Gobble Gobble

Marina wrote in message ...
CajunPrincess wrote:


[snip]

Hey now, for us who don't celebrate Thanksgiving, how about sharing some
recipes? So we can celebrate with you, at least in spirit. This stuffing
everyone talks about, what goes in it? I don't remember having
celebrated Thanksgiving when I lived in the US as a child, and Mum
wouldn't have known the recipes anyway.


Here's a few recipes for dishes that you would find at a lot of
Thanksgiving dinners (actually the Jalepeno Cornbread and the Spiced
Struedel Pumpkin Pie are slightly fancier versions of what you would
find in a lot of the Thanksgiving meals, but not that much different).
I think almost all of the ingredients could be found in Europe or
Australia but there may be one or two things that aren't sold outside
the US.

"Dressing" and "stuffing" are pretty much the same thing; it's
"stuffing" if you use it to stuff the turkey with; otherwise it's
"dressing". It turns out a little moister and denser if you use it to
stuff the turkey with and cook it along with the turkey but it's one
more thing to coordinate if you want to do it that way. You have to
be sure the stuffing gets to about 165 degrees F before you remove it
if you let it cook in the turkey.

CORNBREAD DRESSING

Seasoning:

2 teaspoons salt
1/2 teaspoon onion powder
1/2 teaspoon dried thyme leaves
4 tablespoons ground turmeric
1-1/2 teaspoons white pepper
1 teaspoon cayenne
1 teaspoon black pepper
1 teaspoon dried oregano leaves
1/2 teaspoon onion powder
1/2 teaspoon dried thyme leaves

Dressing ingredients:

6 ounces (or 1-1/4 stick) butter
3/4 cup onions, finely chopped
3/4 cup green bell peppers, finely chopped
1/2 cup celery, finely chopped
1 tablespoon minced garlic
2 bay leaves
3/4 pound turkey, duck or chicken giblets (I usually just use
whatever comes with the turkey), boiled until tender then finely
chopped
1 cup turkey, duck or chicken stock (I use the chicken stock
you buy at the store)
1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce
5 cups finely crumbled cornbread (see recipe below)
1-2/3 cups evaporated milk
3 eggs

Thoroughly combine the seasoning mix ingredients in a small bowl and
set
aside.

In a large skillet, melt the butter with the onions, bell
peppers, celery, garlic and bay leaves over high heat. Sauté about 2
minutes, stirring occasionally. Add the seasoning mix and continue
cooking until vegetables are just wilted. Stir in giblets, stock and
Tabasco. Cook for 5 minutes, stirring frequently. Remove from heat.
Add the cornbread, milk and eggs, stirring well. Spoon dressing into a
greased 9x13" baking pan. Bake at 350F until browned on top, about
35-40 minutes.



CORNBREAD

(See more elaborate recipe below; this simpler one would be better for
the stuffing)

1-3/4 cups all purpose flour
2/3 cup cornmeal
1/3 cup sugar
5 teaspoons baking powder
1/2 teaspoon salt

1-1/3 cups milk
5 tablespoons melted butter
1 egg, beaten

Preheat the oven to 350?F.

Combine the dry ingredients and mix thoroughly. Separately, combine
the milk, butter and egg and stir into the dry ingredients just until
no lumps are present. Pour into a greased loaf pan or square baking
dish and bake for about 50 minutes, or until a toothpick inserted into
the center comes out clean.

Many traditional cooks in the Southern part of the US shun cornbread
made with sugar in it; I've always liked it a little sweet. I like
the more traditional kind made without sugar too.


OYSTER DRESSING

Seasoning mix:

1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon garlic powder
1/2 teaspoon cayenne
1/2 teaspoon sweet paprika
1/2 teaspoon black pepper
1/4 teaspoon onion powder
1/4 teaspoon dried oregano leaves
1/4 teaspoon dried thyme leaves

Dressing ingredients:

About 20 small to medium oysters in their liquor, about 1/2
pound
1 cup cold water
6 ounces (1-1/2 sticks) butter
1-1/2 cups onions, chopped
1 cup celery, chopped
1 cup green bell peppers, chopped
1 teaspoon garlic, minced
1 cup very fine dry French bread crumbs
2 tablespoon unsalted butter, softened
1/2 cup green onions, chopped
1/2 cup parsley, finely minced

Combine the oysters and water; stir and refrigerate at least 1 hour.
Strain and reserve oysters and oyster water, refrigerate until ready
to
use.

Melt 4 tablespoons of the butter in a large skillet over high heat.
When butter is almost melted, add 3/4 cup of the onions, 1/2 cup
each of the celery and bell peppers. Sauté over high heat until onions
are dark brown but not burned, about 8 minutes, stirring frequently.

In a small bowl, combine the seasoning ingredients and mix well. When
onions are browned, stir 2 teaspoons of the seasoning mix and the
garlic into the skillet. Reduce heat to medium and continue cooking
for
5 minutes, stirring occasionally. Add the remaining 3/4 cup onions,
1/2
cup celery, 1/2 cup bell peppers and 1 stick margarine, and 1/4 cup of
the green onions, 1/4 cup of the parsley, and the bay leaves. Stir
until
butter is melted.

Continue cooking about 10 minutes, stirring occasionally. Stir in the
remaining seasoning mix and enough bread crumbs to make a moist but
not
runny dressing. Remove from heat. Stir in the drained oysters. Spoon
dressing into an ungreased baking pan and bake at 350F for 30 minutes.
Remove from oven, discard bay leaves and stir in the butter and the
remaining 1/4 cup each green onions and parsley.


SWEET POTATO CASSEROLE

3 cups cooked and mashed sweet potatoes (just boil them; remove the
skins and mash them up)
1 cup brown sugar (you can substitute molasses for some of the brown
sugar if it is available where you are; I like the additional flavor)
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
1/2 stick butter
1/2 teaspoon cinnimon


Mix indredients and pour into greased 2 quart baking dish

Topping

1 cup chopped pecans (optional)
1 cup dried coconut
1 cup brown sugar
1/2 stick butter
1/3 cup self rising flour


Mix together and pour over sweet potato mixture

Bake at 300 degrees F for 35 min.

This is one of my favorite dishes because it's so sweet it's like
eating a vegetable and a dessert at one time!


MASHED POTATOES (Basic recipe)

Ingredients:

2 pounds of potatoes (Any kind of baking potato with a non-waxy
skin will do; I like Yukons)
1 cup of half and half (or milk)
6 tablespoons of butter
Salt and pepper
Pinch nutmeg

Basic Instructions:

Peel and quarter the potatoes, then add to a large pot and cover with
water. Add some salt and bring to a boil and cook until the potatoes
are tender. (About 15 minutes); drain. Mash by your method of choice
eliminating most of the large lumps. (I use a tool called a "potato
ricer"; you can do it with a fork) Heat up milk to just below
simmering. Blend in butter and milk and mix until you end up with a
smooth consistency (if desired you can use a mixer and can make them
as fluffy as you like); season with salt and pepper.

Everyone used to think that mashed potatoes had to be fluffy and
completely free from lumps; but people now are making what are called
"smashed potatoes", where you use a little less milk and retain some
of the texture of the cooked potatoes instead of whipping the mixture
to a creamy, lumpfree consistency. I also like to leave about half
of the skins in the mashed potatoes; it gives it an interesting
consistency and contrast.

YELLOW SQUASH CASSEROLE

2 lb sliced yellow squash
2 eggs beaten
2 small onions minced
2-3 oz pimiento diced
2 tbsp butter melted
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon black pepper
1/4 teaspoon garlic powder
1 cup Ritz Brand Cracker crumbs (Ritz crackers are a buttery flavored
cracker, don't know if they are sold outside the US*)
1/4 teaspoon black pepper
1/4 teaspoon garlic powder
1-1/2 cups cheddar cheese (mild or medium; sharp doesn't work as
well) shredded
2-3 oz pimintoes (optional)
Dash of Worcestershire Sauce (optional)
A few drops Tabasco Sauce (optional)

*Can use any type of cracker crumbs or probably dried bread crumbs
would work also. In the US the term "cracker" is used for a sort of
unsweetened crisp flatbread as opposed to something sweet made with
sugar, etc. as the word is used in Britain (i.e. what we in the US
call a "cookie").

Simmer squash in water 10 min till tender, drain and mash. Saute onion
in butter till tender, combine with everything, reserving 1/4 cup of
the
Ritz cracker crumbs. Spoon into greased 2 qt casserole dish, top with
crumbs. Bake 350F for 45 min or until crust is brown.

GREEN BEAN CASSEROLE

4 cups cut green beans
2 Tablespoon butter
1 medium onion, coarsely chopped
1 cup fresh mushrooms
1 (10 3/4-oz.) can condensed cream of mushroom soup
1/2 Cup milk
1 (2.8-oz.) can French fried onions (like Durkee), divided
1 Tablespoon Worcestershire sauce
1 teaspoon vinegar
1 teaspoon brown sugar
1 1/2 teaspoon Dijon mustard
Salt and freshly ground pepper to taste

Melt the butter in a large frying pan. Add the onions and cook over
medium heat, stirring occasionally, until clear.

Clean the mushrooms and cut into quarters. Add to the sauteed onions
and cook, stirring occasionally, until they give up their liquid and
most of it has cooked off.

Preheat the oven to 350 degrees.

Stir the soup and the milk into the onion mixture. Add about half the
can of fried onions, then stir in the Worcestershire, vinegar, brown
sugar, mustard, salt and pepper. Stir in the green beans. Turn the
mixture into a 1 1/2-quart casserole dish and bake 25 minutes.
Sprinkle the remaining half-can of onions over the top of the mixture
and bake an additional 5 minutes.

JALEPENO CORNBREAD

3 cups Cornmeal
1/2 cup Flour
2 teaspoon Baking soda
2 teaspoon Salt
2 Tablespoon Sugar
3 Eggs; beaten
2 cups Buttermilk
1/2 cup sour cream
1/2 cup vegetable Oil
1 lg Onion
1/2 teaspoon Garlic powder
1/2 cup Jalapeno peppers; cup up
1 oz Pimiento; chopped
15 oz can Cream corn
1 1/2 cup cheddar Cheese; grated


Chop the onion and the jalapeno peppers finely. Mix together the
cornmeal, flour, soda, salt, and sugar in a large bowl. In a separate
bowl, whisk together the buttermilk, beaten eggs, and oil. Add to the
dry ingredients with a few strokes of the mixing spoon. Don't beat
the dough---just stir enough to moisten all the particles. Fold in
the
onion, garlic powder, jalapeno, pimiento, corn, sour cream and
cheese.
Bake in a cast iron skillet in a 400 degree oven for 25 to
30 minutes, until the top is browned and a toothpick tests clean.

POTATO ROLLS

2/3 cup sugar
2/3 cup shortening
1 cup cooked potatoes (peeled and boiled until done then mashed)
2 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 eggs
2 packages active dry yeast
1 1/3 cups warm water (110-115 degrees) divided
6 cups flour


In a large mixing bowl, cream sugar and shortening. Add potatoes salt
and
2 of the eggs. Dissolve the yeast in 2/3 cup of warm water in a bowl;
add to the creamed mixture. Beat in 2 cups flour and the remaining
water. Add enough remaing flour to form a soft dough. Shape into a
ball; do not knead. Place in a greased bowl. Cover with plastic wrap
and let rise in a
warm place until doubled, about 1 hour. Punch dough down; divide into
thirds. Shape each portion into 15 balls and arrange in 3 greased 9
inch
baking pans. Cover and let rise until doubled, about 30min. Make an
egg wash out of 1 egg and 1 tbs water; brush over rolls. Bake at 375
F for 20-25 minutes. Cool on wire rack to keep bottoms from becoming
soggy.

PUMPKIN PIE WITH SPICED WALNUT STREUSEL

I found this recipe on the web last year and tried it; it's a great
variation on traditional pumpkin pie. I used a frozen premade crust
instead of the making the crust myself; it might be even better with
the homemade crust. My sister is making pumpkin pie this year so I'll
have to wait to try the crust recipe.

Streusel

1/3 cup all purpose flour
1/4 cup (packed) golden brown sugar
1 tablespoon minced crystallized ginger
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg
2 tablespoons (1/4 stick) chilled unsalted butter, cut into cubes
1/3 cup walnuts, coarsely chopped

Pumpkin filling

1 15-ounce can pure pumpkin
1 cup white sugar
1/2 cup (packed) golden brown sugar
3 large eggs
1/2 cup (1 stick) unsalted butter, melted
1 teaspoon vanilla extract

Crust

1/4 cups all purpose flour
1/2 tablespoon sugar
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 cup (1 stick) chilled unsalted butter, cut into 1/2-inch cubes
3 tablespoons (or more) ice water

For crust:

Blend flour, sugar, and salt in processor. Add butter and cut in,
using on/off turns, until coarse meal forms. Add 3 tablespoons water.
Using on/off turns, blend just until moist clumps form, adding more
water by 1/2 tablespoonfuls if dough is dry. Gather dough into ball;
flatten into disk. Wrap in plastic; refrigerate 1 hour. (Can be made 2
days ahead. Keep chilled. Soften slightly at room temperature before
rolling.)

Roll out dough on lightly floured surface to 13-inch round. Transfer
to 9-inch deep-dish glass pie dish. Trim overhang to 1/2 inch. Fold
overhang under; crimp edges decoratively. Refrigerate 1 hour.

Preheat oven to 375?F. Line crust with foil. Fill with dried beans or
pie weights. Bake until edges begin to brown and crust is set, about
17 minutes. Remove foil and beans. Bake until golden brown, pressing
with back of fork if crust bubbles, about 5 minutes longer. Transfer
to rack. Maintain oven temperature.

For streusel:

Mix flour, sugar, ginger, cinnamon, and nutmeg in medium bowl. Add
butter; rub in with fingertips until coarse meal forms. Stir in nuts.

For pumpkin filling:

Whisk pumpkin, 1 cup sugar, and 1/2 cup brown sugar in medium bowl.
Whisk in eggs 1 at a time. Whisk in melted butter and vanilla. Pour
into prepared crust.

Sprinkle streusel over filling. Bake pie until streusel is golden and
filling is set, about 45 minutes. Cool on rack at least 2 hours. (Can
be made 6 hours ahead. Let stand at room temperature.)

Serve with sweetened whipped cream.

wrote in message
news
badwilson wrote:

On Friday I'm going to my
friend's in Bangkok for the traditional Thai holiday of Loy
Krathong.
We're going to launch our krathongs (slices of banana tree stem
decorated with banana leaves, flowers, candles and incense) in
one of
the klongs (canal) by her apartment building. Then we will cook
some
fajitas (not Thai but my friend is from Texas) and watch all the
other
candle lit krathongs float down the klongs from her 11th story
balcony.

Wow, that sounds beautiful! Think you could get some photos? I'd
love
to see what that looks like.

Sure, I plan on taking my camera. I hope it will turn out because it
will be dark out, but I have really good zoom and if I put it on my
tripod I can use the night setting with a long exposure. I'll see
what I can come up with.

I'm so happy I've got all these American friends, this way I
get 2 Thanksgivings a year. I had a Turkey Day already on
October
11th when I was home in Canada. I never say no to turkey ;-)

Lucky you!

I'm spending tomorrow cooking for the dinner I'm going to on Friday.
I'm going to bring: squash casserole, spinach pie, mashed potatoes,
and a fruit crisp. There will be plenty of other food, too.

Wow, you're bringing a lot! The party I'm going to has a lot of
people, so all my friend and I have to do is bring 2 different yam
dishes. I am going to help her make them on Saturday morning at her
house. I can't really make anything at home because I'd have to
schlepp it on a 2.5 hour bus ride, a taxi, a skytrain and a motorbike
taxi.
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

wrote in message
news
badwilson wrote:

On Friday I'm going to my
friend's in Bangkok for the traditional Thai holiday of Loy
Krathong.
We're going to launch our krathongs (slices of banana tree stem
decorated with banana leaves, flowers, candles and incense) in
one of
the klongs (canal) by her apartment building. Then we will cook
some
fajitas (not Thai but my friend is from Texas) and watch all the
other
candle lit krathongs float down the klongs from her 11th story
balcony.

Wow, that sounds beautiful! Think you could get some photos? I'd
love
to see what that looks like.

Sure, I plan on taking my camera. I hope it will turn out because it
will be dark out, but I have really good zoom and if I put it on my
tripod I can use the night setting with a long exposure. I'll see
what I can come up with.

I'm so happy I've got all these American friends, this way I
get 2 Thanksgivings a year. I had a Turkey Day already on
October
11th when I was home in Canada. I never say no to turkey ;-)

Lucky you!

I'm spending tomorrow cooking for the dinner I'm going to on Friday.
I'm going to bring: squash casserole, spinach pie, mashed potatoes,
and a fruit crisp. There will be plenty of other food, too.

Wow, you're bringing a lot! The party I'm going to has a lot of
people, so all my friend and I have to do is bring 2 different yam
dishes. I am going to help her make them on Saturday morning at her
house. I can't really make anything at home because I'd have to
schlepp it on a 2.5 hour bus ride, a taxi, a skytrain and a motorbike
taxi.
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

"jmcquown" wrote in message
.. .
badwilson wrote:
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! This Canadian living in Thailand has
a
great weekend of celebration lined up. On Friday I'm going to my
friend's in Bangkok for the traditional Thai holiday of Loy
Krathong.
We're going to launch our krathongs (slices of banana tree stem
decorated with banana leaves, flowers, candles and incense) in one
of
the klongs (canal) by her apartment building.

Ah, I remember that lovely holiday! The floating krathongs on the
klongs is
gorgeous!

This will be my first Loy Krathong in Bangkok. The other 3 times I've
been either here (Rayong) or in Krabi so it's been on the beach.
Somehow it doesn't work well on the beach because the waves topple the
krathongs over and they get swept right back in. So this will be nice
:-)

In Bangkok, on the Chayo Praya river, kids would dive in and swim
out to the
krathongs and steal the coins some people put in them.

Nice! Little thieves! There are a bunch of fancy dinners you can
attend at the big hotels on the Chayo Praya for Loy Krathong. Would
be nice, but they are over $100 US per person, not including drinks.
Forget it, I can spend my money in better ways.
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

"jmcquown" wrote in message
.. .
badwilson wrote:
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! This Canadian living in Thailand has
a
great weekend of celebration lined up. On Friday I'm going to my
friend's in Bangkok for the traditional Thai holiday of Loy
Krathong.
We're going to launch our krathongs (slices of banana tree stem
decorated with banana leaves, flowers, candles and incense) in one
of
the klongs (canal) by her apartment building.

Ah, I remember that lovely holiday! The floating krathongs on the
klongs is
gorgeous!

This will be my first Loy Krathong in Bangkok. The other 3 times I've
been either here (Rayong) or in Krabi so it's been on the beach.
Somehow it doesn't work well on the beach because the waves topple the
krathongs over and they get swept right back in. So this will be nice
:-)

In Bangkok, on the Chayo Praya river, kids would dive in and swim
out to the
krathongs and steal the coins some people put in them.

Nice! Little thieves! There are a bunch of fancy dinners you can
attend at the big hotels on the Chayo Praya for Loy Krathong. Would
be nice, but they are over $100 US per person, not including drinks.
Forget it, I can spend my money in better ways.
--
Britta
Sandpaper kisses, a cuddle and a purr. I have an alarm clock that's
covered in fur!
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album

CajunPrincess wrote:


Here's a few recipes for dishes that you would find at a lot of
Thanksgiving dinners (actually the Jalepeno Cornbread and the Spiced
Struedel Pumpkin Pie are slightly fancier versions of what you would
find in a lot of the Thanksgiving meals, but not that much different).
I think almost all of the ingredients could be found in Europe or
Australia but there may be one or two things that aren't sold outside
the US.


Wow, thank you for all the recipes. Re Ritz crackers, we have a brand
called Ritz. They are small and round and savoury, usually eaten with
cheese and fruit at the end of a meal. Next time in the shops, I'll have
to see where they're made.

--
Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

CajunPrincess wrote:


Here's a few recipes for dishes that you would find at a lot of
Thanksgiving dinners (actually the Jalepeno Cornbread and the Spiced
Struedel Pumpkin Pie are slightly fancier versions of what you would
find in a lot of the Thanksgiving meals, but not that much different).
I think almost all of the ingredients could be found in Europe or
Australia but there may be one or two things that aren't sold outside
the US.


Wow, thank you for all the recipes. Re Ritz crackers, we have a brand
called Ritz. They are small and round and savoury, usually eaten with
cheese and fruit at the end of a meal. Next time in the shops, I'll have
to see where they're made.

--
Marina, Frank and Nikki
marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi
Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/
and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Mischief wrote:
snip
I'm now trying to decide, should I give the kitties turkey or ham on
Thanksgiving?


Kristi

I imagine turkey would be much better for them.
--
Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.

Mischief wrote:
snip
I'm now trying to decide, should I give the kitties turkey or ham on
Thanksgiving?


Kristi

I imagine turkey would be much better for them.
--
Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.

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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:09:53 +0200, Marina
wrote:

CajunPrincess wrote:



This is why I think Thanksgiving is such a great holiday. It's
not about buying, it's about eating and being with people. Making
the meal isn't too huge of a deal because so much of the "comfort
food" that you make for Thanksgiving is pretty easy to prepare
(you have to really *try* to mess up mashed potatoes) and most of
the ingredients don't cost an arm and a leg. Probably because you
don't eat it all the time, I love turkey, especially the Cajun
fried turkeys; but done any way is great by me and it's another
item that's hard to mess up. Green bean casserole, sweet potato
casserole, squash casserole;
brocolli casserole (yep, I like casseroles); collard greens,
jambalaya, jalepeno cornbread, yeast rolls, dressing/stuffing
(probably the most involved dish if you want to be fancy), baked
beans and on and on. It's great to have Thanksgiving with family
but it's also nice to share it with people you aren't related to.

Hey now, for us who don't celebrate Thanksgiving, how about sharing
some recipes? So we can celebrate with you, at least in spirit.
This stuffing everyone talks about, what goes in it? I don't
remember having
celebrated Thanksgiving when I lived in the US as a child, and Mum
wouldn't have known the recipes anyway.

Here is one that I tried today for the first time. The combination
of flavors is unusual, but it proved to be tasty. This recipe was
broadcast on the "Morning Edition" news program on National Public
Radio, and is from host Susan Stamberg.

Mama Stamberg's Cranberry Relish

2 cups whole raw cranberries, washed
1 small onion
3/4 cup sour cream
1/2 cup sugar
2 tablespoons horseradish from a jar ("red is a bit milder than
white")

Grind the raw berries and onion together. ("I use an old-fashioned
meat grinder," says Stamberg. "I'm sure there's a setting on the
food processor that will give you a chunky grind -- not a puree.")

Add everything else and mix.

Put in a plastic container and freeze.

Early Thanksgiving morning, move it from freezer to refrigerator
compartment to thaw. ("It should still have some little icy slivers
left.")

The relish will be thick, creamy, and shocking pink. ("OK, Pepto
Bismol pink. It has a tangy taste that cuts through and perks up the
turkey and gravy. It’s also good on next-day turkey sandwiches, and
with roast beef.")

Makes 1 1/2 pints.

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--
John F. Eldredge --
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
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