I'm Sorry

"Jofirey" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
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It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up, which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be about,
say, a very tall man.

(This is not an invitation to abuse or ridicule, btw. If someone doesn't
understand the difference between a put-down and a simple statement of
fact, their cognitive skills might need some development.)

And if someone doesn't understand certain social conventions, their
social skills might need some development. If they choose to ignore
social conventions for whatever reason, they may need to accept some
fallout.

Social convention. It is rude to state that someone is mentally ill,
either to their face or to others. (It is also rude to say a lot of other
personal things to or about them if they have not in fact invited such
comments)

Social convention. It is rude, when someone tells a joke, to say "that
isn't funny". You don't have to laugh. You don't have to agree. You can
turn away. You may want to reread what Pam posted, and then your reply.
Words like nasty, bigotry, stupid, dangerous, attitudes. Pretty strong
personal attack for something relatively innocuous.

Social convention. If you have a condition (for lack of a better word)
that can make things difficult for you or for others, it is up to you to
own that and make it possible for others to make any allowances that are
necessary. I'm deaf and I lip read. I get very tired of telling virtual
strangers that I am deaf and lip read and that I need them to look at me
when they speak. Tough. Its my job and I'm the only one that can do it.
Same goes for a situation where my weight might be an issue. If I need to
sit at a table rather than in a booth, it is up to me to say so. If I
need a seatbelt extension on an airplane, it is up to me to ask for one.
Same goes for anyone who is too short or too tall or can't open a bottle
or whatever.

Jo

Thank you, Jo! You said that *much* better than I have (apparently) been
able - and you were much *nicer* about it too! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

wrote in message
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Cheryl wrote:



Once again - this is not directed at you, Cheryl. I've been wanting to
say this stuff for a while. Kyla is a magnet for people who think that
everyone should be repressed, good little saints who never complain.
She gets their knickers all in a twist. Can we all get over it, please?
Kyla is not hurting anyone!

I normally ignore her posts, but she asked. It was right in the subject
line. I had no malice or ill will intended, it was just an observation
because ... she asked.

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
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Cheryl wrote:



Once again - this is not directed at you, Cheryl. I've been wanting to
say this stuff for a while. Kyla is a magnet for people who think that
everyone should be repressed, good little saints who never complain.
She gets their knickers all in a twist. Can we all get over it, please?
Kyla is not hurting anyone!

I normally ignore her posts, but she asked. It was right in the subject
line. I had no malice or ill will intended, it was just an observation
because ... she asked.


snerk OK, Cheryl, you owe me a keyboard! ; Dang, diet Coke burns the
nostrils!

Hugs,

CatNipped

Jofirey wrote:

Social *convention*. snip

Social *convention*. snip

Social *convention*. snip

(My emphasis)

Well, I have no interest whatsoever in being *conventional*. I realize
this is a big problem for some people here.

This newsgroup is clearly dominated by people who share a very, very
conventional outlook on the world. This is an outlook where racist jokes
are innocuous, but criticizing them is rude. (Ask yourself, Jo, if someone
had posted a stereotypical joke about black people being criminals, or
gay people being perverts, or Jews ripping you off, would you find that
equally acceptable?) This is an outlook that clearly cannot distinguish
between fantasies and reality. It's an outlook that is insular and safe
and so very shocked by any idea or behavior that is out of the norm.

Not everyone here is like this. Lots of people who frequent this space
are capable of thinking outside this extremely narrow box, and I enjoy
corresponding with every one of those people. So I'm not referring to the
newsgroup at large. But lord. Some very narrow-minded people have been
extremely vocal lately. I'm choking to death on Wonderbread.

I'm killing this thread after posting this, because I'm really tired of
arguing about it. You're not going to be open to my world view because it's
just too weird and out-there for you, and you don't get it. I'm not going
to be open to your world view because I've spent a lifetime being inundated
by it and I know it inside out, and I already know that it's not for me.

--
Joyce ^..^

(To email me, remove the X's from my user name.)

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

It is not rude, of course, to talk about wheelchair accessibility - if the
person who is in a wheelchair beside you has brought it up as a topic of
conversation. It is rude to say "oh, I notice you are in a wheelchair, why
is that?"

And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up, which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be about,
say, a very tall man.

What is matter of fact to say about a fat person or a tall man? "Wow,
aren't you just so huge? how did you get like that?" or "Hiya, Lofty, is
it cold up there?"
Of course not. It is rude and insensitive. It does not need to be mentioned
how the human form varies in case it causes hurt for those who do not
correspond to "the norm" whatever that is.

Tweed

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

--
Joyce ^..^


The problem is that you brought up a subject that is painful for many
people, so it can be seen as inconsiderate unless you know she would find it
"okay" to discuss these issues in public. I have diabetes, and I am very
open in discussing it. In fact, I *like* to be able to communicate with
others because I feel that I have learned more that way and have even been
able to help some others. But I would not divulge that information about
anyone else unless I knew that it was acceptable to him/her to do so.

MaryL

wrote in message
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Cheryl wrote:

And before anyone says, "But look at RPCA Hero Of The Month. She has
a Horrible Life Condition and she is a Revered Saint because she Never
Complains About Anything."

Humans are not made out of cookie cutters. Some people have more inner
resources than others. Why? It's a mystery. Maybe they were raised by
better parents. Or maybe they have something in their brain chemistry
that resists negativity, or allows them to continue. Maybe they fight
back against problems with pure bitchery. Who knows. Everyone has their
personal strengths and we also have *different* kinds of damage. You
can't expect everyone to be able to do the same things. That's just
ignorant. Nobody has any idea what kind of secret resources an individual
person might have, no matter what their life might look like on the
outside. We should never compare people to each other.

Wow, just wow. How dare you denigrate and dismiss somebody's pain and the
courage it takes to live with it! How do *you* know what it takes for them
to go through what they're going through and still manage not to complain
about it?

How can *you* compare somebody with bad knees and the apparent need to be
the center of attention (and who whines about it every 5 minutes) with
someone who is dealing with the loss of a loved one, or who has
insurmountable physical pain, or who has lived with physical challenges so
overwhelming that they are confined to a wheelchair and can only *wish* they
could walk even with pain, or who have fought for their lives against cancer
and the surgery to remove it?

I am just gobsmacked!

CatNipped

My husband was in a car accident and in a wheelchair for many years. Some
of the best conversations we had were from questions from kids like "How did
your legs get broke." Or, Mr. what happened to you? " Bob always answered
because he felt that even though it sometimes was embarrassing, depending on
where we were. He felt someone might need help someday and that kid would
have learned that people in chairs are just PEOPLE

With myself having a rather bad vision problem, I have to tell you how my
Son handled people who were rude about physical problems.

My son has a vascular disease and has lost one leg and half of the other
foot. Right after he had his leg off
we were going into a Denny's for dinner. I was pushing Bob in his chair,
more hanging on to follow him truth be told. Mike was on his crutches
holding the door for us.

Some lady burst into tears, came up and grabbed me in a bear hug with the
following speech. "Oh you poor dear, you have your hands full. We should
all pray for you to have the strength to care for these two men. My Son
nearly fell off his crutches then, looked her in the eye and said "If we
hadn't let this Blind one drive, we wouldn't be in this shape."

Poor lady ran dragging her husband and to get away from us.

It was rude of him and, after I stopped laughing I told him so.

"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...

It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?

Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.

Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.

It is not rude, of course, to talk about wheelchair accessibility - if the
person who is in a wheelchair beside you has brought it up as a topic of
conversation. It is rude to say "oh, I notice you are in a wheelchair,
why is that?"

And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up, which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be about,
say, a very tall man.

What is matter of fact to say about a fat person or a tall man? "Wow,
aren't you just so huge? how did you get like that?" or "Hiya, Lofty, is
it cold up there?"
Of course not. It is rude and insensitive. It does not need to be
mentioned how the human form varies in case it causes hurt for those who
do not correspond to "the norm" whatever that is.

Tweed

On Jul 22, 7:07 pm, "CatNipped" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Cheryl wrote:
And before anyone says, "But look at RPCA Hero Of The Month. She has
a Horrible Life Condition and she is a Revered Saint because she Never
Complains About Anything."

Humans are not made out of cookie cutters. Some people have more inner
resources than others. Why? It's a mystery. Maybe they were raised by
better parents. Or maybe they have something in their brain chemistry
that resists negativity, or allows them to continue. Maybe they fight
back against problems with pure bitchery. Who knows. Everyone has their
personal strengths and we also have *different* kinds of damage. You
can't expect everyone to be able to do the same things. That's just
ignorant. Nobody has any idea what kind of secret resources an individual
person might have, no matter what their life might look like on the
outside. We should never compare people to each other.

Wow, just wow. How dare you denigrate and dismiss somebody's pain and the
courage it takes to live with it! How do *you* know what it takes for them
to go through what they're going through and still manage not to complain
about it?

How can *you* compare somebody with bad knees and the apparent need to be
the center of attention (and who whines about it every 5 minutes) with
someone who is dealing with the loss of a loved one, or who has
insurmountable physical pain, or who has lived with physical challenges so
overwhelming that they are confined to a wheelchair and can only *wish* they
could walk even with pain, or who have fought for their lives against cancer
and the surgery to remove it?

I am just gobsmacked!

The human condition is often pretty painful. From the _inside_ it is
very hard to compare pain, and pretty useless. There's no guage you
can read when you get up in the morning that says (hypothetical
example) "fat old man, Danielle dumped me but I do have a job and
these wonderful cats and a great dog. That's a three. I'd better not
complain because there mght be a six listening."

I think the people I feel worse for on this ng are the ones who are
so judgmental.

–
Will in New Haven
"There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go, no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone"
Robert Hunter, Greatful Dead, “Ripple” off AMERICAN BEAUTY

Ok, Granby! Glad I wasn't having a cuppa when I read your post! It may
have been rude (I'm not so sure it was, btw) but how funny!!! You guys
handled it so well!!

--Kim
Granby wrote:
My husband was in a car accident and in a wheelchair for many years. Some
of the best conversations we had were from questions from kids like "How did
your legs get broke." Or, Mr. what happened to you? " Bob always answered
because he felt that even though it sometimes was embarrassing, depending on
where we were. He felt someone might need help someday and that kid would
have learned that people in chairs are just PEOPLE

With myself having a rather bad vision problem, I have to tell you how my
Son handled people who were rude about physical problems.

My son has a vascular disease and has lost one leg and half of the other
foot. Right after he had his leg off
we were going into a Denny's for dinner. I was pushing Bob in his chair,
more hanging on to follow him truth be told. Mike was on his crutches
holding the door for us.

Some lady burst into tears, came up and grabbed me in a bear hug with the
following speech. "Oh you poor dear, you have your hands full. We should
all pray for you to have the strength to care for these two men. My Son
nearly fell off his crutches then, looked her in the eye and said "If we
hadn't let this Blind one drive, we wouldn't be in this shape."

Poor lady ran dragging her husband and to get away from us.

It was rude of him and, after I stopped laughing I told him so.

"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
Joy wrote:

wrote in message
...
It sounds like you're saying that even if it's obvious, it's not good
form to state it openly - is that it?
Exactly. It's the same thing as seeing someone in a wheelchair and
commenting on that fact. It is rude, to say the least.
Why is that rude? Personally, I am far more uncomfortable when everyone
talks *around* something, like it's just so shameful and horrifying to
mention. I'm not advocating ridicule or criticism of someone, but a
matter-of-fact statement about something obvious, if it's necessary to
make that statement (for example, if you're talking about wheelchair
accessibility in a public place), is not rude, IMO.
It is not rude, of course, to talk about wheelchair accessibility - if the
person who is in a wheelchair beside you has brought it up as a topic of
conversation. It is rude to say "oh, I notice you are in a wheelchair,
why is that?"
And I do understand this from the receiving end, by the way. I'm a large
woman, and I find it embarrassing and even kind of insulting when people
stand around looking uncomfortable and Not Saying Anything, as though
it's so horrifying and tragic that one must never mention it. I'm fat,
what is so terrible? There are physical realities that come up, which
might need to be discussed in some circumstances, and I'd rather people
just be matter-of-fact about it, in the same way they would be about,
say, a very tall man.

What is matter of fact to say about a fat person or a tall man? "Wow,
aren't you just so huge? how did you get like that?" or "Hiya, Lofty, is
it cold up there?"
Of course not. It is rude and insensitive. It does not need to be
mentioned how the human form varies in case it causes hurt for those who
do not correspond to "the norm" whatever that is.

Tweed