win this
argument because our cats can't talk so we don't know what they would
want us to do. We go by the slightest clues, the eyes look alert,
he/she ate a little bit, he/she is lying in the sunlight, the tail is
erect. Was that a purr or a moan?

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

All we can do is our best, and we're not going to be happy with that.

Thanks for saying this. It's just a bad set of choices and none of them
are going to feel good. And then it's hard not to equate "I don't feel
good"
with "I made a mistake".

Joyce

Right. It's also true that whenever a loved one dies, even if we didn't
have any choice in the matter, we manage to find something to feel guilty
about.

Hugs and purrs,

Joy

On 9/04/2011 12:11 AM, dgk wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:47:40 +1000, "Yowie"
wrote:

In ,
typed:
Yowie wrote:

For what its worth, Joyce, I can't possibly imagine you doing
anything other than the very best you can possibly do for your cats.

I'm so so sorry you have to make the decision, its heartbreaking even
when you know thats its 110% the right decision to make.

Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill,
that's true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty
subdued. But she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps
going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

Now I'm wondering if I should get a second opinion. I was thinking
that I could get the pictures from the ultrasound and bring Smudge in
to a different vet and show them the pictures - maybe they'd interpret
them differently? The woman who read the results said there's a tumor
"perforating", which I guess means it's starting to poke through the
intestinal wall? She also saw many little growths throughout Smudge's
abdomen. So I'm not doubting she has cancer. I'm just not sure she has
to be euthanized right now. What if I just let her be, and when the
time comes, she'll let me know? Is that a cruel thing to do? I'd be
risking her having a rupture - but then again, that's only what this
one vet told me - a vet I had never met before today. She certainly
seemed competent and she was very nice, but even nice, competent vets
can be wrong.

So I'm mostly playing devil's advocate with myself, since earlier I
was presenting the opposite argument, the one in favor of euthanizing
right away. I just want to look at it from various angles before I
make an irreversible decision.

So for the moment, I'm thinking I won't take her tomorrow night,
unless she takes a sudden turn for the worse. I need some time to
think about what's the right thing to do, and talk it over. The idea
that I have
to decide *really fast* is making my head spin. Well, that and the
fact that it's 3:40 in the morning and I really should have gone to
bed hours ago!

If anyone has any thoughts, information, suggestions, etc, I'd really
like to hear from you. Cheryl - I'm sorry I got defensive before. I
wish I could promise I won't get defensive again, but the truth is,
I'm pretty on edge. I'll try not to, though!

I don't have any information on intestinal cancer.

What I have, though, is experience watching two most beloved critters become
victim of uncurable, fatal diseases.

This may or may not apply to you. This is just my 'story'. It is not
'advice'.

With both Shmoggleberry& Fluffy, but particularly with Fluffy, I am still
wracked with guilt about their last days on earth. I think I left the last,
and greatest, mercy, a few days late. Perhaps there was a bit of selfishness
involved (I cannot entirely dismiss that, although I will to my death bed
insist that if there was selfishness involved, it was not in any way a
concious choice) but mostly because I didn't really know or perhaps
acknowledge the signs of an animal in distress, but doing their level best
to hide it. By the time Shmogg& Fluff go went to the Bridge, they weren't
just suffering a little bit, but hiding it well, but were in obvious
near-death discomfort, their joy-de-vivre gone, not just 'declining'.

But it is with 20/20 hindsight I can see these things. I could not see it
then, in the situations that surrounded their death. I wonder, now, whether
prolonging their lifes for a day, two days, 3 days, was worth the pain that
they went through in those 1, 2 or 3 days. What would have been the greater
crime - shortening their life by 1, 2 or 3 days when there was some life
worth living left, or prolonging the pain and suffering for 1, 2 or 3 days
when I could have put them out of their misery earlier?

Even though I may well make the same choices I made with Shmogg& Fluff in
the future, and live to regret it for the rest of my days, looking back, I
wish I had given them the last mercy before the suffering becamse so great
that it was utterly *obvious* to this dumb human. I think the kinder option
would be to deny them a day or two of life that they'd enjoy, rather
allowing them to experience all of their 'good' days at the price of some
bad and avoidable days too. Ideally, we'd pick the exact point where they've
lived all the life they want to live, but before the point where it is only
misery, but I suspect that most of us miss that fleeting second and err one
way or another.

Its an extremely tough call, and I would not wish it on anyone, even though
everyone here has volunteered to experience it.

Many hugs and purrs to you.

Yowie


I've said this many times and I'll say it again. You can't win this
argument because our cats can't talk so we don't know what they would
want us to do. We go by the slightest clues, the eyes look alert,
he/she ate a little bit, he/she is lying in the sunlight, the tail is
erect. Was that a purr or a moan?

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

All we can do is our best, and we're not going to be happy with that.
I think that I made Nico suffer for months on chemo and a feeding tube
and all sorts of crap. All because I didn't want to let him go but I
bet Nico has forgiven me.



Exactly. Thankyou for being able to say what I wanted to say, but didn't
manage.

Yowie

wrote:
Except now, I'm wracked with indecision. I've had Smudge with me in
the computer room for several hours, and, I don't know, it's pretty
hard to believe she could be that close to death. She looks ill, that's
true - she's moving slowly and her personality is pretty subdued. But
she really likes the crunchies I put down and she keeps going back
and eating them. All told, she hasn't made a big dent in the bowl, but
she's nibbled at them quite a few times. She's also drinking water,
which my neighbor said she wasn't doing. Maybe he just didn't see her
drink.

I'm so sorry to hear this. I just love Smudge! She sounds like such a
philosopher. I think I know too how cruel a kitty's cancer can be, to
both kitty and human.

It can be very frustrating standing by and watching this slow motion
train wreck. But like a kaishakunin, it's our duty to watch carefully
and trust our best judgment.

On Apr 8, 7:11*am, dgk wrote:

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

Yeah when I took Fugazi to the vets after she'd suddenly (like within
24 hours) started to have fits and I was still hoping (whilst knowing
but not wanting to admit it) it was nothing serious our vet said she
wasn't suffering just yet and I could take her home to say our
goodbyes but needed to bring her back within a couple of days for the
final injection...and I didn't

I feel sad perhaps she could have had a couple of days she just seemed
to be out of it (I suspect the vet thought she wouldn't last the next
day and was trying to spare me the cost of euthanasia but I trust
Kylie and I don't think she would have said what she said if it wasn't
true)

Then again she hadn't liked the trip to the vets she didn;t like being
at the vets (when I got her out of the carrier she lashed out and
being this was Fugazi I knew how bad it was when she missed- the staff
at the clinic who did her spay said they'd neuteured completely wild
feral toms that gave them a lot less trouble) so I weighed up another
trip back in a cab then having to deal with Dave who would see me come
in with her and thought it was okay then another trip to the vets a
day or so later....so maybe she could have had another day or so she
might have even passed in her sleep at home but what if she didn't?
Did I really want to put an already sick cat through another trip to
an emergecy vet? To be brutually honest could I have the strenght to
put her in a carrier a day or so later and make the visit knowing how
it would be ending? I really wasn't sure...funnily enough when we were
going to the vet the driver had to get some petrol while he was
paying for it I looked in on her and she looked at me and I swear she
was telling me what I had to do however much it hurt me

And to this day I still wonder whether I did it too soon but I do know
I am a little happier at the thought that maybe it did it a few days
sooner than a few days later than I should have

It's the single worse thing about being a cat slave- Fugazi's over the
Bridge almost 11 years ago and I still wonder if I did the right
thing

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

"Lesley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 7:11 am, dgk wrote:

Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

Yeah when I took Fugazi to the vets after she'd suddenly (like within
24 hours) started to have fits and I was still hoping (whilst knowing
but not wanting to admit it) it was nothing serious our vet said she
wasn't suffering just yet and I could take her home to say our
goodbyes but needed to bring her back within a couple of days for the
final injection...and I didn't

I feel sad perhaps she could have had a couple of days she just seemed
to be out of it (I suspect the vet thought she wouldn't last the next
day and was trying to spare me the cost of euthanasia but I trust
Kylie and I don't think she would have said what she said if it wasn't
true)

Then again she hadn't liked the trip to the vets she didn;t like being
at the vets (when I got her out of the carrier she lashed out and
being this was Fugazi I knew how bad it was when she missed- the staff
at the clinic who did her spay said they'd neuteured completely wild
feral toms that gave them a lot less trouble) so I weighed up another
trip back in a cab then having to deal with Dave who would see me come
in with her and thought it was okay then another trip to the vets a
day or so later....so maybe she could have had another day or so she
might have even passed in her sleep at home but what if she didn't?
Did I really want to put an already sick cat through another trip to
an emergecy vet? To be brutually honest could I have the strenght to
put her in a carrier a day or so later and make the visit knowing how
it would be ending? I really wasn't sure...funnily enough when we were
going to the vet the driver had to get some petrol while he was
paying for it I looked in on her and she looked at me and I swear she
was telling me what I had to do however much it hurt me

And to this day I still wonder whether I did it too soon but I do know
I am a little happier at the thought that maybe it did it a few days
sooner than a few days later than I should have

It's the single worse thing about being a cat slave- Fugazi's over the
Bridge almost 11 years ago and I still wonder if I did the right
thing

Lesley

***

We always try to second-guess ourselves about heart-wrenching things like
this. However, we did what we thought was best at the time, and that's all
anybody can do.

Joy

Joy wrote:
"Lesley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 8, 7:11 am, dgk wrote:
Either we feel bad because we made them suffer too long, or we feel
that we killed them when there was still a decent quality of life. How
can you win this? How can we do other than feel that we made a
mistake?

Yeah when I took Fugazi to the vets after she'd suddenly (like within
24 hours) started to have fits and I was still hoping (whilst knowing
but not wanting to admit it) it was nothing serious our vet said she
wasn't suffering just yet and I could take her home to say our
goodbyes but needed to bring her back within a couple of days for the
final injection...and I didn't

I feel sad perhaps she could have had a couple of days she just seemed
to be out of it (I suspect the vet thought she wouldn't last the next
day and was trying to spare me the cost of euthanasia but I trust
Kylie and I don't think she would have said what she said if it wasn't
true)

Then again she hadn't liked the trip to the vets she didn;t like being
at the vets (when I got her out of the carrier she lashed out and
being this was Fugazi I knew how bad it was when she missed- the staff
at the clinic who did her spay said they'd neuteured completely wild
feral toms that gave them a lot less trouble) so I weighed up another
trip back in a cab then having to deal with Dave who would see me come
in with her and thought it was okay then another trip to the vets a
day or so later....so maybe she could have had another day or so she
might have even passed in her sleep at home but what if she didn't?
Did I really want to put an already sick cat through another trip to
an emergecy vet? To be brutually honest could I have the strenght to
put her in a carrier a day or so later and make the visit knowing how
it would be ending? I really wasn't sure...funnily enough when we were
going to the vet the driver had to get some petrol while he was
paying for it I looked in on her and she looked at me and I swear she
was telling me what I had to do however much it hurt me

And to this day I still wonder whether I did it too soon but I do know
I am a little happier at the thought that maybe it did it a few days
sooner than a few days later than I should have

It's the single worse thing about being a cat slave- Fugazi's over the
Bridge almost 11 years ago and I still wonder if I did the right
thing

Lesley

***

We always try to second-guess ourselves about heart-wrenching things like
this. However, we did what we thought was best at the time, and that's all
anybody can do.

Joy



'''''''''''''''"AMEN!"

Takayuki wrote:

I'm so sorry to hear this. I just love Smudge! She sounds like such a
philosopher. I think I know too how cruel a kitty's cancer can be, to
both kitty and human.

Please see my other post in the "Smudge is dying" thread.

I like that you called her a philosopher. She was a very intelligent
cat with a complex personality.

It can be very frustrating standing by and watching this slow motion
train wreck.

I wish it had been slower than it was. It all happened so fast that not
all parts of my brain have heard the news yet. Tonight when I got home
from work and was getting my stuff out of the car, I saw a cat walking
toward me out of the corner of my eye, and for a second, I thought it was
Smudge. It was Graham, a neighbor's cat. It was the weirdest thing. I
know after a cat is gone, how you can keep thinking you see the cat out
of the corner of your eye - I experienced that after Tika died. But this
was different, I actually *thought* it was Smudge for a brief moment.

Joyce

On Apr 14, 1:48*am, wrote:
Takayuki wrote:

* I'm so sorry to hear this. I just love Smudge! She sounds like such a
* philosopher. I think I know too how cruel a kitty's cancer can be, to
* both kitty and human.

Please see my other post in the "Smudge is dying" thread.

I like that you called her a philosopher. She was a very intelligent
cat with a complex personality.

* It can be very frustrating standing by and watching this slow motion
* train wreck.

I wish it had been slower than it was. It all happened so fast that not
all parts of my brain have heard the news yet. Tonight when I got home
from work and was getting my stuff out of the car, I saw a cat walking
toward me out of the corner of my eye, and for a second, I thought it was
Smudge. It was Graham, a neighbor's cat. It was the weirdest thing.

Joyce, I'm so sorry you lost Smudge, but I am happy to hear you saw a
glimpse of her.
It's not weird at all and I don't believe it was your imagination. I
have had this same thing happen many times, and I think it's their way
of sending us a message that they are ok. Smudge is sending you a
message and you should embrace it. :-)


I know after a cat is gone, how you can keep thinking you see the cat out
of the corner of your eye - I experienced that after Tika died. But this
was different, I actually *thought* it was Smudge for a brief moment.


It probably was. It's funny because after I lost my most special cat
in the world ever, it took me a long time to come to terms with it and
I hoped for a glimpse of him but it didn't happen like it usuallly
does. But when it did about two months later, OMG. I'm talking full
body apparition and another experience a few weeks later that
underlined it and proved I wasn't imagining things. I'll never forget
it, and it inspired me to write this tribute which touches on the
experience you described:


In our time here on earth as ailurophiles, our paths will cross with a
few- or many- beings of the feline persuasion. They will love us
unconditionally, entertain us, exasperate us, take care of us, rescue
us and change our lives just a little bit- or sometimes dramatically.
Every cat we ever know is memorable for a myriad of reasons, but for
most of us, there is one in particular who somehow captures our heart
and mind like no other. They are enigmas who fill our souls with love
and emotions that are sometimes inconceivable and mystifying, yet we
accept it just as we accept that the sky is blue and water is wet. And
when their time here winds down and they pass from this existence,
they take a part of our soul with them and we are never the same. Yet,
even in the darkest days of grief from such a horrible loss, we never
forget how blessed we are to have shared such precious time with "the
one," and for the rest of our lives we will think of them often. We
will laugh remembering the amusing things they did, sigh wistfully
thinking of the love they shared, and shed many tears wishing they
were still with us, yearning to caress their velvety fur and hear the
rumble of their contented purr. And, if we are lucky in the years to
come, we may just catch a glimpse of them here and there as a magical
reminder that "the one" has never really left us.