Liz's Food recommendations

In article ,
(Steve Crane) wrote:

In article ,
(Steve Crane) wrote:

If you want to compare products you ought to compare products within
the same category. Both Wellness and Felidae are "All Life Stage"
foods, which means they have passed AFFCO testing for growth and are
indeed "kitten" foods. Therefore the correct comparison would be to
compare one growth food to another.


Science Diet adult products are designed and developed for adult
animals, not puppies or kittens and thus would not be subjected to the
growth trial. It would be purely a guess on my part, but I would guess
some might pass and others might not. Science Diet puppy and kitten
products could be labelled for "All Life Stages", however Hill's feels
this may mislead a pet owner into feeding a growth product to an
adult. Hill's has a tradition and history of treating disease with the
Prescription Diet products. As a consequence the level so fnutrients
like calcium and phosphorus that are so critical in renal failrue and
other diseases get particular attention. As a consequence dietary
development is always looking at the disease we see and trying to
avoid them. 50 years ago we saw pets in veterinary clinics with
examples of deficiencies in the diets, today we see only the results
of excesses in the veterinary clinic. (Outside of the occasional
animals dumped on the road and suffering from mal nutrition)

So there would be nothing precluding Science Diet Adult from
participating in a feed trial for growth, and no reason it wouldn't pass
except for nutrient levels that cause nutritional deficiency in young
growing animals.

Even the most bargain-basement Walmart and grocery store foods around
here have the AAFCO feed trial label for all life stages.

Either Science Diet is less nutritious than Dad's Original Cat Food, or
it's hypocritical for you to criticize a boutique brand because it plays
to the marketing hype and shoots for the "All Life Stages" label that
appeals to consumers.

Please give an example of a disease caused by nutritional excess, other
than obesity.

-Alison in OH

From: (Steve Crane)

(PawsForThought) wrote in message
...

Animal fat could be from any source, who knows? Ah wait, I just found
this website: http://www.hillssciencediet.info/DEFINITION.htm

Lauren

Lauren,
I'm begining to think you are purposefully being deceitful. You
have "just found" that same website for months. Never mind that proof
of the effectiveness of the very high levels of antioxidants matching
those in AP have been published in peer reviewed journals.
It should give a logically thinking grown-up some pause to wonder
why 99.99% of all practicing veterinarians, EVERY board certified
diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, and every
Board certified diplomate of the American College of Veterinary
Internal Medicine refuses to endorse the BARF philosophy. You have to
wonder what causes people to get so wrapped up in emotional judgements
that they refuse to accept what hard scientific proof and every
recognized expert suggests.

I was simply showing this new Hill's food that I saw advertised. As to the
link, I "just found" it in my bookmarks is what I meant. Sorry I didn't make
that more clear to you. But I'm still curious, what exactly is Hill's using
for its "animal fat"? Why do they use Brewer's Rice and not Whole Rice?

Steve, why are you bring up BARF diet? My post never mentioned a raw diet.
There are many, many vets who support a raw diet, just as there are those who
don't. I go by my cats' health, and I won't lie about it. They are much
healthier than they were on commercial catfood. We all have to decide what is
the best to feed our animals. I never try to convince anyone to switch their
cats to a raw diet because I know it involves lots of hard work, dedication and
research to be done correctly. However, if the person really does want to
switch their cats to a raw diet, I will help them if they ask. I got tired of
the chronic diseases I was seeing in my cats and so I decided to do something
about it in the only way I could, which was to feed them a fresh food diet. I
realize that not everyone wants to do this and I will recommend a good quality
commercial pet food. I think it really bothers you that I tell the truth about
my experiences with Hill's Science Diet, which was that none of my cats ever
did well on it. There was more volume of feces in the cat box, dry coats, some
had diahrrea or vomited from it. Once I switched them to a different food,
these things went away. I'm sorry, but Hill's just did not work for me, and I
have family and friends who had similar experiences.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: (Steve Crane)

(PawsForThought) wrote in message
...

Animal fat could be from any source, who knows? Ah wait, I just found
this website: http://www.hillssciencediet.info/DEFINITION.htm

Lauren

Lauren,
I'm begining to think you are purposefully being deceitful. You
have "just found" that same website for months. Never mind that proof
of the effectiveness of the very high levels of antioxidants matching
those in AP have been published in peer reviewed journals.
It should give a logically thinking grown-up some pause to wonder
why 99.99% of all practicing veterinarians, EVERY board certified
diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition, and every
Board certified diplomate of the American College of Veterinary
Internal Medicine refuses to endorse the BARF philosophy. You have to
wonder what causes people to get so wrapped up in emotional judgements
that they refuse to accept what hard scientific proof and every
recognized expert suggests.

I was simply showing this new Hill's food that I saw advertised. As to the
link, I "just found" it in my bookmarks is what I meant. Sorry I didn't make
that more clear to you. But I'm still curious, what exactly is Hill's using
for its "animal fat"? Why do they use Brewer's Rice and not Whole Rice?

Steve, why are you bring up BARF diet? My post never mentioned a raw diet.
There are many, many vets who support a raw diet, just as there are those who
don't. I go by my cats' health, and I won't lie about it. They are much
healthier than they were on commercial catfood. We all have to decide what is
the best to feed our animals. I never try to convince anyone to switch their
cats to a raw diet because I know it involves lots of hard work, dedication and
research to be done correctly. However, if the person really does want to
switch their cats to a raw diet, I will help them if they ask. I got tired of
the chronic diseases I was seeing in my cats and so I decided to do something
about it in the only way I could, which was to feed them a fresh food diet. I
realize that not everyone wants to do this and I will recommend a good quality
commercial pet food. I think it really bothers you that I tell the truth about
my experiences with Hill's Science Diet, which was that none of my cats ever
did well on it. There was more volume of feces in the cat box, dry coats, some
had diahrrea or vomited from it. Once I switched them to a different food,
these things went away. I'm sorry, but Hill's just did not work for me, and I
have family and friends who had similar experiences.

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
..snip

Please give an example of a disease caused by nutritional excess,
other than obesity.

-Alison in OH

Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about cats?
For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to numerous other
diseases. Not in cats?
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
..snip

Please give an example of a disease caused by nutritional excess,
other than obesity.

-Alison in OH

Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about cats?
For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to numerous other
diseases. Not in cats?
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

In article . net,
"Philip ®" wrote:

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
.snip

Please give an example of a disease caused by nutritional excess,
other than obesity.

-Alison in OH

Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about cats?
For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to numerous other
diseases. Not in cats?

Obesity in cats is generally caused by the consumption of too many
calories for the lifestyle of the cat. Since the owner of an indoor cat
has complete control over the cat's intake, I don't consider this to be
a failing in whatever complete commercial diet or other foodstuff that
the cat is consuming. I'm more interested in the justification for
restricting nutrients, including minerals, protein etc., in order to
stave off some disease that is directly caused by excess.

Yes, from what I understand obesity leads to diabetes in cats. Obesity
is not a light-weight matter 8-O, it's just not the kind of thing I am
looking for.

-Alison in OH

In article . net,
"Philip ®" wrote:

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
.snip

Please give an example of a disease caused by nutritional excess,
other than obesity.

-Alison in OH

Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about cats?
For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to numerous other
diseases. Not in cats?

Obesity in cats is generally caused by the consumption of too many
calories for the lifestyle of the cat. Since the owner of an indoor cat
has complete control over the cat's intake, I don't consider this to be
a failing in whatever complete commercial diet or other foodstuff that
the cat is consuming. I'm more interested in the justification for
restricting nutrients, including minerals, protein etc., in order to
stave off some disease that is directly caused by excess.

Yes, from what I understand obesity leads to diabetes in cats. Obesity
is not a light-weight matter 8-O, it's just not the kind of thing I am
looking for.

-Alison in OH

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
In article . net,
"Philip ®" wrote:
Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about
cats? For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to
numerous other diseases. Not in cats?

Obesity in cats is generally caused by the consumption of too many
calories for the lifestyle of the cat.

Oooo.... just like peoples! ;-)

Since the owner of an
indoor cat has complete control over the cat's intake, I don't
consider this to be a failing in whatever complete commercial diet
or other foodstuff that the cat is consuming.

Such a pain having to dole out just enough food so the cat does not
balloon out to twice its proper weight. Again, apparently I've been
lucky all along. I can leave out 3 days worth of dry food and the
cats have never attempted to inhale everything in sight the first
day. BUT... there is a neighbor lady who does have a cat who is a
roaming garbage disposal and then regurgitates what it has eaten if
there is more fresh to be had. Weird.

I'm more interested
in the justification for restricting nutrients, including
minerals, protein etc., in order to stave off some disease that is
directly caused by excess.

Yes, from what I understand obesity leads to diabetes in cats.
Obesity is not a light-weight matter 8-O, it's just not the kind
of thing I am looking for.

-Alison in OH

You've got a conclusion and are looking for supporting evidence. Not
a good research discipline.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

In ,
Alison Perera being of bellicose mind
posted:
In article . net,
"Philip ®" wrote:
Indirectly, being obese leads to diabetes in people. How about
cats? For that matter, obesity is a gateway condition to
numerous other diseases. Not in cats?

Obesity in cats is generally caused by the consumption of too many
calories for the lifestyle of the cat.

Oooo.... just like peoples! ;-)

Since the owner of an
indoor cat has complete control over the cat's intake, I don't
consider this to be a failing in whatever complete commercial diet
or other foodstuff that the cat is consuming.

Such a pain having to dole out just enough food so the cat does not
balloon out to twice its proper weight. Again, apparently I've been
lucky all along. I can leave out 3 days worth of dry food and the
cats have never attempted to inhale everything in sight the first
day. BUT... there is a neighbor lady who does have a cat who is a
roaming garbage disposal and then regurgitates what it has eaten if
there is more fresh to be had. Weird.

I'm more interested
in the justification for restricting nutrients, including
minerals, protein etc., in order to stave off some disease that is
directly caused by excess.

Yes, from what I understand obesity leads to diabetes in cats.
Obesity is not a light-weight matter 8-O, it's just not the kind
of thing I am looking for.

-Alison in OH

You've got a conclusion and are looking for supporting evidence. Not
a good research discipline.
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

In article . net,
"Philip ®" wrote:

I'm more interested
in the justification for restricting nutrients, including
minerals, protein etc., in order to stave off some disease that is
directly caused by excess.

Yes, from what I understand obesity leads to diabetes in cats.
Obesity is not a light-weight matter 8-O, it's just not the kind
of thing I am looking for.

-Alison in OH

You've got a conclusion and are looking for supporting evidence. Not
a good research discipline.

You're right, I should rephrase. Steve says:

Hill's has a tradition and history of treating disease with the
Prescription Diet products. As a consequence the level so fnutrients
like calcium and phosphorus that are so critical in renal failrue and
other diseases get particular attention. As a consequence dietary
development is always looking at the disease we see and trying to
avoid them. 50 years ago we saw pets in veterinary clinics with
examples of deficiencies in the diets, today we see only the results
of excesses in the veterinary clinic.

Ie, Hill's Science Diet is formulated to prevent nutritional excess.
This is apparently a strong motivator for Hill's R & D for the pet
market, and it's been repeated by folks such as Phil and Chris who
believe strongly that Hill's research represents the pinnacle of dietary
development.

I ask Steve what an example of disease caused by nutritional excess is,
because "dietary development is always looking at the disease we see and
trying to avoid them [sic]".

I am not expecting an answer that "obesity is a problem caused by
nutritional excess" because then Hill's would be developing and
marketing an educational campaign to get people to feed their cats less
food--including Hill's food, of course.

-Alison in OH