Ann MArtin claims debate

"Phil P." wrote in message ...
"PawsForThought" wrote in message


Let's see if I can make this simpler. Martin claimed that there was
*TOXIC* levels of pentobarb in foods - your web site proved that was
NOT true. Nobody here has ever said there were never any traces found
in cheap foods.

But what is toxic exactly?

An amount that makes a cat sick or causes disease.... Duh!

And other then an eight week study that the FDA/CVM conducted on dogs
no other studies have been undertaken as to the toxicity of this drug
over a period of months or years. It's easy for people to say that
pentobarbital is not toxic but if it had no effect on animals why then
were these studies undertaken in the first place?

If a person feeds a food with even trace amounts of
pentobarb, ethoxyquin, BHT, BHA, etc., what is the effect over years of
feeding?

We do know that all the above do have an effect on humans and the
FDA/CVM has lowered the amounts of ethoxyquin allowed in pet food
because of illnesses in pets. In 1997 the FDA/CVM lowered the levels
from l50 ppm to 75 ppm.

You really are a scaremonger and have absolutely no clue about what you're
talking about. You just ramble on with the same scare tactics over and over
without ever providing a shred of evidence to support your bullsh!t.

You, like a few others on this list, are the ones that are full of
"bullsh!t."
You all resort to derogatory remarks when backed into a corner. With
people like you I'd tell Lauren, Megan, and a few others, don't waste
your time replying to people like this as their prime goal is to put
people down and avoid carrying on an intelligent discussion.

I and others have asked you a thousand times to cite a *single* case of
ethoxyquin, BHT, or BHA toxicity reported in a cat in the 20 years these
antioxidants have been used in pet foods. You have *never* *once* produced
a *single* credible reference. Not one. But you continue to use the same
scare tactics and imply there's some danger when *none* have ever been
documented in cats.

Now I'll ask you to produce a *single* case of pentobarbital toxicity in a
cat. I'm betting you'll come up empty just as you *always* do. That's why
you have no credibility - other than with newbies who know absolutely
nothing and believe anything. You belong in a gossip newsgroup, not a cat
health group.

Perhaps some cat owner's should question why the FDA/CVM has never
tested cat foods for this drug. Could it be because they have spent so
much time with their cover-up on the dog foods that they will not do
any further studies?

You can't base your argument on the benefits of feeding raw food because
there are *none* so you denigrate commercial pet foods. You're like a high
school kid who can't win a girl with his own qualities so he denigrates the
other guy.

I'm not in favor of feeding raw but given a choice between raw and
commercial foods raw would be top on my list.

Again you resort to childish remarks.

Try something different for a change.... produce some proof to support your
accusations and implications instead of starting and perpetuating rumors and
scare tactics.... like you usually do....

Geez, another one that must work or the pet food industry or has some
hidden agenda.


.

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Phil P." wrote in message
...
"PawsForThought" wrote in message


Let's see if I can make this simpler. Martin claimed that there was
*TOXIC* levels of pentobarb in foods - your web site proved that was
NOT true. Nobody here has ever said there were never any traces found
in cheap foods.

But what is toxic exactly?

An amount that makes a cat sick or causes disease.... Duh!

And other then an eight week study that the FDA/CVM conducted on dogs
no other studies have been undertaken as to the toxicity of this drug
over a period of months or years. It's easy for people to say that
pentobarbital is not toxic but if it had no effect on animals why then
were these studies undertaken in the first place?

Wow! You're even better at innuendo than Lauren! Did you ever think the
study was a general analysis and not specifically for pentobarbital?



If a person feeds a food with even trace amounts of
pentobarb, ethoxyquin, BHT, BHA, etc., what is the effect over years
of
feeding?

We do know that all the above do have an effect on humans and the
FDA/CVM has lowered the amounts of ethoxyquin allowed in pet food
because of illnesses in pets. In 1997 the FDA/CVM lowered the levels
from l50 ppm to 75 ppm.

Because scaremongers like you created a panic, that's why. There has
*never* been a *single* case of adverse effects or toxcity in cats in more
than 20 years the antioxidants have been used in pet foods. Now how could
that be if the antioxidants were nearly as toxic as you're trying to imply
they are, huh?



You really are a scaremonger and have absolutely no clue about what
you're
talking about. You just ramble on with the same scare tactics over and
over
without ever providing a shred of evidence to support your bullsh!t.

You, like a few others on this list, are the ones that are full of
"bullsh!t."

Naa, I think you have the bullsh!t department well covered.... and you're
even making money at it to boot!


You all resort to derogatory remarks when backed into a corner.

Backed into a corner? Are you delusional as well as a bullsh!ter and
scaremonger?

With
people like you I'd tell Lauren, Megan, and a few others,

Na, I just have no patience or respect for scaremongers like you who spread
a whole lot of innuendo, conjecture and scare tactic to further your
agenda....



don't waste
your time replying to people like this as their prime goal is to put
people down and avoid carrying on an intelligent discussion.

Nope... My prime goal is to try to make sure people aren't panicked by
scaremongers like you with a whole lot of innuendo, rumors and scare tactics
and your own agenda... which in your case is selling books.

Follow your own advice, don't waste your time replying to me because your
bullsh!t doesn't work on me... I've been around long enough to know to a
bullsh!ter and scaremonger with a load of innuendo and speculation and an
agenda when I see one.... and you're *IT*.



I and others have asked you a thousand times to cite a *single* case of
ethoxyquin, BHT, or BHA toxicity reported in a cat in the 20 years
these
antioxidants have been used in pet foods. You have *never* *once*
produced
a *single* credible reference. Not one. But you continue to use the
same
scare tactics and imply there's some danger when *none* have ever been
documented in cats.

Now I'll ask you to produce a *single* case of pentobarbital toxicity in
a
cat. I'm betting you'll come up empty just as you *always* do. That's
why
you have no credibility - other than with newbies who know absolutely
nothing and believe anything. You belong in a gossip newsgroup, not a
cat
health group.

Perhaps some cat owner's should question why the FDA/CVM has never
tested cat foods for this drug. Could it be because they have spent so
much time with their cover-up on the dog foods that they will not do
any further studies?

The master of innuendo strikes again! Got any facts to back up your
innuendo? Obviously the FDA found no danger or reason for further
testing.....Come to think of it, your innuendo is kinda weak...



You can't base your argument on the benefits of feeding raw food because
there are *none* so you denigrate commercial pet foods. You're like a
high
school kid who can't win a girl with his own qualities so he denigrates
the
other guy.

I'm not in favor of feeding raw but given a choice between raw and
commercial foods raw would be top on my list.

Figures... LOL!



Again you resort to childish remarks.

Appropriate remarks for childish behavior....



Try something different for a change.... produce some proof to support
your
accusations and implications instead of starting and perpetuating rumors
and
scare tactics.... like you usually do....

Geez, another one that must work or the pet food industry or has some
hidden agenda.


Nope! Don't work for the petfood industry but I have been feeding lots of
cats commercial cat foods for lots of years to know your claims are nothing
more scare tactics to sell books...

My agenda is far from hidden... its debunking scare tactics and innuendo
from scarmongers like you who panic cat owners...

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Phil P." wrote in message
...
"PawsForThought" wrote in message


Let's see if I can make this simpler. Martin claimed that there was
*TOXIC* levels of pentobarb in foods - your web site proved that was
NOT true. Nobody here has ever said there were never any traces found
in cheap foods.

But what is toxic exactly?

An amount that makes a cat sick or causes disease.... Duh!

And other then an eight week study that the FDA/CVM conducted on dogs
no other studies have been undertaken as to the toxicity of this drug
over a period of months or years. It's easy for people to say that
pentobarbital is not toxic but if it had no effect on animals why then
were these studies undertaken in the first place?

Wow! You're even better at innuendo than Lauren! Did you ever think the
study was a general analysis and not specifically for pentobarbital?



If a person feeds a food with even trace amounts of
pentobarb, ethoxyquin, BHT, BHA, etc., what is the effect over years
of
feeding?

We do know that all the above do have an effect on humans and the
FDA/CVM has lowered the amounts of ethoxyquin allowed in pet food
because of illnesses in pets. In 1997 the FDA/CVM lowered the levels
from l50 ppm to 75 ppm.

Because scaremongers like you created a panic, that's why. There has
*never* been a *single* case of adverse effects or toxcity in cats in more
than 20 years the antioxidants have been used in pet foods. Now how could
that be if the antioxidants were nearly as toxic as you're trying to imply
they are, huh?



You really are a scaremonger and have absolutely no clue about what
you're
talking about. You just ramble on with the same scare tactics over and
over
without ever providing a shred of evidence to support your bullsh!t.

You, like a few others on this list, are the ones that are full of
"bullsh!t."

Naa, I think you have the bullsh!t department well covered.... and you're
even making money at it to boot!


You all resort to derogatory remarks when backed into a corner.

Backed into a corner? Are you delusional as well as a bullsh!ter and
scaremonger?

With
people like you I'd tell Lauren, Megan, and a few others,

Na, I just have no patience or respect for scaremongers like you who spread
a whole lot of innuendo, conjecture and scare tactic to further your
agenda....



don't waste
your time replying to people like this as their prime goal is to put
people down and avoid carrying on an intelligent discussion.

Nope... My prime goal is to try to make sure people aren't panicked by
scaremongers like you with a whole lot of innuendo, rumors and scare tactics
and your own agenda... which in your case is selling books.

Follow your own advice, don't waste your time replying to me because your
bullsh!t doesn't work on me... I've been around long enough to know to a
bullsh!ter and scaremonger with a load of innuendo and speculation and an
agenda when I see one.... and you're *IT*.



I and others have asked you a thousand times to cite a *single* case of
ethoxyquin, BHT, or BHA toxicity reported in a cat in the 20 years
these
antioxidants have been used in pet foods. You have *never* *once*
produced
a *single* credible reference. Not one. But you continue to use the
same
scare tactics and imply there's some danger when *none* have ever been
documented in cats.

Now I'll ask you to produce a *single* case of pentobarbital toxicity in
a
cat. I'm betting you'll come up empty just as you *always* do. That's
why
you have no credibility - other than with newbies who know absolutely
nothing and believe anything. You belong in a gossip newsgroup, not a
cat
health group.

Perhaps some cat owner's should question why the FDA/CVM has never
tested cat foods for this drug. Could it be because they have spent so
much time with their cover-up on the dog foods that they will not do
any further studies?

The master of innuendo strikes again! Got any facts to back up your
innuendo? Obviously the FDA found no danger or reason for further
testing.....Come to think of it, your innuendo is kinda weak...



You can't base your argument on the benefits of feeding raw food because
there are *none* so you denigrate commercial pet foods. You're like a
high
school kid who can't win a girl with his own qualities so he denigrates
the
other guy.

I'm not in favor of feeding raw but given a choice between raw and
commercial foods raw would be top on my list.

Figures... LOL!



Again you resort to childish remarks.

Appropriate remarks for childish behavior....



Try something different for a change.... produce some proof to support
your
accusations and implications instead of starting and perpetuating rumors
and
scare tactics.... like you usually do....

Geez, another one that must work or the pet food industry or has some
hidden agenda.


Nope! Don't work for the petfood industry but I have been feeding lots of
cats commercial cat foods for lots of years to know your claims are nothing
more scare tactics to sell books...

My agenda is far from hidden... its debunking scare tactics and innuendo
from scarmongers like you who panic cat owners...

"~*SooZy*~" wrote:

My Father worked in a big well known bakery in the UK a few years back, once
a week Waltham came to collect all the waste/out of date, cakes, bread etc
to add to their feed, which was returned from the major super markets.
Whiskers and Pedigree where made by Waltham, which is meant to be a good
well know brand... terrible to then how many people are wasting their money
on feeding their cats doughnuts!

If it went into animal feed at all it probably went into large animal
feed. Many donut chains have their leftovers going to pig farmers for
instance. The local Tim Hortons had been doing that for years even
though I can't say for sure they still are.

Maybe it fattens them up quicker.

-mhd

"~*SooZy*~" wrote:

My Father worked in a big well known bakery in the UK a few years back, once
a week Waltham came to collect all the waste/out of date, cakes, bread etc
to add to their feed, which was returned from the major super markets.
Whiskers and Pedigree where made by Waltham, which is meant to be a good
well know brand... terrible to then how many people are wasting their money
on feeding their cats doughnuts!

If it went into animal feed at all it probably went into large animal
feed. Many donut chains have their leftovers going to pig farmers for
instance. The local Tim Hortons had been doing that for years even
though I can't say for sure they still are.

Maybe it fattens them up quicker.

-mhd

From: (Steve Crane)

ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose Ann Martin is right and
all pet food contains large amounts of rejected meat meals from human
processing, and all the dead cows and pigs from the feed lots

I don't believe Ms. Martin was saying ALL pet food contains this.

However she is certainly insinuating that. I tried to pin her down exactly and
she ducked and dodged masterfully and never did answer the questions put to
her. Instead she spewed a bunch of insults and arrogance. Whatever.

From: (Steve Crane)

ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose Ann Martin is right and
all pet food contains large amounts of rejected meat meals from human
processing, and all the dead cows and pigs from the feed lots

I don't believe Ms. Martin was saying ALL pet food contains this.

However she is certainly insinuating that. I tried to pin her down exactly and
she ducked and dodged masterfully and never did answer the questions put to
her. Instead she spewed a bunch of insults and arrogance. Whatever.

From: (GAUBSTER2)

From: (Steve Crane)

ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose Ann Martin is right and
all pet food contains large amounts of rejected meat meals from human
processing, and all the dead cows and pigs from the feed lots

I don't believe Ms. Martin was saying ALL pet food contains this.

However she is certainly insinuating that. I tried to pin her down exactly
and
she ducked and dodged masterfully and never did answer the questions put to
her. Instead she spewed a bunch of insults and arrogance. Whatever.

I read your posts in the thread, and you did not offer anything to back up your
claims. You haven't even read Ms. Martin's book. I didn't see her insulting
anyone.
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: (GAUBSTER2)

From: (Steve Crane)

ONLY for the sake of argument, let's suppose Ann Martin is right and
all pet food contains large amounts of rejected meat meals from human
processing, and all the dead cows and pigs from the feed lots

I don't believe Ms. Martin was saying ALL pet food contains this.

However she is certainly insinuating that. I tried to pin her down exactly
and
she ducked and dodged masterfully and never did answer the questions put to
her. Instead she spewed a bunch of insults and arrogance. Whatever.

I read your posts in the thread, and you did not offer anything to back up your
claims. You haven't even read Ms. Martin's book. I didn't see her insulting
anyone.
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

wrote in message
...
"~*SooZy*~" wrote:

My Father worked in a big well known bakery in the UK a few years back,
once
a week Waltham came to collect all the waste/out of date, cakes, bread
etc
to add to their feed, which was returned from the major super markets.
Whiskers and Pedigree where made by Waltham, which is meant to be a good
well know brand... terrible to then how many people are wasting their
money
on feeding their cats doughnuts!

If it went into animal feed at all it probably went into large animal
feed. Many donut chains have their leftovers going to pig farmers for
instance. The local Tim Hortons had been doing that for years even
though I can't say for sure they still are.

Maybe it fattens them up quicker.

-mhd


It went into Waltham's food e.g. pedigree chum and whiskers, my Father spoke
to the drivers, I am going back a few years BTW but at that time it was when
UK where all advertising top breeders use it! and people were paying loads
for it too.

I emailed them to ask if they still put it in and the email I got back
didn't say yes or no! maybe I may ask again and post the answer in here, so
someone who knows what they are talking about can read it...... because it
didn't make any sense to me