Update: Gabby and whether or not we have killed him yet. Warning: LONG.

Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting and
going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

Anyway, he is now almost TWICE his original size. His frame appears
HUGE to me now for some reason and he is weighs obviously more. You
can tell when he lands on you that his landings are thuds rather than
soft kitty landings.

He is still beautiful, still looks like 90% of him is one cat, while
10% of him is ring-tailed lemur or raccoon.

He comes when called, knows several words and phrases and listens all
the time when it involves food and at least half of the time when it
involves stopping what he's doing.

He is still ferocious and attacks at will, but we can keep him calm
enough. Now when I pet him, he nuzzles me keeping his mouth closed
but rubs his teeth on me. Or sometimes he opens his mouth and bites
with no pressure -- kind of like he took his teeth out of his mouth
and just rested them on me. See #3 for more information on this
note.

The other day he was in a "bounce off of everything mood" so wound up
halfway out of the door when I let the dogs out for the restroom
before I could stop him. What he did do? He looked as if he had
just been shot in the chest, totally bewildered and shocked, looked
back and forth several times before spinning in a circle twice to see
where he was, noticed the open door and me standing there giggling,
and bolted back inside. He evidently does NOT want to go back to his
stray no-home lifestyle. Who could blame him?

I am quite convinced that what CatNipped sometimes says is absolutely
true -- kittens are stupid. Gabby likes to sneak his head under the
couch sideways (so that it fits) and then try and pull it out with
his head upright (which doesn't fit). So he winds up screaming and
digging in with all his might to reverse his path -- which doesn't
work. A few times he has been lucky enough to realize he should
crawl forward putting his entire body under the couch and then
crawling out -- yep, you guessed it, by putting his head sideways out
and under the couch. I say lucky and not smart because he does not
do it on purpose in my opinion. Only as a last resort which makes
him pretty daft.

Also, we believe that we have bested his crazy "kill all" mentality
(for the most part anyway). The few things we've done differently.

1. No more playing rough (thank you CatNipped and Sheelagh (quite
possibly more)).

2. Timeouts - I think this was most fundamental in the "cooling
down" stage. The crazier he acted the longer he stayed in the kennel
in a side room. The best he got was seeing us walk past the room.
He has even gotten to the point he won't cry out immediately because
he knows we are ignoring him. After a significant timeout he calls
softly to us and we let him out. And he stays calm for some time.
(Thanks to myself for this one, and RobZip for letting me know I
wasn't being cruel in doing so.)

3. Keeping those claws trimmed - Screw the nail coverings, forget
the "teach him to not scratch stuff" method, none of those were
effective. Cutting his nails as professional as possible and filing
them have proven to be amazing! (Thanks to those who gave advice
about trimming nails, how often to do it, how to pay attention to the
location of the quick, et cetera. Sadly, my memory does not allow me
to name specifically each individual who helped. (Although a Google
Groups search could assist.))

Keeping his claws trimmed down introduced a SEVERE biting problem. I
already mentioned in another post where the spouse had to "choke"
Gabby off of one of our daughters. He was so worked up that he would
NOT let go of our daughter and did SERIOUS damage after just a few
seconds. Does she hate him? No, but it seriously damaged their
relationship. She doesn't want anything to do with him as do the
rest of our children. Which is most definitely sad.

I hope that he continues this current streak of moderately good
behavior and they can eventually calm down around him. It breaks my
heart to see him in a "mood" and the girls stand at the ready in
defensive postures blocking their faces or with arms extended ready
to swat at him if/when he jumps at them.

The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult
to one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are
not at 8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no
questions asked. But enough of that negative thinking -- my boy has
been behaving GREAT for almost a week!

4. NO DECLAW - This is actually part of 3. Thanks to Megan
(http://www.stopdeclaw.com), cybercat, --MIKE, and several others who
prevented me from harming my beautiful boy.

See: Message-ID:

5. Cans of pressurized air - Thanks goes to ALL who mentioned things
like shaking cans of marbles, pill bottles (that was mine), coins, et
cetera to calm a kitty down. However, it didn't work. Nor did
yelling. Nor did whistles. Nor did popping balloons. Nor did
insert about ten other methods. Finally I got the bright idea to
spray at him with canned air (NEVER at his face). One quick
"SSSSSHHHHTT!!" at his bottom or his feet and he IMMEDIATELY stops
the craziness. I refused to subscribe to the "he will become afraid
of it" mentality simply because it was not hurting him. And luckily
it worked. Considering this was a necessity to determine Gabby's
fate, to us it was a gamble that was well worth the risk.

6. Grass - I forgot who initially mentioned this, but thank you!
And a BIG thanks to --MIKE as well. Gabby was scared to death of
this stuff at first but after only ten minutes he had snatched his
first piece from the pot and was going to town.

The entire family tried eating some (we always try whatever the
animals have to eat) and none of us were impressed. I did try making
a salad out of it since it did not have the normal bitter taste of
normal grass and it turned out wonderful. I'll save that recipe for
my cookbook though. : )

7. Persistence (thank you Matt, cybercat, CatNipped, Sheelagh, and
several others that my memory simply won't allow me to name). We
were ready to believe that cats could not become socially trained
animals, especially since he was getting worse. Thanks to the above
tips amongst all of the other good advice we got here, it is
definitely a keen situation again.

I cannot stretch the truth and say there aren't times when he doesn't
push the boundaries to the VERY limit, but at least for the most part
he redeems himself. And for the times he does not, he sits in "kitty
prison" (the kennel) until he realizes the error of his ways.

For the most part, I have my loving and gentle kitten back and I
thank you all for it.

Thanks to everyone who showed patience without being an arse about it
-- CatNipped, Sheelagh, --MIKE, Matthew, cybercat (yes, I said
cybercat), mlbriggs, PawsForThought, and more I cannot remember.

**
See my next installment in a few days entitled: "Gabby did something
crazy again. We thought about killing him. Then he softened me up.
Then he did something crazy again so I almost killed him. Then he
did something nice and sweet. Then topic cut off due to length..."

** ; )

See ya'!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting and
going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

Anyway, he is now almost TWICE his original size. His frame appears
HUGE to me now for some reason and he is weighs obviously more. You
can tell when he lands on you that his landings are thuds rather than
soft kitty landings.

He is still beautiful, still looks like 90% of him is one cat, while
10% of him is ring-tailed lemur or raccoon.


Thanks for an excellent post. I am glad things are working out. Now then ...
I NEED to see a photo of this cat!

Response to "cybercat" :

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting
and going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

Anyway, he is now almost TWICE his original size. His frame
appears HUGE to me now for some reason and he is weighs obviously
more. You can tell when he lands on you that his landings are
thuds rather than soft kitty landings.

He is still beautiful, still looks like 90% of him is one cat,
while 10% of him is ring-tailed lemur or raccoon.


Thanks for an excellent post. I am glad things are working out.
Now then ... I NEED to see a photo of this cat!

Hey, sorry it took so long cybercat. I was checking out a few
options and decided to go with Picasa.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Lost.Gab...?authkey=3fwq-
CIu_pQ

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting and
going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

SNIP Gabby's adventures

Hmmmm. I'm still worried about that biting - that's *not* good. A cat bite
is very nasty and can cause some severe medical problems (the only worse
bite is a human's). Aside from the kitten cry of "uncle", a high-pitched
*MEW*, I don't know what else to tell you - that always worked for me with
no further training needed. Would you be open to talking to an animal
behavorist? Your vet probably knows one in your area. As much as I hate
the idea of euthanasia, you really do have to think of your children first.
As a precaution, you might want to make sure everyone in your household is
up to date on their tetanus shots. In the meantime, I'll do a little more
research on bite prevention and see what I can come up with.

Hugs,

CatNipped

-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Response to "CatNipped" :

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting
and going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

SNIP Gabby's adventures

Hmmmm. I'm still worried about that biting - that's *not* good.

Believe me, I know! Gabby's last two attacks have been VERY serious.
He gets himself worked into such a frenzy that he refuses to let go.

This last episode he actually shook his head back and forth on one of
my daughter's shoulders ripping several tooth holes in her shirt and
of course her skin.

A cat bite is very nasty and can cause some severe medical
problems (the only worse bite is a human's). Aside from the
kitten cry of "uncle", a high-pitched *MEW*, I don't know what
else to tell you - that always worked for me with no further
training needed. Would you be open to talking to an animal
behavorist? Your vet probably knows one in your area. As much as
I hate the idea of euthanasia, you really do have to think of your
children first. As a precaution, you might want to make sure
everyone in your household is up to date on their tetanus shots.
In the meantime, I'll do a little more research on bite prevention
and see what I can come up with.

Well, I have actually contacted all the vets in this area and none
have any idea about anything like that. I also asked about a "cat
trainer," "cat whisperer," "cat anything," and the best they came up
with was the free awareness classes the refuge holds. The refuge
said that I was already up to speed on everything they teach.

....and again, she (the refuge owner) strongly urged that I get Gabby
declawed for safety reasons since it is evident he gets a mean streak
once in a while. ANYWAY.

I even contacted my friend's dad who runs the top notch dog training
school around here and he had no clue what to do with a cat aside
from training dogs with one. He meant to teach them how to behave,
not how to eat the cat!

And please do (more research), because so far you are the only one
(that I remember) who has offered any real help in regards to his
"violence."

I have to note for the record though, that he is STILL being good.
For I think almost a week or a little over a week he has been
outstanding. Hyper as hell and doing some of the craziest oddball
stuff I have ever seen, but its not US he's doing it to so it's fine
by me AND the other occupants of this house -- furry or not.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Response to "CatNipped" :

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Nope, he's still kicking... or should I say scratching and biting
and going ape bouncing off of walls? *shrugs*

SNIP Gabby's adventures

Hmmmm. I'm still worried about that biting - that's *not* good.

Believe me, I know! Gabby's last two attacks have been VERY serious.
He gets himself worked into such a frenzy that he refuses to let go.

This last episode he actually shook his head back and forth on one of
my daughter's shoulders ripping several tooth holes in her shirt and
of course her skin.

A cat bite is very nasty and can cause some severe medical
problems (the only worse bite is a human's). Aside from the
kitten cry of "uncle", a high-pitched *MEW*, I don't know what
else to tell you - that always worked for me with no further
training needed. Would you be open to talking to an animal
behavorist? Your vet probably knows one in your area. As much as
I hate the idea of euthanasia, you really do have to think of your
children first. As a precaution, you might want to make sure
everyone in your household is up to date on their tetanus shots.
In the meantime, I'll do a little more research on bite prevention
and see what I can come up with.

Well, I have actually contacted all the vets in this area and none
have any idea about anything like that. I also asked about a "cat
trainer," "cat whisperer," "cat anything," and the best they came up
with was the free awareness classes the refuge holds. The refuge
said that I was already up to speed on everything they teach.

...and again, she (the refuge owner) strongly urged that I get Gabby
declawed for safety reasons since it is evident he gets a mean streak
once in a while. ANYWAY.

I even contacted my friend's dad who runs the top notch dog training
school around here and he had no clue what to do with a cat aside
from training dogs with one. He meant to teach them how to behave,
not how to eat the cat!

And please do (more research), because so far you are the only one
(that I remember) who has offered any real help in regards to his
"violence."

I have to note for the record though, that he is STILL being good.
For I think almost a week or a little over a week he has been
outstanding. Hyper as hell and doing some of the craziest oddball
stuff I have ever seen, but its not US he's doing it to so it's fine
by me AND the other occupants of this house -- furry or not.

If he's still doing it in play (mock hunting/killing), and not out of anger
or fear, the problem will take care of itself with time. But it will be
quite a while before his playing tapers off - and the larger he is the more
damage he can cause.

Can you teach the girls and your spouse the kitty "uncle" cry? I don't
think he's taking his agression out on them because you won't let him with
you, I think he probably thinks you're a big wuss and has found others to
play with who aren't (again, kittens playing together use that as a signal
that one is getting too rough and is hurting - if he's not getting that
response he may think he's not hurting the girls... I don't know this for
sure since I'm not there to witness his attacks, but it is a possibility).

Hugs,

CatNipped


--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

Response to "CatNipped" :

If he's still doing it in play (mock hunting/killing), and not out
of anger or fear, the problem will take care of itself with time.
But it will be quite a while before his playing tapers off - and
the larger he is the more damage he can cause.

Can you teach the girls and your spouse the kitty "uncle" cry? I
don't think he's taking his agression out on them because you
won't let him with you, I think he probably thinks you're a big
wuss and has found others to play with who aren't (again, kittens
playing together use that as a signal that one is getting too
rough and is hurting - if he's not getting that response he may
think he's not hurting the girls... I don't know this for sure
since I'm not there to witness his attacks, but it is a
possibility).

Yep, taught everyone in the house and showed them your lovely video.
Gabby just shrugs it off -- then again I can do it louder than anyone
here.

I wondered about that too after thinking about the fact that I was
crying uncle in kittenese. Heh. I'm the tough one in the home and
he thinks I'm the wuss -- it figures.

Ah well, still plugging along with all the suggestions and trying new
ones. Today to get him to stop knocking over a pencil holder I used
a training clicker, but one that was extremely loud. It reminds me
of smacking a hard plastic fly swatter on linoleum. He doesn't stop
what he's doing, but it makes him pause for a second or so -- do that
a few times and he goes on to something else.

Thanks again, CatNipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Response to "CatNipped" :

If he's still doing it in play (mock hunting/killing), and not out
of anger or fear, the problem will take care of itself with time.
But it will be quite a while before his playing tapers off - and
the larger he is the more damage he can cause.

Can you teach the girls and your spouse the kitty "uncle" cry? I
don't think he's taking his agression out on them because you
won't let him with you, I think he probably thinks you're a big
wuss and has found others to play with who aren't (again, kittens
playing together use that as a signal that one is getting too
rough and is hurting - if he's not getting that response he may
think he's not hurting the girls... I don't know this for sure
since I'm not there to witness his attacks, but it is a
possibility).

Yep, taught everyone in the house and showed them your lovely video.
Gabby just shrugs it off -- then again I can do it louder than anyone
here.

I wondered about that too after thinking about the fact that I was
crying uncle in kittenese. Heh. I'm the tough one in the home and
he thinks I'm the wuss -- it figures.

Ah well, still plugging along with all the suggestions and trying new
ones. Today to get him to stop knocking over a pencil holder I used
a training clicker, but one that was extremely loud. It reminds me
of smacking a hard plastic fly swatter on linoleum. He doesn't stop
what he's doing, but it makes him pause for a second or so -- do that
a few times and he goes on to something else.

I know how annoying a kitten can be and just *how much* of your house he can
destroy, but if I were you I'd concentrate on getting him to stop biting
before taking on all the other training (of course, I've never cared what
condition kittens or babies left my house in! ;). By trying to teach him
everything at once, you're probably not teaching him anything at all. Cats
are much, *MUCH* different from dogs when it comes to training. Dogs want
to please you, cats want you to please them! ;

Hugs,

CatNipped


Thanks again, CatNipped.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

"-Lost" wrote in message
...
Response to "CatNipped" :

If he's still doing it in play (mock hunting/killing), and not out
of anger or fear, the problem will take care of itself with time.
But it will be quite a while before his playing tapers off - and
the larger he is the more damage he can cause.

Can you teach the girls and your spouse the kitty "uncle" cry? I
don't think he's taking his agression out on them because you
won't let him with you, I think he probably thinks you're a big
wuss and has found others to play with who aren't (again, kittens
playing together use that as a signal that one is getting too
rough and is hurting - if he's not getting that response he may
think he's not hurting the girls... I don't know this for sure
since I'm not there to witness his attacks, but it is a
possibility).

Yep, taught everyone in the house and showed them your lovely video.
Gabby just shrugs it off -- then again I can do it louder than anyone
here.

Sorry to reply to this yet again, but I'm worried about Gabby and want to
help...

The problem may not be volume, but tone. I remember reading some research
years ago (can't find it now, so the numbers may be a little off, but not
much) that said human language consists of about 30 - 40 different sounds
(vowels and consonents in every language) in different combinations, but
cats' could make over 100 different sounds in different combinations. Their
language is a lot broader than ours (probably because their range of hearing
is so much broader than ours). So it's pretty important to get the tone
right in order to get the meaning across.

While casually browsing for this study, I came across this which is kind of
interesting also - from my exhaustive study of felinese, I concur with his
interpretations: ;

Kittens:
- Mew (high pitched and thin) - a polite plea for help
- MEW! (loud and frantic) - an urgent plea for help

Adult cats:
- mew - plea for attention
- mew (soundless) - a very polite plea for attention (this is Paul
Gallico's "Silent Miaow" which is probably a sound pitched too high for
human ears)
- meow - emphatic plea for attention
- MEOW! - a command!
- mee-o-ow (with falling cadence) - protest or whine
- MEE-o-ow (shrill whine) - stronger protest
- MYUP! (short, sharp, single note) - righteous indignation
- MEOW! Meow! (repeated) - panicky call for help
- mier-r-r-ow (chirrup with liting cadence) - friendly greeting

Tomcats:
- RR-YOWWW-EEOW-RR-YOW-OR - caterwaul
- merrow - challenge to another male
- meriow - courting call to female

Mother cats:
- MEE-OW - come and get it!
- meOW - follow me!
- ME R-R-R-ROW - take cover!
- mer ROW! - No! or Stop It!
- mreeeep (burbled) - hello greeting to kittens and disarming greeting to
adult cats (also used between adult cats and humans)


There is more to felinese than the simple miaow though. In 1944, Mildred
Moelk made a detailed study of cat vocabulary and found sixteen meaningful
sounds, which included consonants and vowels. She divided cat-sounds into
three groups:-

- murmurs made with the mouth closed
- vowel sounds made with the mouth closing as in "iao"
- sounds made with the mouth held open.

Although these may not be used in grammatical sentences, one definition of
language is "any means, vocal or other, of expressing or communicating
feeling or thought" (Webster's Dictionary). Observant owners will notice the
following sounds which cats make to communicate their state of mind (this
list is not exhaustive, since cats will improvise):

- Caterwaul - cat wants sex!
- Chatter - excitement, frustration e.g. when prey is out of reach or
escapes (involves rapid teeth-chattering jaw movements)
- Chirrup - friendly greeting sound, a cross between a meow and a purr!
(friendly greeting sound with rising inflection; familiar to most cat
owners)
- Cough-bark - alarm signal (rare in pet cats); like us, cats can cough
both vountarily and involuntarily)
- Growl - threat, challenge, warns others to go away
- Hiss (with or without spit) - threat, fear, warns others to back off
- Meow - general-purpose attention seeking sound used by adult cats to
communicate with owners or with kittens
- Mew (of kittens) - distress, hunger, cold (to attract mother's attention)
- Purr - contentment, relaxation, also to comfort itself if in pain (cats
in extremis may purr); a loud purr invites close contact or attention
- Scream - fear, pain, anger, distress
- Squawk - surprise, shock (somewhat strangled sound)
- Yowl - a threat, offensive or defensive, but also used in a modified form
by some cats seeking attention when owner is out of sight
- Idiosyncratic sounds - a sound which a particular cat uses in a
particular context.

Hugs,

CatNipped

On Nov 9, 1:58 pm, "-Lost" wrote:

book length post snipped

The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult
to one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are
not at 8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no
questions asked. But enough of that negative thinking -- my boy has
been behaving GREAT for almost a week!

Gah! Sounds like your cat is acting like a playful teenager who
perhaps hasn't been properly socialized, and who sounds like he would
definitely benefit from another young cat playmate. I would hope
before it comes to the point of you dumping him at a shelter to be
euthanized, that you would rehome him to someone who truly wants to,
and can, spend the necessary time with him. Yes, I know you've been
trying to work with him (and thanks for not declawing, btw), but what
you wrote above worries me.