Dog lover turned kitten mother, LOTS of questions..

In , "rainyseason"
wrote:

| And Nicole, you've still not answered the question of why you refuse
| to try SoftPaws.

| Or claw trimming.

| Or even wait and see?

Chances are that the vet in question offers a "discount" for a combo
spay-and-declaw "deal". So there's still time.

| Tiny scratchy kittens soon learn not to scratch. They don't do it on
| purpose, they just need to learn how to retract their claws.

Yes. This is one of the reasons why a kitten needs other cats, to
socialize properly. Claw control is an important part of the early
training. (So are things like litterbox habits and grooming.)

| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

Unfortunately, the reverse may not be true. The fact of the matter is
that accidents are *invariably* the human child's fault, but few parents
are willing to concede that their darlings could have been responsible.
Far more important than teaching pets about children - pets learn much
more quickly than they're given credit for - is teaching children about
pets - because children as a rule don't learn quickly enough.

This is why rescue organizations generally don't adopt out to households
with (small) children.

| Some ways I taught my kittens not to scratch - play with them a lot with
| toys on a stick, never with hands. Withdraw hands if they want to play
| with them.

This is indeed very important. Use hands to touch their paws only while
petting (and/or brushing), never at play time.

| Get another kitten and they'll teach each other to play fair.

This is very good advice. Kittens should not be alone. As they grow
older, playing with each other will keep them out of other mischief.

Two littermates I trapped at about 11 weeks of age and then fostered
were a case in point. They came with almost perfect claw control - the
only time they used claws inadvertently was when they tried to clamber
onto my lap rather than jump up. Crying out in pain, and then setting
them down and ignoring them, did the trick - it took about a week.

By contrast, another kitten I trapped at 14 weeks (and still have) had
claw control problems, that took significantly longer to overcome. He
was the only survivor of his litter, and there were no other kittens or
juvenile cats in his feral colony. He missed out on a very important
part of growing up to be a cat. My other cat taught him a lot, but the
finer points of claw control were still lost on him for a while (a cat's
hide can take a lot more "punishment" than human skin.)

| Or maybe he'll learn that from the dog, I don't know about dogs so I'm
| just guessing here.

Dogs can also be very good teachers. Depends on the dog, of course.

| BTW, we just got a rescue kitten who turned scratchy and I received
| advice from people here. We just needed to give her a bit of time and
| space on her own and she's back to normal.

It takes observation, understanding and patience. There is no quick
fix.

[De-joepardied]

In nk.net, "Nicole"
wrote:
| "Laura R." wrote in message
| .net...
| circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| Nicole ) said,

| It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
|
| How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
| of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
| cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
| that it was "humane"?

| If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
| your eating habits

Changing the subject, as usual.

I think you're lying. You have *not* seen the procedure.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong. Describe what you saw.

I'll even make it easy for you to make things up:

http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

See those bones on the towel? Did you pick one up to see how much came
off? Here's a page with diagrams so that you can be absolutely sure of
the anatomy:

http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Bonus points for answering this: what about the bleeding during the
procedure?

Haven't a clue, eh?

[De-joepardied]

In nk.net, "Nicole"
wrote:
| "Laura R." wrote in message
| .net...
| circa Mon, 07 Jul 2003 03:04:48 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| Nicole ) said,

| It took a lot of convincing, and my vet even let me watch a procedure...
|
| How much of it did you watch? Did you see exactly what it consists
| of? It is *cutting off the cat's first joint*. What if your toes were
| cut off at the first joint? How agile would you be? Would you feel
| that it was "humane"?

| If you would like to talk about inhumane then perhaps we should talk about
| your eating habits

Changing the subject, as usual.

I think you're lying. You have *not* seen the procedure.

Here's your chance to prove me wrong. Describe what you saw.

I'll even make it easy for you to make things up:

http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

See those bones on the towel? Did you pick one up to see how much came
off? Here's a page with diagrams so that you can be absolutely sure of
the anatomy:

http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

Bonus points for answering this: what about the bleeding during the
procedure?

Haven't a clue, eh?

Laura R. wrote:

circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cathy Friedmann ) said,
Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
other person's opinions.

Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
Nicole did.

Laura

Posting baseless abuse reports puts her in the category they call
"Internet Kook" and she deserves anything Arjun dishes out.

Instructions :

In this section give your Prospective Kook ONE point for every YES
answer.

Give your Prospective Kook additional points for multiple occurrences.

Grading scale follows questions.

Have they ever :

1. Been the first to go ad-hominem in a newsgroup debate.
2. Accused someone of breaking a non-existant Federal Law.
3. Called a properly formatted cancel of a BI20 article a *forged
cancel*
4. Ranted about *Free Speech* when a moderator rejected your article.
Two points if it's spelled "FREE SPEACH".
5. Tried to censor others, yet scream when others suggest that they
killfile them or create a moderated newsgroup.
6. Complained to someone's ISP when you got spanked in a flame war.
7. Been complained about to your ISP deservedly.
8. Flamed someone from an anonymous account.
9. Made a spelling flame. (*)
10. Used RANT-CAPS & manic punctuation.
11. Claimed to be qualified to make a legal determination or medical
diagnosis with no justification - bonus points if the kook is
obviously projecting her/his *own* condition/behaviour. (**)

In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES

Laura R. wrote:

circa Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:37:43 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cathy Friedmann ) said,
Posting someone's PEM is in poor taste & rude, no matter your gripe w/ the
other person's opinions.

Well, so is sending an abuse report to somebody's ISP claiming that
s/he is a "hate mail sender" just because you disagree with them. I'm
not trying to enter into this particular fray, I'm just pointing out
that if you read the whole post, you'll see that that is just what
Nicole did.

Laura

Posting baseless abuse reports puts her in the category they call
"Internet Kook" and she deserves anything Arjun dishes out.

Instructions :

In this section give your Prospective Kook ONE point for every YES
answer.

Give your Prospective Kook additional points for multiple occurrences.

Grading scale follows questions.

Have they ever :

1. Been the first to go ad-hominem in a newsgroup debate.
2. Accused someone of breaking a non-existant Federal Law.
3. Called a properly formatted cancel of a BI20 article a *forged
cancel*
4. Ranted about *Free Speech* when a moderator rejected your article.
Two points if it's spelled "FREE SPEACH".
5. Tried to censor others, yet scream when others suggest that they
killfile them or create a moderated newsgroup.
6. Complained to someone's ISP when you got spanked in a flame war.
7. Been complained about to your ISP deservedly.
8. Flamed someone from an anonymous account.
9. Made a spelling flame. (*)
10. Used RANT-CAPS & manic punctuation.
11. Claimed to be qualified to make a legal determination or medical
diagnosis with no justification - bonus points if the kook is
obviously projecting her/his *own* condition/behaviour. (**)

In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES

In , Laura R.
wrote:
| circa 8 Jul 2003 15:11:14 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Arjun
| Ray ) said,
| http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

| The pictures at the very bottom of the page would certainly seem to
| indicate that declawing is *not* a humane or safe procedure. I wonder
| if those cats' owners felt as horrible as they deserve to feel for
| doing that to their cats.

Sure they do - once they know. The guilt is unavoidable, but with
rational people, this usually passes. For one thing, what's done is
done - they can't go back and undo it. For another, the knowledge is
liberating - it's better to know than to be ignorant or deluded and then
defensively go into denial.

That's what happened in another newsgroup recently. Someone who had
declawed her cats insisted that it wasn't abuse, just routine surgery.
She didn't believe that declawing was amputation ("Where did you get
toes being cut off?? Get real!"), or that the pain is so reliable that
declaw post-ops are used to test painkillers.

But when presented with the facts, she had the *balls* to say that the
knowledge was better than continuing in denial:

"I have had a couple cats over the years that were declawed. You
giving me the facts like that was like a slap in the face. You think
I want to ADMIT I did something barbaric and painful to my cherished
and beloved cats? My babies? When you posted those links yesterday,
I refused to read them. I was sticking by my guns. I did NOT abuse
my babies, no way, no how, no way.

Well I did read them today. Thanks a lot!"

and signed her name with the comment: "eyes opened a little more and
feeling guilty as hell".

For someone with as fundmentally healthy attitude as she, the guilt will
pass. The knowledge will now allow her to say with conviction, "Never
again."

In , Laura R.
wrote:
| circa 8 Jul 2003 15:11:14 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Arjun
| Ray ) said,
| http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm

| The pictures at the very bottom of the page would certainly seem to
| indicate that declawing is *not* a humane or safe procedure. I wonder
| if those cats' owners felt as horrible as they deserve to feel for
| doing that to their cats.

Sure they do - once they know. The guilt is unavoidable, but with
rational people, this usually passes. For one thing, what's done is
done - they can't go back and undo it. For another, the knowledge is
liberating - it's better to know than to be ignorant or deluded and then
defensively go into denial.

That's what happened in another newsgroup recently. Someone who had
declawed her cats insisted that it wasn't abuse, just routine surgery.
She didn't believe that declawing was amputation ("Where did you get
toes being cut off?? Get real!"), or that the pain is so reliable that
declaw post-ops are used to test painkillers.

But when presented with the facts, she had the *balls* to say that the
knowledge was better than continuing in denial:

"I have had a couple cats over the years that were declawed. You
giving me the facts like that was like a slap in the face. You think
I want to ADMIT I did something barbaric and painful to my cherished
and beloved cats? My babies? When you posted those links yesterday,
I refused to read them. I was sticking by my guns. I did NOT abuse
my babies, no way, no how, no way.

Well I did read them today. Thanks a lot!"

and signed her name with the comment: "eyes opened a little more and
feeling guilty as hell".

For someone with as fundmentally healthy attitude as she, the guilt will
pass. The knowledge will now allow her to say with conviction, "Never
again."

In , Laura R.
wrote:

| circa Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:10:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| )
| said,
| In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES
|
| Where's section two? I was enjoying that!

IINM, this is the KAT (Kook Appraisal Test), posted to alt.usenet.kooks
quite a while back:




There must be um, upgrades around somewhere.

In , Laura R.
wrote:

| circa Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:10:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
| )
| said,
| In this section give your Prospective Kook TWO points for every YES
|
| Where's section two? I was enjoying that!

IINM, this is the KAT (Kook Appraisal Test), posted to alt.usenet.kooks
quite a while back:




There must be um, upgrades around somewhere.

| If your baby wants to annoy the cat, teach it to respect it. You'll
| need to do that whether the cat is declawed anyway. Cats learn to keep
| their distance with an over exhuberant toddler.

You're absolutely right. Cats and babies can be raised together with no
permanent damage to either species. I know this. I did it.

Sherry