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  #1  
Old July 14th 05, 12:41 AM
PawsForThought
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Default Questions for cat experts

Newbie wrote:
Again, for humans we would consider a paste-like diet to be terrible.
You want fiber, and stool, for overall health. What is best for cats?
Would it not be better for them to have pieces of meat to chew on,
rather than paste to lick?


That's one of the reasons I feed my cats a homemade raw diet. They get
all their nutritional requirements including exercise for their teeth
and jaw.

Lauren

See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe

  #2  
Old July 14th 05, 08:34 AM
Mary
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Default


"Dr.Carla,DVM" wrote in message
news:AMmBe.151052$x96.136860@attbi_s72...
1. How many meals per day?

Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it
may depend on the cat. I have 2 cats that will regulate themselves very
well, but I have 1 cat that will eat everything in sight as soon as he
sees it and then puke it up later. Depends on your schedule too. The
amount is more important whether the cat regulates himself or needs 5
pieces at a time a 100 times a day (like my cat).

2. Best feeding times?

1 big meal is not ideal. I prefer to have you start out putting out 1/2
her/his food in the a.m. and see how well he regulates himself, then the
other 1/2 in the late afternoon/early eve.

3. Dry/canned?

Dry is better for teeth, true. Canned is not superior, it depends on the
kinds of proteins in the meal, not whether or not the meal has been
watered down (which is what canned is). Dry makes for less smelly feces
in the litter box too. I use only dry and give canned as a treat or when
I need to give medications that I can crush up in the food. Dry foods
have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) although canned is more
palatable (generally tastes better).


4. What to look for in labels?/6. short list of premium brands

Awesome question!! Generally cheaper pet foods have more undigestable
proteins so even though the label may look comparable (calories, proteins
etc.) check to see how much of the food the cat needs to satisfy their
daily requirements. Hills, Iams, (the more expensive ones) Purina
(reasonably priced) are all awesome foods. I stay away from any brand you
don't recognize, just because if you check the label the cat probably
needs a lot more of that food (because of the undigestable proteins) than
the one that costs a little more. Also if you add it up...(# cups needed
and price per cup) they usually come out even or really close to it.
Never put your cat on a vegetarian diet unless you know the exact nutrient
requirements and can fufill them daily. Vege diets while fine for people
can kill a cat. Also don't put your cat on an all tuna diet, that also
leads to big trouble due to the lack of necessary nutrients.

5. One worry about "premium" cans: All of the so called premium (read
expensive) cans I have seen appear to contain food that looks like
paste.

Cats are that particular about what the food looks like as long as it fits
in their mouth and they can chew and swallow it. The more the food stinks
(to you) the more they seem to like it.

Your cat may turn out to be finicky, so you may have to try a few diets.
Generally once you find a diet stick to it, because they do have the
tendency to have pancreatitis (vomiting, diarrhea, won't eat) when their
food is changed often.

Oh and FYI, cats vomit. It happens, a lot. If your cat vomits without a
hairball for a couple days in a row though, talk to your vet.

Good luck


Thanks for your informative post, Carla. It is nice to see a vet posting
in these groups.


  #3  
Old July 14th 05, 05:58 PM
PawsForThought
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Default

Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:
3. Dry/canned?

Dry makes for less smelly feces in the
litter box too.


I have never found this to be true. In fact, I have found that the
feces from dry food are more voluninous as well as smelly. As to dry
verus canned, I have found this article by Dr. Zoran quite interesting.
Also, you might want to read some of Phil P's posts on the issue, as
well as this post I made yesterday regarding some studies done:
http://tinyurl.com/7syh7

Here is Dr. Zoran's article:
http://www.catinfo.org/zorans_article.pdf

I think overall a canned diet is healthier for cats.

LAUREN

See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe

  #4  
Old July 14th 05, 09:16 PM
Steve G
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Phil P. wrote:
(...)
Canned food is actually concentrated nutrition- that's why cats need to eat
*less* dry matter volume of canned food than dry to derive *more* nutrition.


Simultaneously, the cat will need to eat a larger volume of canned than
dry to get a given intake of kcal, and this can help promote satiety.
Can be important, esp. in relation to the high incidence of obseity in
pet cats.

(...)

That's not entirely accurate, either. Since dry food is generally less
digestible than an equal-quality canned food, the feces tend to be more
smelly and voluminous. The less digestible a food the greater the quantity
of feces produced.


I haven't made a study of ****-stinkiness (though it's right up there
on my to-o list), but I suppose a dry diet might lead to less odour if
the **** were less well hydrated - which will be the case.

(...)

Dry foods have a higher
calorie density (more cals/oz)



That's also not accurate. Canned food contains more protein and fat and
kcals on a dry matter basis than dry foods. That's why cats need to eat
less quantity of canned food than dry. See above.


Well, that's not entirely accurate, either...!

Dry food has a higher calorie density, as fed (but generally lower
density on a dry matter basis). Calorie density as fed is important in
this case because stomach distention / volume eaten is a factor in the
cat reaching satiety. For example, some research indicates that stomach
distention plays a role in one satiety mechanism (cholecystokinin - CCK
- mediated satiety). Certainly one reason why cats fed dry food have a
higher incidence of obseity is that the higher calorie density of dry
food (as fed) lead to lesser stomach-distention mediated satiety cues.

Steve.

  #5  
Old July 14th 05, 10:51 PM
Phil P.
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Default


"Steve G" wrote in message
oups.com...


Phil P. wrote:
(...)
Canned food is actually concentrated nutrition- that's why cats need to

eat
*less* dry matter volume of canned food than dry to derive *more*

nutrition.

Simultaneously, the cat will need to eat a larger volume of canned than
dry to get a given intake of kcal,


I don't think so. In a 3 oz can of cat food, all the nutrients, including
energy (kcals) are contained in only .66 oz of dry matter- the rest is
moisture. A cat needs to eat at least 1/4 cup of dry food to derive the
same or less nutrition. Only 10% of that volume is moisture- thus the cat
needs to eat more dry matter of dry food (3.6 oz) than canned (.66 oz) to
derive the same or less nutrition.

Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats less
food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and canned
food is sold in little cans.



and this can help promote satiety.
Can be important, esp. in relation to the high incidence of obseity in
pet cats.






(...)

That's not entirely accurate, either. Since dry food is generally less
digestible than an equal-quality canned food, the feces tend to be more
smelly and voluminous. The less digestible a food the greater the

quantity
of feces produced.


I haven't made a study of ****-stinkiness (though it's right up there
on my to-o list), but I suppose a dry diet might lead to less odour if
the **** were less well hydrated - which will be the case.



I don't think so. More water is lost to fecal moisture with dry food than
canned. The lower the food's digestibility, the more the cat must eat to
meet her caloric needs, and the greater the quantity of feces produced. The
greater the quantity of feces, the larger the percentage of water retained
in the intestinal tract and excreted in the feces. That's why dry fed cats
have lower urine volumes even though they drink more than 6x more water than
canned-fed cats.

Digestibility also affects fecal odor. The fact that dry food is less
digestible than equal-quality canned food also contributes to fecal odor.


(...)

Dry foods have a higher
calorie density (more cals/oz)



That's also not accurate. Canned food contains more protein and fat and
kcals on a dry matter basis than dry foods. That's why cats need to eat
less quantity of canned food than dry. See above.


Well, that's not entirely accurate, either...!

Dry food has a higher calorie density, as fed (but generally lower
density on a dry matter basis). Calorie density as fed is important in
this case because stomach distention / volume eaten is a factor in the
cat reaching satiety. For example, some research indicates that stomach
distention plays a role in one satiety mechanism (cholecystokinin - CCK
- mediated satiety).


Cats eat to meet their energy needs- humans eat to reach satiety. When
their energy needs are met cats stop eating- unless satiety cues are
overridden by exceptionally palatable diets or behavioral factors. Cats
need to eat a greater volume of dry food than canned to derive the same or
less nutrition.



Certainly one reason why cats fed dry food have a
higher incidence of obseity is that the higher calorie density of dry
food (as fed) lead to lesser stomach-distention mediated satiety cues.


Dry-fed cats are prone to obesity due to the higher carbohydrate content of
dry food.




  #6  
Old July 15th 05, 12:40 AM
Philip
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In ,
Mary stated unanimously:
"Dr.Carla,DVM" wrote in message
news:AMmBe.151052$x96.136860@attbi_s72...
1. How many meals per day?

Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it
may depend on the cat. I have 2 cats that will regulate themselves very
well, but I have 1 cat that will eat everything in sight as soon as he
sees it and then puke it up later. Depends on your schedule too. The
amount is more important whether the cat regulates himself or needs 5
pieces at a time a 100 times a day (like my cat).

2. Best feeding times?

1 big meal is not ideal. I prefer to have you start out putting out 1/2
her/his food in the a.m. and see how well he regulates himself, then the
other 1/2 in the late afternoon/early eve.

3. Dry/canned?

Dry is better for teeth, true. Canned is not superior, it depends on the
kinds of proteins in the meal, not whether or not the meal has been
watered down (which is what canned is). Dry makes for less smelly feces
in the litter box too. I use only dry and give canned as a treat or when
I need to give medications that I can crush up in the food. Dry foods
have a higher calorie density (more cals/oz) although canned is more
palatable (generally tastes better).


4. What to look for in labels?/6. short list of premium brands

Awesome question!! Generally cheaper pet foods have more undigestable
proteins so even though the label may look comparable (calories, proteins
etc.) check to see how much of the food the cat needs to satisfy their
daily requirements. Hills, Iams, (the more expensive ones) Purina
(reasonably priced) are all awesome foods. I stay away from any brand
you don't recognize, just because if you check the label the cat probably
needs a lot more of that food (because of the undigestable proteins) than
the one that costs a little more. Also if you add it up...(# cups needed
and price per cup) they usually come out even or really close to it.
Never put your cat on a vegetarian diet unless you know the exact
nutrient requirements and can fufill them daily. Vege diets while fine
for people can kill a cat. Also don't put your cat on an all tuna diet,
that also leads to big trouble due to the lack of necessary nutrients.

5. One worry about "premium" cans: All of the so called premium (read
expensive) cans I have seen appear to contain food that looks like
paste.

Cats are that particular about what the food looks like as long as it
fits in their mouth and they can chew and swallow it. The more the food
stinks (to you) the more they seem to like it.

Your cat may turn out to be finicky, so you may have to try a few diets.
Generally once you find a diet stick to it, because they do have the
tendency to have pancreatitis (vomiting, diarrhea, won't eat) when their
food is changed often.

Oh and FYI, cats vomit. It happens, a lot. If your cat vomits without a
hairball for a couple days in a row though, talk to your vet.

Good luck


Thanks for your informative post, Carla. It is nice to see a vet posting
in these groups.


Wonder how long it will be until you find cause to rip her to shreads.
Couple of weeks, tops?


  #7  
Old July 15th 05, 05:53 PM
PawsForThought
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Default

Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:
1. How many meals per day?

Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may
depend on the cat.


Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any
studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore
would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble?

  #8  
Old July 15th 05, 06:12 PM
rpl
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Posts: n/a
Default

PawsForThought wrote:
Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:

1. How many meals per day?


Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it may
depend on the cat.



Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any
studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore
would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble?


kibble does include animal products; it isn't really analgous to human
"breakfast cereal". YMMV depending on the brand/product.

As I've posted, the "kibble" part of their diet should be a brand that
they'll eat when hungry but not when bored (sortof like leaving celery
sticks out for the kids as opposed to chocolate chip cookies).


pat
  #9  
Old July 15th 05, 06:23 PM
Mary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"rpl" wrote in message
...
PawsForThought wrote:
Dr.Carla,DVM wrote:

1. How many meals per day?

Free choice (put it out and let the cat regulate itself) is best but, it

may
depend on the cat.



Can you please tell us why "free feeding" a cat is best, including any
studies that show it's beneficial to cats and how an obligate carnivore
would especially benefit from eating free fed kibble?


kibble does include animal products; it isn't really analgous to human
"breakfast cereal". YMMV depending on the brand/product.


Cats are carnivores. Humans are omnivores. So, yes, you're right,
it is not equivalent to human breakfast cereal in that the latter
actually meets some of our nutrition needs, whereas the corn meal
and other starchy fillers in dry food meet none of the cat's needs.



As I've posted, the "kibble" part of their diet should be a brand that
they'll eat when hungry but not when bored (sortof like leaving celery
sticks out for the kids as opposed to chocolate chip cookies).


This works well for one of my cats, as she stays skinny and is allergic
to many foods--but not the one brand of dry I use and the one brand
of canned. However, recommending free-feeding of dry to every cat
is not a good idea. First, they may learn to eat when bored; and second,
canned food is just much better for them due to the water content and
the nutrients.

Convenience is the only reason many people feed dry food, and it
may be the best reason. And not a very good one at that.


  #10  
Old July 15th 05, 07:28 PM
Steve G
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Posts: n/a
Default


Phil P. wrote:
"Steve G" wrote in message
oups.com...

(...)

I don't think so. In a 3 oz can of cat food, all the nutrients, including
energy (kcals) are contained in only .66 oz of dry matter-


Yes, but when considering stomach-distention related satiety
mechanisms, it's *not* the dry matter comparison that's the one of
interest: it's the volume as fed. Simply put, for a fixed calorie
intake a cat will need to eat more wet than dry food (inclusive of
water content) and this will lead to more immediate stomach distention.

Anyone who feeds canned food will tell you they need to feed their cats less
food than dry feeders. That's why dry food is sold in big bags and canned
food is sold in little cans.


Well, dry food is sold in large bags because it's more convenient to do
so, for manufacturer and pet owner - owner just needs to go to the pet
shop once every n-months for dry food. Not possible to practically
produce huge bags of wet food!

It's a funny comparison you've made there, really: A bag of dry food
lasts months, the same weight (as fed) of wet food lasts a far shorter
amount of time. Or, if you filled a can of cat food with dry kibble,
the cat of dry would contain more energy (as fed) than the same can
filled with wet food. Thus one reason why owners like dry food - it's
very convenient.

(...)


I don't think so. More water is lost to fecal moisture with dry food than
canned.


Yes, but does **** from dry actually reach the same level of hydration
as **** from canned? Certainly dry will extract water from the
intestine to a greater degree than canned, but I'm not sure than the
dry **** is as wet as the wet **** IYSWIM. (Is there a paper on
****-hydration, canned vs. dry? Now there's esoteria.)

(...)

Cats eat to meet their energy needs- humans eat to reach satiety.


The conventional meaning of 'satiety' in the nutrition literature is
(re. OED) 'satisfaction of a need (esp. hunger) as it is registered
physiologically'. In the literature *all* animals eat in order to
'reach satiety', where satiety refers to whatever mechanisms are at
work in the animal that lead to it stopping eating (e.g., energy
intake, stomach distention, amino-acid receptors in intestine,
mouthfeel / salivation, etc.). Satiety in animals can only be inferred
(i.e., they stop eating), but humans can be queried as to their desire
to continue eating.

In the cat, there is some research on stomach-distention mediated
satiety. Receptors that respond to stomach distention project to the
hypothalamus of the cat (Jeannigros & Mei, 1980, Brain Res 185:
239-251) and the hypothalamus is implicated in much homestasis,
including feeding. Indeed, some authors have termed the ventromedial
hypothalamus the 'satiety centre' of the brain. Schick et al. (1989; Am
J Physiol 256: R248-254) found that a cholecystokinin like subtance
(CCK-LI) increased in the hypothalamus of the cat in response to a
meal, *or* a gastric load with no nutritional value. As the authors
note in their asbtract:

'CCK supresses food intake in various species, and has therefore been
proposed to act as a satiety factor'

But it's complex: there are intestinal receptors that response to fats,
amino acids, and so on. Satiety is reached by some (unknown)
combination of responses from many mechanisms.

When
their energy needs are met cats stop eating- unless satiety cues are
overridden by exceptionally palatable diets or behavioral factors.


c.40% of US pet cats are overweight. In the practicalities of everyday
life, cats are not 'calorie counters'. In fact, cats are far less the
archetypal calorie counters than rats.

Cats
need to eat a greater volume of dry food than canned to derive the same or
less nutrition.


Again, not as fed - and when considering stomach-distention satiety,
the volume of food entering the stomach is the important thing.

(...)

Dry-fed cats are prone to obesity due to the higher carbohydrate content of
dry food.


Another possible component for sure (e.g., related to amino acid based
satiety? Jeannigros, 1983, Brain res Bull 10: 15-21), although a study
just out failed to find any relationship between the relative carb
content in a diet and weight loss (Michel et al.,2005; J Fel Med Surg,
in press):

"In conclusion, body condition and energy intake but not type of diet
influenced weight loss in this cohort of group-housed cats. Future
studies to investigate whether dietary carbohydrate intake affects food
intake and feeding behavior including satiety are warranted. "

In the above, 'type of diet' refers to either a relatively low-carb
(dry) diet or a conventional dry diet. However, the study is - IMO -
pretty wobbly on a few design grounds, so that I wouldn't be sure that
low and high carb diets are necessarily equally efficacious wrt weight
loss.

Steve.

 




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