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Which prescription diet best for chronic constipation/lazy bowels?



 
 
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  #41  
Old July 19th 04, 04:40 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Gaubster wrote:

From:


Apparently it didn't occur to you that
managing crystals and dissolving them
are two different things.


Of course it did. But you're too busy
putting words into people's mouths to
stop and think, now aren't you?


I did no such thing and I challenge you
to prove it.


Well, you keep doing it--read on........



Let's see what the OP found out:
------------

Looks like they resolved that problem
with the help of the Hill's diets. Once
again, Megan your advice turns out to be
off the mark.


As is typical you use deception to try
to win your point (which you didn't.)
You conveniently failed to mention that
what the OP wrote about what was done
for his cat and why was posted two days
after my post.


I never made any parallels about time
frames (and neither did you for that
matter in your original post). I SAID:


Let's see what the OP found out:


Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND
OUT". Again, you are trying to twist
things around because your arrogance
doesn't allow you to admit when you are
wrong.


No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal
doesn't change reality.

Looks like they resolved that problem
with the help of the Hill's diets. Once
again, Megan your advice turns out to be
off the mark.


As is typical you use deception to try
to win your point (which you didn't.)


What part of my above statement is
"deceptive"?? It certainly does sound as
if the problem has been resolved with
"the help" of Hill's diets. Again, you
should look in the mirror before you
start letting the venom flow through
your fingertips.


You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by
following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark. You
also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong.
It was not. You know exactly what you did, it was deceptive, and this is
typical of you.

I've done plenty of research on how to
treat constipation, which is what this
cat had, and have found an approach that
works remarkably well without having to
resort to the poor quality prescription
foods that so many vets are brainwashed
into recommending.


Right here is where you trip yourself
up.


Not at all. I have made similar statements in the past and am
consistent.

The diets his cat were prescribed
were Hill's diets and worked. You don't
like Hill's and attempt to convince
other people to listen to you.


No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better
to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than
depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes
it.

This
particular case is just one example that
you are way off the mark (again).


No, you're wrong, because I've seen cats completely cured from having
constipation simply by changing their food to a high quality canned
diet. There are also hundreds of others on the IBD list alone that have
resolved constipation, diarrhea and IBD issues not by feeding
prescription diets, but by feeding foods that are as close to what a cat
would eat naturally as they can reasonably get. There are certainly
countless others that have been successful using a proper diet instead
of prescription foods as well. This is not rocket science and this
approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in
the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine
specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she
doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too.

Theraputic diets (especially Hill's)
have been successfully treating millions
of pets for almost 60 years.


And I have successfully treated many health issues without having to use
prescription diets, even though they were recommended. So have countless
others.

Why you
have a problem with that is beyond me.


Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often
undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a
problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high
quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof
that you are a shill for Hills.

Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or
STFU.


I gave you one example.


No, you didn't. You didn't post one quote that proved I "put words in
your mouth." In fact, in the glaringly erroneous example you used I
clearly stated that you "failed to mention." That means that you
*didn't* say something and can in no way, shape or form be called
"putting words in your mouth."

Megan



"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

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http://www.stopdeclaw.com

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"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray


  #42  
Old July 19th 04, 05:06 PM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From:

Megan, you're one of the biggest hypocrites on usenet. You moan and whine when
Steve (from the UK) "implies" that you said something and then when I accuse
you of putting words in my mouth (which you then promptly continued to do) you
bitch and moan about that too. The problem is that you "imply" stuff all the
time. The problem you have is that you can dish it out, but you can't take it!

Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND
OUT". Again, you are trying to twist
things around because your arrogance
doesn't allow you to admit when you are
wrong.


No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal
doesn't change reality.


No backpedalling neccessary, here. You were wrong, period! I think I've my
point. Anybody can go back and see for themselves.

You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by
following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark.


No, I stated my OPINION!!

You
also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong.
It was not.


Let's see....the OP didn't take your advice and yet the problem was resolved
anyway. Perhaps your advice would have worked in his case, perhaps not. It's
that simple, and you needn't turn it into a federal case!

The diets his cat were prescribed
were Hill's diets and worked. You don't
like Hill's and attempt to convince
other people to listen to you.


No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better
to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than
depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes
it.


If you cared so much about cats, you wouldn't impugn (specifically) Hill's
Prescription Diets that have been helping treat cats for over 50 years! Yet,
you continue to let your hatred get in the way of common sense and logic.



This is not rocket science and this
approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in
the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine
specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she
doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too.


You're taking things out of context. The study you stated from Dr. Greco
didn't specifically address the OP's specific case. As a matter of fact, you
"forgot" to answer my original question: Specfically relating to Dr. Greco's
research on low carb, high protein canned feline diets....what food did she
conduct her research with?? Hmmm?? If you think you are so familiar with her
research, this shouldn't be so hard to answer.

Theraputic diets (especially Hill's)
have been successfully treating millions
of pets for almost 60 years.



Why you
have a problem with that is beyond me.


Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often
undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a
problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high
quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof
that you are a shill for Hills.


That's your unfounded opinion. You still choose to IGNORE history and the
facts. If Hill's was so bad, then why do their products work so well?? I'd
take you more seriously if you weren't such a Hill's Hater! To answer my own
question put to you: The answer is Science Diet Kitten canned food. That's
the food that Dr. Greco did her original research on as it related to diabetic
cats. So much for your "low quality crap, full of grain" argument. Bye, bye
Megan. Better luck next time!
  #43  
Old July 19th 04, 05:06 PM
GAUBSTER2
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

From:

Megan, you're one of the biggest hypocrites on usenet. You moan and whine when
Steve (from the UK) "implies" that you said something and then when I accuse
you of putting words in my mouth (which you then promptly continued to do) you
bitch and moan about that too. The problem is that you "imply" stuff all the
time. The problem you have is that you can dish it out, but you can't take it!

Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND
OUT". Again, you are trying to twist
things around because your arrogance
doesn't allow you to admit when you are
wrong.


No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal
doesn't change reality.


No backpedalling neccessary, here. You were wrong, period! I think I've my
point. Anybody can go back and see for themselves.

You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by
following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark.


No, I stated my OPINION!!

You
also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong.
It was not.


Let's see....the OP didn't take your advice and yet the problem was resolved
anyway. Perhaps your advice would have worked in his case, perhaps not. It's
that simple, and you needn't turn it into a federal case!

The diets his cat were prescribed
were Hill's diets and worked. You don't
like Hill's and attempt to convince
other people to listen to you.


No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better
to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than
depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes
it.


If you cared so much about cats, you wouldn't impugn (specifically) Hill's
Prescription Diets that have been helping treat cats for over 50 years! Yet,
you continue to let your hatred get in the way of common sense and logic.



This is not rocket science and this
approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in
the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine
specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she
doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too.


You're taking things out of context. The study you stated from Dr. Greco
didn't specifically address the OP's specific case. As a matter of fact, you
"forgot" to answer my original question: Specfically relating to Dr. Greco's
research on low carb, high protein canned feline diets....what food did she
conduct her research with?? Hmmm?? If you think you are so familiar with her
research, this shouldn't be so hard to answer.

Theraputic diets (especially Hill's)
have been successfully treating millions
of pets for almost 60 years.



Why you
have a problem with that is beyond me.


Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often
undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a
problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high
quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof
that you are a shill for Hills.


That's your unfounded opinion. You still choose to IGNORE history and the
facts. If Hill's was so bad, then why do their products work so well?? I'd
take you more seriously if you weren't such a Hill's Hater! To answer my own
question put to you: The answer is Science Diet Kitten canned food. That's
the food that Dr. Greco did her original research on as it related to diabetic
cats. So much for your "low quality crap, full of grain" argument. Bye, bye
Megan. Better luck next time!
  #44  
Old July 20th 04, 09:39 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in message ...
(...)

Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're
focusing on corn gluten meal


No, I'm trying to establish whether you accept that CGM is an
'acceptable' ingedient, despite it being of vegetable origin. You seem
reluctant to see CGM as acceptable, although getting you to make a
definite statement in this respect is a bit like trying to polish a
cloud.


(...)
snip studies Steve hasn't read

Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read
the abstract in each case.


And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no
business using them. You should know better.


The purpose of an abstract is to distill the salient points of the
full paper. If you think that the abstracts of the papers I cited are
not representative of the paper's content, the feel free to point out
where in the paper this disagreement occurs.

You'll also be ecstatic to know that I've now read Riond et al. and it
does support that carbs (as polenta) are digestible - although
marginally more energy was lost in faeces on the high carb (added
polenta) diet versus the other diets tested, perhaps suggesting that
the high carb diet was slightly less digestible than the high fat or
high protein diets.

(...)

From a 2003 AVMA article available at
http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm:

(...)
inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This
obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate
content.

(...)
in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What
happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of
time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat.


I.e., cats can digest and 'utilize' carbs!

(...)
So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food,
high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a
"CatKins" diet,


Catkins my hairy arse - a ridiculous attempt to jump onto a human diet
bandwagon. She's simply suggesting that cats should be fed a diet
closer to their natural diet. I don't have an issue with that per se,
but if people start slapping nonsense nomenclature on there, then they
deserve a good shoeing.

(...)
way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said.
In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and
tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends
up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby
causing dental problems.


What about the various dental diets then, eh? Anecdotally: The cats
I've observed don't 'grind' dry food anyway, more like shear it into
small lumps, or even swallow it whole.


(...)

Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found
in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a
small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're
just trying to be annoying wit


An annoying wit, maybe, maybe...

(...)

Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer
rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat
(which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes,
raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to
him.


Rats are omnivores and scavengers (much like humans) and I don't see
their relevance in a cat discussion. Tangentially, my rats eat pretty
much anything -though they ain't so keen on sweet potatoes - and I
wouldn't fancy the cats' chances of consuming the rats in a knockdown
fight. This is all a propos nothing though, and I know how much you
hate that.

(...)

Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up.


Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of
this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have
shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I
posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet
can cause diabetes.


Yes, I also have read studies that suggest carbs can contribute to
urinary problems. However you were not making these specific points
earlier in the thread. You said:

'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of
grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that
just passes through'

(...)

Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility
of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food
companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the
digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute
questioning their use.


If we remove your additions of emotive terms, you are nearly at the
truth:

I do not 'justify' the digestibility of certain grain products, I
provide cites that show they *are*, to a large extent, digestible.

I do not 'question' the use of things like sweet potatoes, I point out
that all of the premium foods include vegetable products.

And I'm not 'singing the praises' of anything, which is probably just
as well for all listeners.

(...)
but if
you try to justify this by assigning all
manner of ills to carbs - well, there
just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you
have any cites?


I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I
challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said
grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue.


As above, you said:

'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of
grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that
just passes through'

Are you saying that you did't mean that the cat cannot use ('utilize')
grains? You did not say carbs specifically, but if you did not mean
carbs, then I'm not clear what you did mean.

You keep on
focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also
specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well,


No, you did not say they cannot utilize them well, you said 'grains
which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just
passes through'.

This seems quite clear, although perhaps you worded your statement
carelessly and did not actually mean what you wrote.

which
is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand
that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the
process of using that which has been converted, do you not?


If a foodstuff can be digested, then its energy is available for use
(i.e., as fat or stored glycogen).

(...)

For better or worse, many animals raised
for human consumption are indeed forced
to eat a species inappropriate diet.


And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on
your part and I expect better of you.


If you emoted less and thought more, 'twould be better. I gave no
justification, just a simple statement of fact. Take it as you will.

S.
  #45  
Old July 20th 04, 09:39 PM
Steve G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in message ...
(...)

Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're
focusing on corn gluten meal


No, I'm trying to establish whether you accept that CGM is an
'acceptable' ingedient, despite it being of vegetable origin. You seem
reluctant to see CGM as acceptable, although getting you to make a
definite statement in this respect is a bit like trying to polish a
cloud.


(...)
snip studies Steve hasn't read

Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read
the abstract in each case.


And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no
business using them. You should know better.


The purpose of an abstract is to distill the salient points of the
full paper. If you think that the abstracts of the papers I cited are
not representative of the paper's content, the feel free to point out
where in the paper this disagreement occurs.

You'll also be ecstatic to know that I've now read Riond et al. and it
does support that carbs (as polenta) are digestible - although
marginally more energy was lost in faeces on the high carb (added
polenta) diet versus the other diets tested, perhaps suggesting that
the high carb diet was slightly less digestible than the high fat or
high protein diets.

(...)

From a 2003 AVMA article available at
http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm:

(...)
inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This
obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate
content.

(...)
in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What
happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of
time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat.


I.e., cats can digest and 'utilize' carbs!

(...)
So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food,
high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a
"CatKins" diet,


Catkins my hairy arse - a ridiculous attempt to jump onto a human diet
bandwagon. She's simply suggesting that cats should be fed a diet
closer to their natural diet. I don't have an issue with that per se,
but if people start slapping nonsense nomenclature on there, then they
deserve a good shoeing.

(...)
way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said.
In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and
tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends
up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby
causing dental problems.


What about the various dental diets then, eh? Anecdotally: The cats
I've observed don't 'grind' dry food anyway, more like shear it into
small lumps, or even swallow it whole.


(...)

Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found
in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a
small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're
just trying to be annoying wit


An annoying wit, maybe, maybe...

(...)

Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer
rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat
(which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes,
raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to
him.


Rats are omnivores and scavengers (much like humans) and I don't see
their relevance in a cat discussion. Tangentially, my rats eat pretty
much anything -though they ain't so keen on sweet potatoes - and I
wouldn't fancy the cats' chances of consuming the rats in a knockdown
fight. This is all a propos nothing though, and I know how much you
hate that.

(...)

Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up.


Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of
this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have
shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I
posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet
can cause diabetes.


Yes, I also have read studies that suggest carbs can contribute to
urinary problems. However you were not making these specific points
earlier in the thread. You said:

'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of
grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that
just passes through'

(...)

Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility
of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food
companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the
digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute
questioning their use.


If we remove your additions of emotive terms, you are nearly at the
truth:

I do not 'justify' the digestibility of certain grain products, I
provide cites that show they *are*, to a large extent, digestible.

I do not 'question' the use of things like sweet potatoes, I point out
that all of the premium foods include vegetable products.

And I'm not 'singing the praises' of anything, which is probably just
as well for all listeners.

(...)
but if
you try to justify this by assigning all
manner of ills to carbs - well, there
just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you
have any cites?


I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I
challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said
grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue.


As above, you said:

'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of
grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that
just passes through'

Are you saying that you did't mean that the cat cannot use ('utilize')
grains? You did not say carbs specifically, but if you did not mean
carbs, then I'm not clear what you did mean.

You keep on
focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also
specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well,


No, you did not say they cannot utilize them well, you said 'grains
which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just
passes through'.

This seems quite clear, although perhaps you worded your statement
carelessly and did not actually mean what you wrote.

which
is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand
that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the
process of using that which has been converted, do you not?


If a foodstuff can be digested, then its energy is available for use
(i.e., as fat or stored glycogen).

(...)

For better or worse, many animals raised
for human consumption are indeed forced
to eat a species inappropriate diet.


And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on
your part and I expect better of you.


If you emoted less and thought more, 'twould be better. I gave no
justification, just a simple statement of fact. Take it as you will.

S.
 




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