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#31
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Behavioural problems...
On Feb 6, 11:10*am, DWMeowMix wrote:
On Feb 5, 6:48*pm, Wayne Mitchell wrote: It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. *But only a small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food allergies of *any* kind. *And when they do, the offending food is almost always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. *Allergies to all the grains combined do not equal any one of those five. *So the chances of a cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule. -- Wayne M. And where are your references and cites for making such a sweeping statement? Debbie Here let me help: "Food allergies account for about 10% of all the allergies seen in cats and dogs. It is the third most common cause after flea bite allergies and atopy (inhalant allergies). " http://www.peteducation.com/article....1+1332&aid=142 "Cats often develop "food allergies" or "food intolerances" to ingredients found in commercial cat food. The top allergens a chicken, fish and corn (very common cat food ingredients), beef (often referred to as "meat by-products" or "meat and bone meal" on pet food labels), wheat, and dairy products. However, an allergy can develop to any protein to which the cat is repeatedly or constantly exposed. " http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ergi esincats "Here are some highlights from the article in CATS Magazine, April 1992, pertaining to cats with allergies. Cats can suffer from a wide range of allergies. A cat with one allergy often has others. 15% of all cats in the U.S. suffer from one or more allergies. *Cats' allergies fall into several categories, each with a parallel complaint among human allergy sufferers. Inhalant allergies are caused by airborne articles, such as pollen, that irritate the nasal passages and lungs. Contact alllergies manifest themselves when the cat has prolonged contact with a substance that it just cannot tolerate. *Cats have allergies to foods as well -- not so much to the chemical preservatives but to the grains, meats and dairy products used. Some cats react badly to certain drugs, such as antibiotics or anesthesia. *Flea allergy is the most common of all allergies. As cats age, their sensitivity to flea bites increases. Prednisone (oral or injection) is commonly used for a bad reaction. *Between 5 & 10 percent of allergy cases are caused by food. Like contact allergies, food allergies will show up as dermatitis and severe itching but in some cases will also cause vomiting and diarrhea. Also, the cat may have excessively oily skin, ear inflammation, or hair loss (which can also be a sign of hormone imbalance). *A food allergy doesn't show up overnight. It can take from a week to 10 years of exposure to show itself; more than 80 percent of cats with food allergies have been eating the allergen-containing food for more than two years. http://fanciers.com/cat-faqs/medical-info.shtml -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More on nutrition: "Please visit the following websites for more information: http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ http://www.newsagepress.com/foodpetsdiefor.html http://www.catnutrition.org/index.php http://www.catinfo.org/ http://www.rawmeatybones.com I think that the general public should be informed as to the dangers of most commercial pet foods. The industry standards for pet food are seriously lacking, compared to those for the human food industry. You can't imagine the toxins and waste products that are added to pet foods. Something interesting about this subject that others may not know: If you change to a human-grade organic food such as Wellness, Nature's Variety, or Innova, to name a few, I guarantee that you will see a difference is your pets health. http://www.omhpet.com/wellness/cat_index.html http://www.naturesvariety.com/ http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/default.aspx The so called big name premium pet foods such as Iams, Eukanuba, and Science Diet are anything but premium. They contain potentially harmful ingredients and waste products. They are highly recommended by many veterinarians because the profit margin on them is huge. Most people never think to question the brands that they constantly see advertised and marketed to them. " http://www.allexperts.com/ep/3490-83830/Cat-Food/KC.htm Sorry if this seems like a bit of a rant. I know first hand just what good/excellent nutrition will do for your beloved pets and I seriously cannot stand people advocating sub-standard food. If you wouldn't eat it, don't feed it to your pets! Do your research on what is REALLY in most commercial pet foods wet or dry. It will really open your eyes and make you think. Debbie |
#32
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Behavioural problems...
On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix wrote:
A great deal of well-meant stuff. Debbie: I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may". Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose- intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small fraction of that 10%. Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters. As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins). So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products' to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some. Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts so as to avoid moisture absorbtion. You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared- for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner. We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity, entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the much bigger picture. No wonder some cats get so neurotic. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#33
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Behavioural problems...
DWMeowMix wrote:
On Feb 5, 5:28 am, " wrote: On Feb 4, 11:39 pm, joe wrote: This makes as much sense as your argument against dry food. Oops! Somebody run and tell the people that wrote the Merck Manuel for Veteriarians that cats are NOT true carnivores!!!! "The Merck Veterinary Manual (MVM) has served veterinarians and other animal health professionals as a concise and reliable animal health reference for over 50 years. The first MVM was published in 1955 and introduced at the annual meeting of the American Veterinary Medical Association in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Since its introduction, the MVM has been eagerly adopted by the veterinary profession as a practical and comprehensive resource worldwide." http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../mvm_about.htm This issue is specifically addressed in the FIRST paragraph of the FIRST PAGE of the introduction for nutrition in small animals: "By comparison, cats show no omnivorous feeding behaviors and require nutrients that are produced exclusively by other animals and not plants (eg, vitamin A, arachidonic acid, and taurine). Thus, dogs are described as omnivores, while cats are regarded as true carnivores." http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...n%2cfor%2ccats As well as the issue of feeding carbohydrates to cats: " In cats, carbohydrates apparently are not essential in the diet when ample protein and fats supply glucogenic amino acids and glycerol." http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/182902.htm Protein: "The cat has a higher protein requirement than most species, and healthy adult cats need ~4 g of protein of high biologic value per kg body wt/day. The biologic value of a protein is related to the number and types of essential amino acids it contains and to its digestibility and metabolizability. The higher the biologic value of a protein, the less protein needed in the diet to supply the essential amino acid requirements." http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/182902.htm "Digestibility is less for protein ingredients of poor biologic value..." (like grains!) http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/182902.htm I think that's a pretty effective argument against dry food. Debbie "One could not be a successful scientist without realizing that, a goodly number of scientists are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid." - James D. Watson I made no statement suggesting that cats were not carnivores. I suggested that they were predators. The two are not mutually exclusive you know. Predators often are carnivores. The argument I presented was in not in support of high-carbohydrate dry food. The argument I presented was in favor treating your cats the way nature intended by taking the trouble to give them live feeding using prey animals. I do not think that prey animals for cats are generally composed of large amounts of carbohydrates. |
#34
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Behavioural problems...
On Feb 6, 12:54*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix wrote: A great deal of well-meant stuff. Debbie: I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may". Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose- intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small fraction of that 10%. Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters. As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins). So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products' to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some. Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts so as to avoid moisture absorbtion. You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared- for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner. We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity, entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the much bigger picture. No wonder some cats get so neurotic. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA Agenda less? You obviously can't read very well and all this sage wisedom coming from some one with (still) no cites or references to back up their uninformed insinuations. Your doing a whole lot of back pedaling to what you said in previous threads. Can't make up your mind? Stick to real estate and cycling and cars and radios...shall I go on...that only you seem to think that you are an expert in. It sure isn't cats! Google makes very interesting reading you know. I'd think about making my own "adjustments" to my neurosis if I were you. You seem to need to be an expert in everything. Probably don't even own a cat. I'm done with you. Idiot. Debbie |
#35
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Behavioural problems...
On Feb 6, 7:27*pm, DWMeowMix wrote:
On Feb 6, 12:54*pm, " wrote: On Feb 6, 11:17*am, DWMeowMix wrote: A great deal of well-meant stuff. Debbie: I am not slamming your intent. However, nearly all of your agenda-less references such as the Merck Manual use words such as "can" and "may". Not "will" and "must". Delving a bit further, if 10% of all cats develop some level of food allergy, and if lactose-intolerance is included, then all other food allergies will be a very small fraction of that 10%. For the sake of your argument, let's assume that lactose- intolerance is not included. So, now all grains will be a small fraction of that 10%. Delving further, it appears from what is actually written in many of your agenda-less references is that grains are poorly digested and poorly utilized by a cat's metabolism. No surprise at all there given their design and the fact that they do not chew cuds, have gizzards or other adaptations typical of grain & grass eaters. As to 'waste products' in animal food (let's not confine that practice to just cats). The typical American-style western culture does not see the eating of eyeballs, lights, kidneys, hearts, brains, bones, marrow and guts as particularly attractive. However all such items are prized in other cultures. And none of them are particularly unhealthy if handled and prepared properly. Further to that, cats in their natural state eat all of the above with their prey in addition to skin, bones and hair (or pinfeathers - few pinion feathers) (or scales and fins). So, you really need to define your terms when you refer to 'waste products'. And cats in the natural state need those 'waste products' to help them clear themselves of irritants and parasites. Given, of course that such cats do not have access to de-worming treatments or hairball remedies. Some things are better for cats who choose to live with people in what is for them a tiny box. Not many, but some. Now, let's look at a good-quality, well-designed Wet Food, vs. the same Dry Food. It is very likely that the ingredient list is nearly identical except for water content. That a food is dry does not make it necessarily 100% corn gluten meal. Oh, the dry food will tend to be somewhat higher in tocopherols (Vitamin E precursors) and ascorbic acid as they form a useful preservative. And somewhat lower in salts so as to avoid moisture absorbtion. You do have the bit firmly in your teeth and much as I could cite any number of "authorities-with-agenda" that support my position, you can do so with yours, and you are pulling like a champion. But the brute fact of the matter is that the very, very, vast majority of well-cared- for cats fed a good diet of good quality commercial cat foods do just fine for a complete, uncomplicated, healthy, happy increasingly long life. And, for the record, those are the cats who typically do not complain to this group - conspicuous by their absence as it were. What gets attention here are cats that display a variety of what is perceived to be pathology, either in health or behavior or owner. Not the much more typical healthy animal with a well-adjusted owner. We are inviting top-of-the-food-chain predators into our homes. We should hope that they remain by choice and not by necessity, entrapment or force. And we must recognize all aspects of their nature, not merely those that are convenient for us. What we take away by neutering them and feeding them carrion we must replace in some other, equally satisfying, equally stimulating way. It isn't easy. And very often, we displace our guilt in limiting these powerful and graceful creatures by all sorts of mythology and misplaced efforts towards idealizing some tiny aspect of their care so as to avoid the much bigger picture. No wonder some cats get so neurotic. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA Agenda less? *You obviously can't read very well and all this sage wisedom coming from some one with (still) no cites or references to back up their uninformed insinuations. *Your doing a whole lot of back pedaling to what you said in previous threads. *Can't make up your mind? *Stick to real estate and cycling and cars and radios...shall I go on...that only you seem to think that you are an expert in. *It sure isn't cats! *Google makes very interesting reading you know. *I'd think about making my own "adjustments" to my neurosis if I were you. You seem to need to be an expert in everything. *Probably don't even own a cat. *I'm done with you. *Idiot. Debbie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - As you say. But you do have an axe to grind, clearly. And it surely distorts your efforts. No backpedaling as you do seem to believe your spew - the mark of an honest if completely deluded individual. At least I am recognizing that you try. Boswell and Howie would entirely agree that I do not own any cats. They are honored guests, with me by choice. And they have followed me more than half-way around the world. Are you able to claim the same? Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#36
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Behavioural problems...
DWMeowMix wrote:
I think that's a pretty effective argument against dry food. No, it's not. It discusses some reasons why we might expect cats on primarily wet diets to live longer and healthier lives than cats on primarily dry diets. But since cats on primarily wet diets *don't* live longer and healthier lives than cats on primarily dry diets -- it's just empty verbiage. -- Wayne M. |
#37
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Behavioural problems...
DWMeowMix wrote:
Wayne Mitchell wrote: It's politically correct these days to scapegoat grains. *But only a small percentage of cats -- probably less than 5% -- develop food allergies of *any* kind. *And when they do, the offending food is almost always a protein source -- with fish being the most common, followed by beef, chicken, dairy, and non-fish seafoods. *Allergies to all the grains combined do not equal any one of those five. *So the chances of a cat developing an allergy to grains are pretty minuscule. And where are your references and cites for making such a sweeping statement? I don't have cites to hand, because this is all stuff I've gleaned over the years, not recent research. I don't have time to do a lot of searching on the web right now so I'll just find a couple: For the prevalence of food allergies in cats, combine this one: http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/medical-info.html "15% of all cats in the U.S. suffer from one or more allergies." with this one: http://www.petshealth.com/dr_library/fooddogs.html "Food allergies account for only about 5 to 10 percent of all allergic reactions in dogs and cats." and you get 1.5%. I think that is probably low, but I'm fairly confident of the "less than 5%" figure. For the chief culprits in feline food allergies: http://www.petplace.com/cats/food-al...ats/page1.aspx "Food ingredients most commonly responsible for allergies are beef, chicken, fish, eggs and milk." For the grains combined being less than any one of the top five, I can't find anything quickly. -- Wayne M. |
#38
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Behavioural problems...
Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:19:58 -0600 from joe :
Predators often are carnivores. One might go so far as to say "usually". :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... |
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