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  #51  
Old August 6th 03, 06:26 AM
DeAnna
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Barbara-

I think you are confused here.

Bob is the one who is 'campaigning' for control of the cat keeping world (including us
nasty Americans!)

Some Brenchly wretchings:
"As such it needs the same treatment. I will not stand by and allow
American's to ill-treat cat just because they are Americans."

"What gives me the right to make personal attacks is the ill-treatment
of cats. You should be ashamed of yourself for not only standing by
and allowing it to happen, but for also in part condoning it."

I have to agree with you. This certain proves the truth in one of your statements....

there's no end of people who try to draw the lines for the whole world. now
that's selfish & self-centered.


D.



"No One But Me" wrote in message
...
just because people disagree with you, kaeli, doesn't mean they are wrong.
your world view is your world view and you do not have the right to draw the
lines for the whole world. the only portion of the world you can change is
your little world view. gawd! i'm glad i have the RIGHT to do with my animal
as i please & no one else gets a say.

FYI, the declawed cat that goes out is not one i declawed. that one was
abandoned in the front yard in a city 350 miles from my home by an owner who
just up and moved & left him there to fend for himself. my daughter rescued
him & brought him to me. and those were good folks just like you. so don't
talk to me about selfish. i have 11 cats, nine of which were other people's
throwaways. Nine of which were abandoned by good folks just like you. i
would say they're lives are infinitely better now than they were before
their owner just threw them out, even if they were declawed by me. in order
to have a home, food in your bowl, water to drink, regular medical care, and
an owner to take care of them & love them, prices have to be paid. i don't
think my cats hate the price (declawing) they paid for a home. they seem
very happy to me. and they would never leave with someone else. that someone
else would have to come into my yard & take them. they wouldn't go
willingly.

there's no end of people who try to draw the lines for the whole world. now
that's selfish & self-centered.

Barbara

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...
just because something is not your world view does not make him wrong

for
his world view. all you have control of is your world not his. quit

trying
to control the whole world & you'll be a whole lot happier.

although i do not agree with a lot of what brenchley writes, based on my

own
personal experience, I agree with allowing cats outdoors. of my own 11 c

ats,
7 are allowed to go outside (1 of them is even declawed). i would not

dream
of keeping them indoors only. they would not be happy there. whatever i

wish
for my cats, i wish them to be happy. of the other 4 cats, 2 are kittens

who
will never go out (destined for declawing both of them), 1 is an adult

tabby
who has never gone out (& is declawed), and 1 is kept indoors for his

own
protection. he is not the brightest bulb in the package so he is not

allowed
outside. besides, at 3 he still has not learned to come when he is

called,
everytime he is called ... & that is a big requirement for going

outside.
the other 7 always come when they are called ... every single time they

are
called. my ultimate goal with all my pets is their happiness not my
happiness. i guess i'm just not that selfish by nature.

barbara


You aren't selfish enough to keep them in, but you'll amputate the last
digit on the toes, a procedure that is painful, can be debilitating, and
has no benefits to the cat whatsoever?

Yeah, okay. You keep on telling other people how selfish they are.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
Found God? If nobody claims Him in 30 days,
He's yours to keep.
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any
more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------





  #52  
Old August 6th 03, 06:35 AM
Arjun Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In , "DeAnna"
wrote:

| Like everything else, everyone has their own favorite flavour and
| style.

Usenet is a medium for communication. The conventions for effective
communication were developed by people smarter than you and me, long
before you or I got here. It is not a loss of individuality to learn
something and put it into practice. Please see:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials..._1999-12.shtml

  #53  
Old August 6th 03, 12:06 PM
Bryan S. Slick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[DeAnna]
[Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:18:36 -0500]

: Moronic posting style corrected. You have been charged $50 for this
: service, please remit by international money order as a donation to
: Cats Protection (cats.org.uk) within the next 7 days. Be warned that
: repeated use of this service will incur a escalating rate of charges.
:
:When you can prove fit to judge my posting style, I will remit a payment. Until then, you
:may be compensated exactly what your opinions are worth. Consider that amount as having
:been posted to your account.

As was proven last year via repeated mailings to their attorney, Cats
Protection is in no way affiliated with the poster to whom you are
replying. If you wish, you can e-mail them and let them know that he is
once again making demands in their name. I was told last year that they
were seriously considering legal action against him.

--
Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net

"To those who have fought for it,
freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  #54  
Old August 6th 03, 02:38 PM
kaeli
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
enlightened us with...
just because people disagree with you, kaeli, doesn't mean they are wrong.
your world view is your world view and you do not have the right to draw the
lines for the whole world. the only portion of the world you can change is
your little world view. gawd! i'm glad i have the RIGHT to do with my animal
as i please & no one else gets a say.


You also have the right to kill yourself, your animals, and your unborn
child. Doesn't mean you should.
And you DON'T have the right to torture your animal, at least in most
areas of the United States and England. So, you can't do whatever you
want. And declawing will be banned eventually here as it is in the UK
and other civilized countries. So you won't have the right to do that,
either.

FYI, the declawed cat that goes out is not one i declawed. that one was
abandoned in the front yard in a city 350 miles from my home by an owner who
just up and moved & left him there to fend for himself. my daughter rescued
him & brought him to me. and those were good folks just like you. so don't
talk to me about selfish. i have 11 cats, nine of which were other people's
throwaways. Nine of which were abandoned by good folks just like you. i
would say they're lives are infinitely better now than they were before
their owner just threw them out, even if they were declawed by me. in order
to have a home, food in your bowl, water to drink, regular medical care, and
an owner to take care of them & love them, prices have to be paid. i don't
think my cats hate the price (declawing) they paid for a home. they seem
very happy to me. and they would never leave with someone else. that someone
else would have to come into my yard & take them. they wouldn't go
willingly.

there's no end of people who try to draw the lines for the whole world. now
that's selfish & self-centered.



Everyone thinks their opinion is right. That's why it's their opinion.
Deal with it.

I think you are selfish for declawing your cats. What do you care?
You've never even met me. The point is, you implied that people are
selfish for keeping their cats inside. How's it feel to have that be
turned on you? Guess what - those of us who keep our cats in don't think
we're selfish, either.

It's my opinion, my world view, whatever you'd like to call it. I am
entitled. Just as you are entitled to yours. And we are both allowed to
think the other is wrong. Whoop-di-f'en-do.
I have the RIGHT to an opinion. So do you. When someone else's is
different from yours, they are allowed to say so. Deal with it.

-------------------------------------------------
~kaeli~
The secret of the universe is @*&^^^ NO CARRIER
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher
the probability of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
-------------------------------------------------
  #55  
Old August 7th 03, 04:14 AM
Arjun Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In , "bewtifulfreak"
wrote:

| Regardless of the rules apparently set down by some apparently supreme
| beings,

Ponderous sarcasm aside, this was about conventions: customs and usages.
Not about rules. That's a strawman.

| I don't think there is anything wrong with top posting, providing
| your comments are self-contained.

Then don't quote at all. That's what happens when new topics are
started. There's a new Subject header and no Reference headers. Brand
new context.

| It's merely a way of giving those who haven't been following the
| conversation the option of reviewing,

No, it is not. This is not cover-your-ass corporate memoing, where it
might be prudent to attach a proof of receipt.

The purpose of quoting is to establish the context of your followup.
Communication on usenet is all about context. Threads are ongoing
conversations with many participants. You shouldn't assume that your
prose is immortal, good enough to stand on its own, or that you will
have the Last Word On The Subject. There will always be a next poster,
and there will always be people who will find contextual cues helpful.

And wonder of wonders, it's all made possible by this electronic medium,
to *interleave* ones commentary with what has come before, so that
everything can be read in its correct context. No one has to figure out
what you might be talking about by going elsewhere and poring over a
whole bunch of irrelevant material to find the cue. Instead, the
correct context is right there, in logical and chronological sequence.
People who want to follow up can simply delete irrelevant material and
interleave their own. It's a participatory and ongoing system that with
due care works for *everybody*.

Except when top-posters **** it all up for their own ignorant "reasons",
more on which below.

| I dislike having to scroll through the same huge post a thousand times
| just to read the response at the bottom

Deleting irrelevant material is an important part of communicating
effectively. In fact, quoting too much is the essence of the problem
that top posting only makes even worse. There is almost never a reason,
let alone a good one, to quote comprehensively.

(Never mind that what Outlook Express users mindlessly leave hanging off
the end of their posts, is some linewrap mangled totally unnreadable
mishmash that no one could make sense of even if they *tried* to.)

| So, while I do think we should all try to post with a sense of nettiquette,

That's part of the problem too. A lot of newcomers to the net have
absolutely no idea that there is such a thing as netiquette, or that the
internet could have existed long enough before they got here to have
evolved *working* customs and usages that it might, just might, have
been courteous of them to at least find out about. This is the "Ugly
American" syndrome writ large - an atttitude that anything one doesn't
know already is not worth finding out about, never mind adopting, even
out of common courtesy.

| live and let live.

Sure, in a killfile.

Top-posters got into the habit because as newbies they didn't know
enough to distinguish good software from bad. They just used a program
that came preinstalled on their computer, and when that program made
top-posting the *easiest* thing to do (thanks to a cursor on a blank
line at the top), they just fell into that "flow".

Only later, when they find out that their "style" makes them look silly
(sort of like walking in public with ones fly open), they cope with the
embarassment with denial and bluster, a bunch of bull about how they
"like it this way" and how it suits their oh so important sense of being
an individual and so on and so forth.

The fact of the matter is that people who can't be bothered to put their
remarks in context aren't worth reading anyway.

Because usenet is all about context.

--
Netiquette Pointers:
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials..._1999-12.shtml
http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
  #56  
Old August 7th 03, 05:23 AM
DeAnna
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Killfile away.



I don't killfile anyone, because everyone has something important to say at one point or
another.

But the newsreader presents the top of the post visibly first, and it makes no sense to me
to have to dredge through a ton of "conversation" I have already read, to get to that one
tiny "LOL" or "I agree! Signed Joe Schmoe". I could never figure the point behind it,
except some people are doing it because it is what they have always done?

Quoting often makes no sense to me, because what is quoted is often snipped beyond
recognition, and if you don't have all the thread downloaded, you have to keep going back
for more headers until you do. It is much simpler to me to just jump to the bottom-most
post, and read back through the latest post to catch up on what was said. In the longest
thread on my newsgroups, it was only 2KB for the bottom most posts of these "bandwidth"
and "hard drive space" "wasters". I see a lot more bandwidth and hard drive space wasted
on sheer verbosity in some self-righteous top-posting, "my newsreader is better than
yours" sermons. And I don't have problems with excessive spool file size to contain the
newsgroups, even though I don't expire the posts, and there are posts dating back over a
year.

All my newsgroups contain mostly top posters, and we have a couple that bottom post, and
everyone complains, because it simply seems like a waste of time, wading through what THAT
person deemed fit to regurgitate, even though it had all been read before. Since I have to
read ALL posts, in order to admin, it is MUCH simpler if I open the post and INSTANTLY see
what that person said, saving me scrolling and sorting, instead of trying to figure out if
a violation of our Code of Conduct was directly from that poster, or was a snip cut and
paste quote from a post before. If you are that worried about post sizes, snip it all.
But then again, if the posts get mis-grouped somehow, it makes it hard to figure out where
they fit in. And my groups users range from OE newreader users to Forte Agent, XNews, and
Gravity users.

I think accusations of poor "netiquette" could equally be tossed out against people who do
nothing but criticize other people's every perceived mistake. That doesn't seem like good
etiquette online, or offline, to this gentle reader.

Just my .01 female opinion, of course.

D.


  #57  
Old August 7th 03, 05:38 AM
bewtifulfreak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"DeAnna" wrote in message
...
Killfile away.



DeAnna's well-written rebuttal snipped for saving of space and ease of
reading

Now I feel like a right wimp for caving, LOL, but that is my people-pleasing
side, and the ease with which I can be made to feel wrong. Really, though,
I don't care how I post, I'm happy to snip and bottom post if that is the
preference (and I don't know what the preference is, really, because only
two people have expressed their opinions so far, and they're both
different!), though I, too, don't give a rat's ass if anyone wants to go
ahead and killfile me. I'm as polite as can be, even when I strongly
disagree with someone, and, to me, that's the part of netiquette that counts
the most, and I see from your post that you agree.

As far as reading, though, again, I'm with you, DeAnna; I actually prefer
reading top posts, as I see the message right away, so whether I've followed
the thread or not, I get the gist right off. Then, if I haven't seen the
previous or original message and don't get enough of an idea from the
current message, I can always go over the quoted text and see what I've
missed (and, like you said, you can often read a good portion of a thread in
one post by reading the bottom-most post with the quotes at the bottom).
But I guess because my preference is not within the conventions that have
been set up, I am stuck with accepting others' prefered style of reading,
except for when someone else is as incourteous as I am.

Ann


  #58  
Old August 7th 03, 06:17 AM
Arjun Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In , "bewtifulfreak"
wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" wrote in message
| ...

| I realize courtesy is important, I just think you're making the whole
| posting method thing sound vastly more important than it is.

Hardly. I killfile inveterate top-posters as not worth reading. End of
story.

| I tend to find your blatant personal attacks on those you disagree with
| just as lacking in courtesy,

Animal abusers get no courtesy from me, sorry.

| And, for the record, I don't think my words are end all be all,

I'm not sure what brought this up. Top-posted material is necessarily
out of context (you used the phrase "self-contained"). It gets a "be
all end all" air from the fact that the poster didn't even care about
context. Isolated, free-standing - thus irrelevant and ignorable.

| but if a subject header asks for support for something specific, and
| you post your support, I didn't think I needed to post the initial
| message, but just left it 'just in case'.

Am I correct to think that you meant to write "and I post my support"?

| I realize now that, in the interest of following 'protocol' [...] I
| would be better off just quoting a snip of the support request,

Or summarizing it with suitable editing. Various methods are covered
he

http://www.digital-web.com/tutorials..._1999-12.shtml

| I just made an incorrect assumption about what was acceptable, as top
| posting is so commonly done,

Of late, yes. Thanks to millions of newbies unleashed on usenet with
bozoware like Outlook Express. Top-posting was unknown when most people
used competent software.

  #59  
Old August 7th 03, 06:43 AM
bewtifulfreak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Arjun Ray" wrote in message
news
In , "bewtifulfreak"
wrote:
| "Arjun Ray" wrote in message
| ...

| I realize courtesy is important, I just think you're making the whole
| posting method thing sound vastly more important than it is.

Hardly. I killfile inveterate top-posters as not worth reading. End of
story.


As is your right.


| I tend to find your blatant personal attacks on those you disagree with
| just as lacking in courtesy,

Animal abusers get no courtesy from me, sorry.


I think you're very quick to judge someone as an animal abuser without
knowing all the facts (and I'm not just talking about declawing, which I
agree is abusive).


| And, for the record, I don't think my words are end all be all,

I'm not sure what brought this up.


Your quote:

You shouldn't assume that your prose is immortal, good enough to stand on

its own, or that you will have the Last Word On The Subject.

This is what brought that up.


Top-posted material is necessarily
out of context (you used the phrase "self-contained"). It gets a "be
all end all" air from the fact that the poster didn't even care about
context. Isolated, free-standing - thus irrelevant and ignorable.


In certain cases, it is free-standing; the context is the header (as in the
support example).


| but if a subject header asks for support for something specific, and
| you post your support, I didn't think I needed to post the initial
| message, but just left it 'just in case'.

Am I correct to think that you meant to write "and I post my support"?


See, now you're just pointing out petty, pedantic grammar mistakes; I didn't
realize that, not only am I expected to post to a predetermined standard,
but I'm expected to do so with flawless grammar. Actually, I meant the
'general' you, as in anyone who did this, not 'you' Arjun. I could also
have said 'I', yes, but I think most people could get the gist of what I
meant. These are conversational newsgroup posts we're writing, not news
articles; if you want a job as an editor, contact a newspaper or publishing
house.


| I just made an incorrect assumption about what was acceptable, as top
| posting is so commonly done,

Of late, yes. Thanks to millions of newbies unleashed on usenet with
bozoware like Outlook Express. Top-posting was unknown when most people
used competent software.


Complain to Bill Gates on that one; I use what comes with my browser.
However, if you'd like to recommend some superior-ware, by all means, do so.
You've already told everyone how to post, why not tell us what to use to do
it?

Ann


  #60  
Old August 7th 03, 06:52 AM
Arjun Ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In , "DeAnna"
wrote, in cinemascope:

| I could never figure the point behind [reams and reams of quotage],

There isn't any.

| except some people are doing it because it is what they have always
| done?

Exactly right, they never learned any better.

| Quoting often makes no sense to me, because what is quoted is often
| snipped beyond recognition,

Where? Weren't you just now pointing out the annoyance of having to
scroll through scads of quoted material?

| and if you don't have all the thread downloaded, you have to keep
| going back for more headers until you do.

That's a failing of your "choice" of software. (Actually, Micro$oft
would turn around and accuse you of not "configuring it properly"). Go
to Tools - Options - Read, and uncheck the box that says "Get ____
headers at a time".

| And I don't have problems with excessive spool file size to contain
| the newsgroups, even though I don't expire the posts, and there are
| posts dating back over a year.

Bandwidth is an issue for servers, not your hard disk.

| Since I have to read ALL posts, in order to admin,

Admin? Usenet newsgroups are not administered. Some may be moderated,
but newsadmins (those who run servers) generally don't monitor specific
newsgroups in any official capacity.

| it is MUCH simpler if I open the post and INSTANTLY see what that
| person said, saving me scrolling and sorting, instead of trying to
| figure out if a violation of our Code of Conduct was directly from
| that poster, or was a snip cut and paste quote from a post before. If
| you are that worried about post sizes, snip it all. But then again,
| if the posts get mis-grouped somehow, it makes it hard to figure out
| where they fit in. And my groups users range from OE newreader users
| to Forte Agent, XNews, and Gravity users.

Code of Conduct? "Misgrouped somehow"? "My groups"? Seriously, what
*are* you talking about?

 




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