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#11
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to
say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well) but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than you know. Phil P. wrote: Any more questions? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. That's a surprise. Why did you not answer any of my questions? Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a few hundred times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post. I have done quite a bit of research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am so surprised by your suggestion Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is-- Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough and you don't know as much as you think you do. is that it would seem to me that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine whose "qualified". should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not it contains sufficient water content. No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it? Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to show how much you (don't) know.. From: "Phil P." Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM Subject: My cat just had a blockage. What now? "Phil P." wrote in message news:66lWg.3512$W35.1657@trnddc06 "Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium oxalate. Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become large enough to interfere with urination. You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain." When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something. Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better? http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...i ch_is_reall snip I am curious to know why you think salt can be added to the diet so easily with impunity? Here's why: J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627 Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. . I am not a DVM, and if you are, Neither am I. and if you are here in good faith to answer people's questions, I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for ****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know so much. By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want all the groups to see what a jerk you are? -- Message posted via http://www.catkb.com |
#12
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition
with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL "MoMo via CatKB.com" u27647@uwe wrote in message news:67dffd011b9b3@uwe... tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well) but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than you know. Phil P. wrote: Any more questions? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. That's a surprise. Why did you not answer any of my questions? Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a few hundred times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post. I have done quite a bit of research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am so surprised by your suggestion Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is-- Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough and you don't know as much as you think you do. is that it would seem to me that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine whose "qualified". should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not it contains sufficient water content. No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it? Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to show how much you (don't) know.. From: "Phil P." Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM Subject: My cat just had a blockage. What now? "Phil P." wrote in message news:66lWg.3512$W35.1657@trnddc06 "Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium oxalate. Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become large enough to interfere with urination. You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain." When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something. Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better? http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...i ch_is_reall snip I am curious to know why you think salt can be added to the diet so easily with impunity? Here's why: J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627 Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. . I am not a DVM, and if you are, Neither am I. and if you are here in good faith to answer people's questions, I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for ****ing contests with assholes who read a few websites and think they know so much. By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want all the groups to see what a jerk you are? -- Message posted via http://www.catkb.com |
#13
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
Phil P. wrote: "tension_on_the_wire" wrote: Phil P. wrote: Any more questions? Thank you for your response. Yes, indeed, I have more questions. It was a rhetorical question... Seems like you have a lot of research to do... Are you related to Treeline by any chance? No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not it contains sufficient water content. A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as being the first and most appropriate suggestion. The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about 10% water. Cats on dry food will drink more free water, but not generally enough to compensate what they would get if they ate a watery diet such as wet food. Cats do not have a strong thirst mechanism and trying to heighten it with salt, rather than working with the cats own physiology and giving him a diet which is less prone to causing a state of chronic dehydration seems a much more sensible route to me. Since struvite crystals are highly precipitable in low water content, I don't really see the point of adding salt to a diet to temporarily increase thirst, and water intake in a way which would then subsequently trigger a compensatory response of increased urine *and* salt output resulting once again in the original state of chronic dehydration. That seems like a quick fix solution, rather than a definitive answer that might actually get at the etiology of the original problem. And I fail to see why cats are *protected* from hypertension. My own cat is hypertensive, though not from salt intake, for sure. But cats are prone to hypertension for other reasons, a common cause being hyperthyroidism, for example, and since chronic renal failure, which most certainly can result from hypertension, is one of the number one killers of domestic cats, I am curious to know why you think salt can be added to the diet so easily with impunity? I am not a DVM, and if you are, and if you are here in good faith to answer people's questions, why won't you engage in an informative discussion with me about this? If I am mistaken about anything I have said here, I would most humbly appreciate being corrected. But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat arrogant and condescending of you. It would certainly be informative for many people reading this post including the original poster who has problems with his cat. Tension, It was wonderful to read your posts. You seem like a very intelligent, and better yet -- in control of your emotions! I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Hope you stick around and continue to be a level-headed voice, and be willing to stick your neck out. Rhonda |
#14
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
tension_on_the_wire wrote:
Phil P. wrote: Seems like you have a lot of research to do... Are you related to Treeline by any chance? No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not it contains sufficient water content. A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as being the first and most appropriate suggestion. The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about 10% water. My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression You're right about water. One good article for me, geniune research article in a refereed journal, I think, from across the pond stated that cats on 100% canned food had zero crystals, either in fresh or stored urine samples. That was pretty darn impressive. Zero crystals. Unfortunately, they did not go into which canned foods, in case that would matter. But even free in stored samples which would tend to generate false positives, I do suspect. You want a reference? You talking to me? Oops, wrong movie: TITL: An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of crystalluria in cats. AUTH: Sturgess C P; Hesford A; Owen H; Privett R ORGA: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford, Bristol BS40 5DU, UK. CITE: J Feline Med Surg 2001 Jun; 3 (2): 81-5 Volume 3, Issue 2 ABST: Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of urinary tract disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored under differing condition and then examined for the presence of crystalluria. Crystalluria was detected in at least one stored sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed wet/dry food diet compared to 24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not detected in any sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets. Copyright 2001 European Society of Feline Medicine. MJTR: Cat Diseases, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, veterinary. Specimen Handling, veterinary. MNTR: Animal. Animal Feed. Cat Diseases, urine. Cats. Female. Kidney Calculi, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, urine. Magnesium Compounds, urine. Male. Phosphates, urine. Predictive Value of Tests. Specimen Handling, standards. So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway, keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around this. Purina has most of their foods, all of them, above this except for a very, very few. It's not clear to me if the phosphorus has anything to do with crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the kidneys work more than they should have to. Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading. Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even if he has the temperament of an angry diva |
#15
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
"Rhonda" wrote in message I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration. When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water. |
#16
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
Upscale wrote:
"Rhonda" wrote in message I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration. When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water. That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) Rhonda |
#17
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
"Rhonda" wrote in message ... That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) No, no no. Salt significantly increases water intake and urine production- which is *exactly* what you want for a cat with any type of crystals-- especially calcium oxalate: "Increasing water consumption by feeding increased amounts of canned food or feeding a dry diet formulated with additional salt (7, 8, 9). It has been shown that salt significantly increases water intake and urine production, significantly decreases urinary concentrations of oxalate, and significantly decreases relative supersaturation (RSS) for calcium oxalate (9,10). Salt has not been shown to contribute to hypertension or renal disease in healthy cats (11, 12)." 7. Buffington CAT, Chew DJ. Diet therapy in cats with lower urinary tract disorders. Vet Med 1999; 94: 625-630. 8. Houston DM. Diagnosis and management of feline lower urinary tract disease. Standards of Ca Emergency and Critical Care Medicine. Sept 2002; 4(8): 5-10. 9. Biourge V, Devois C, Morice G, et al. Dietary NaCl significantly increases urine volume but does not increase urinary calcium oxalate supersaturation in healthy cats. J Vet Intern Med 2001; 866. 10. Smith BH, Stevenson AE, Markwell PJ. Urinary relative supersaturations of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced by diet. J Nutr 1998; 128:2763S-64S. 11. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary Nail affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788. 12. Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood pressure n cats with normal and reduced renal function. Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627. excerpted from: North American Veterinary Conference January 7, 2006 WATER INTAKE AND URINE OUTPUT: WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT CATS AND URINARY TRACT DISORDERS Doreen M. Houston, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ACVIM |
#18
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
"MoMo via CatKB.com" u27647@uwe wrote in message news:67da113e24c40@uwe... Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in the meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's urine output is still get smaller everyday. I went to the vet's over the weekend (without my cat, just to pick up food) and told the vet about this and was told that as long as he is peeing when he is in the litter box he is not blocked. But now when I check, he is only putting out urine that is clumping to about the size of a dime and I am getting really worried. He is not straining in the litter box when he does this so could this just be how he usually is? I never paid attention before the blockage. He had two decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night. What do you guys think? If you remember, I said in a previous post that the tight junctions between the muscle fibers in the bladder might have separated a bit if his bladder was overdistended. So he might have a little trouble contracting his bladder. It might take a few days for the tight junctions to reform. Its also possible all the crystals haven't dissolved completely yet, so, I'd keep a very close watch on his litter box behavior. If you see him strain, or try to pee and nothing or very little comes out, don't wait to take him back to the vet. Best of luck, Phil |
#19
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
Rhonda wrote: Upscale wrote: "Rhonda" wrote in message I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration. When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water. That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) Actually, Rhonda, and thank you for your previous post as well, the homeostasis (keeping the body's fluids and electrolytes in balance) system is extremely fine tuned. Upscale is correct about the effect of salt, in its ability to increase body water. One of the main methods the body controls body water is by controlling salt balance in the blood. But the effect on a chronically dehydrated animal or person should be to retain both the salt and the water, so that method will not result in a higher urine output unless the animal has normal fluid balance to begin with (this is simplifying it, there are more variables depending on whether the dehydration is of the high or low salt-level type). That was why I questioned the issue of diet. However, if the original salt levels were normal, like in a healthy animal on a canned food diet, the extra salt will result in a compensatory effect from the kidneys in that they will act to rid the body of any excess salt in the end, and salt cannot be eliminated by the kidneys without water. Hence the extra water the cat drinks does indeed end up in the bladder where we want it along with the salt. My only question was regarding the wisdom of doing that for a cat which is already potentially in a chronically dehydrated state as many cats are who subsist on a dry diet. And of course, for evidence that this treatment would not result in hypertension in the cat as it most certainly does in humans who consume too much salt. Not such an outrageous question, I thought! 8^P --tension |
#20
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How do I know if he is reblocking?
"tension_on_the_wire" wrote in message ups.com... Not such an outrageous question, I thought! It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it. |
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