If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
Well, I just got the bad news from the vet. Alex, who is 16 years old, is
just beginning CRF. The vet told me in addition to switching his food to NK, I should begin weekly subcu fluids. She stated that by so doing, since he is still in the very early stages of the disease process, it is actually possible to reverse the situation and return him to relatively normal kidney function. Has anyone ever heard of this before (that beginning subcu right at the beginning of CRF can reverse the process?). I did successfully cure him of diabetes with Lantus insulin, and I never would have thought that would be possible. Now that he'll be eating NK, we are going to have to keep a very close watch on his blood glucose to ensure the diabetes doesn't return. The doctor recommended that we repeat bloodwork to reassess kidney function in about three months. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Best regards, ---Cindy S. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
On 19 Mar, 17:31, "cindys" wrote:
Well, I just got the bad news from the vet. Alex, who is 16 years old, is just beginning CRF. The vet told me in addition to switching his food to NK, I should begin weekly subcu fluids. She stated that by so doing, since he is still in the very early stages of the disease process, it is actually possible to reverse the situation and return him to relatively normal kidney function. Has anyone ever heard of this before (that beginning subcu right at the beginning of CRF can reverse the process?). I did successfully cure him of diabetes with Lantus insulin, and I never would have thought that would be possible. Now that he'll be eating NK, we are going to have to keep a very close watch on his blood glucose to ensure the diabetes doesn't return. The doctor recommended that we repeat bloodwork to reassess kidney function in about three months. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Best regards, ---Cindy S. http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/felinekidney.htm http://www.catsofaustralia.com/urinestainremoval.htm http://www.felinecrf.org/related_diseases.htm Hi Cindy, I am so so sorry to hear your news about your baby. I have added a link to site that tells me that you can reverse it. I hope that it is of some use to you & gives you some of the information that you are looking for too. We had old Jasper who had CRF , but his condition had gone too far for treatment to reverse it. I think that there are others here who would be better qualified to advise you than me. Keep us up to date though, won't you? I am glad that you have nipped it in the bud, & will continue to think of you whilst you are going through this hard time Best Wishes, & devoted Purrs of a soothing nature from them all & us too of course!! S;o) |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
Hi Cindy, I am so so sorry to hear your news about your baby. I have added a link to site that tells me that you can reverse it. I hope that it is of some use to you & gives you some of the information that you are looking for too. We had old Jasper who had CRF , but his condition had gone too far for treatment to reverse it. I think that there are others here who would be better qualified to advise you than me. Keep us up to date though, won't you? I am glad that you have nipped it in the bud, & will continue to think of you whilst you are going through this hard time Best Wishes, & devoted Purrs of a soothing nature from them all & us too of course!! S;o) Sorry Cindy, I posted the wrong page to one of the links. It should have been http://www.catsofaustralia.com/cat-kidney-disease.htm http://www.felinecrf.org/related_diseases.htm http://www.petshealth.com/dr_library/felrenfail.html Aplogies, S;o) |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"cindys" wrote in message ... Well, I just got the bad news from the vet. Alex, who is 16 years old, is just beginning CRF. The vet told me in addition to switching his food to NK, I should begin weekly subcu fluids. She stated that by so doing, since he is still in the very early stages of the disease process, it is actually possible to reverse the situation and return him to relatively normal kidney function. Has anyone ever heard of this before (that beginning subcu right at the beginning of CRF can reverse the process?). I'm sorry to hear about your cat- I'm going through the same thing with my 20 year-old. ARF (acute renal failure) is reversible in some cases but CRF is not. By the time CRF shows up in the bloodwork (high BUN/creatinine 60-75% of renal function has already been irreversibly lost. The reason why CRF doesn't show up in the bloodwork as its happening is because the feline kidneys' have a huge nephron reserve, and 'glomerular hyperfiltration'-- the indivudual intact nephrons increase their filtration rate to compensate for the lost and damaged nephrons. I did successfully cure him of diabetes with Lantus insulin, and I never would have thought that would be possible. Now that he'll be eating NK, we are going to have to keep a very close watch on his blood glucose to ensure the diabetes doesn't return. The doctor recommended that we repeat bloodwork to reassess kidney function in about three months. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Best regards, ---Cindy S. Fluid therapy should be administered *only* to correct or prevent dehydration or short-term to augment GFR in a uremic crisis. Premature or unnecessary chronic fluid therapy can *promote* the progression of CRF because it makes the kidney work harder. What is your cat's BUN and creatinine concentrations and urine specific gravity? I think you should seek a second opinion from a veterinary nephrologist or a vet who is experienced in treating feline CRF. You might want to start thinking about giving your cat a potassium and omega-3 supplement. Both will delay the downward spiral of CRF. Best of luck, Phil |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"Phil P." wrote in message news:%fHLh.13310$O_5.7022@trnddc03... "cindys" wrote in message ... Well, I just got the bad news from the vet. Alex, who is 16 years old, is just beginning CRF. The vet told me in addition to switching his food to NK, I should begin weekly subcu fluids. She stated that by so doing, since he is still in the very early stages of the disease process, it is actually possible to reverse the situation and return him to relatively normal kidney function. Has anyone ever heard of this before (that beginning subcu right at the beginning of CRF can reverse the process?). I'm sorry to hear about your cat- I'm going through the same thing with my 20 year-old. ARF (acute renal failure) is reversible in some cases but CRF is not. By the time CRF shows up in the bloodwork (high BUN/creatinine 60-75% of renal function has already been irreversibly lost. The reason why CRF doesn't show up in the bloodwork as its happening is because the feline kidneys' have a huge nephron reserve, and 'glomerular hyperfiltration'-- the indivudual intact nephrons increase their filtration rate to compensate for the lost and damaged nephrons. I did successfully cure him of diabetes with Lantus insulin, and I never would have thought that would be possible. Now that he'll be eating NK, we are going to have to keep a very close watch on his blood glucose to ensure the diabetes doesn't return. The doctor recommended that we repeat bloodwork to reassess kidney function in about three months. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Best regards, ---Cindy S. Fluid therapy should be administered *only* to correct or prevent dehydration or short-term to augment GFR in a uremic crisis. Premature or unnecessary chronic fluid therapy can *promote* the progression of CRF because it makes the kidney work harder. What is your cat's BUN and creatinine concentrations and urine specific gravity? I think you should seek a second opinion from a veterinary nephrologist or a vet who is experienced in treating feline CRF. You might want to start thinking about giving your cat a potassium and omega-3 supplement. Both will delay the downward spiral of CRF. ------------------ Thank you. I don't remember what the vet said the BUN and creatinine were, but it would be easy enough to find out. She wants to put the cat on a prescription low protein kidney diet. On one of the websites for which Sheelagh provided a link, I read that this would actually be a bad idea because there is no evidence that low protein diets delay progression and in the meantime, the cat's body is not getting sufficient protein. Would you agree or disagee with that? BTW, I have a feeling my other approximately 15-year-old cat may be headed down the same path. His BUN and creatinine are high normal. Do you have any thoughts on anything I can be doing to prevent the development of CRF in him? (The other problem is that I have several younger, presumably healthy cats, and all my cats eat the same dry food. I also give them canned food, so I could continue to give the young healthy cats the high protein canned food, but one of my younger cats refuses the canned food and is only willing to eat the dry. She does not need to be on a low protein diet, which would be the net result if I switched over to the NK prescription food.) Thanks in advance. Best regards, ---Cindy S. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"cindys" wrote in message ... "Phil P." wrote in message news:%fHLh.13310$O_5.7022@trnddc03... "cindys" wrote in message ... Well, I just got the bad news from the vet. Alex, who is 16 years old, is just beginning CRF. The vet told me in addition to switching his food to NK, I should begin weekly subcu fluids. She stated that by so doing, since he is still in the very early stages of the disease process, it is actually possible to reverse the situation and return him to relatively normal kidney function. Has anyone ever heard of this before (that beginning subcu right at the beginning of CRF can reverse the process?). I'm sorry to hear about your cat- I'm going through the same thing with my 20 year-old. ARF (acute renal failure) is reversible in some cases but CRF is not. By the time CRF shows up in the bloodwork (high BUN/creatinine 60-75% of renal function has already been irreversibly lost. The reason why CRF doesn't show up in the bloodwork as its happening is because the feline kidneys' have a huge nephron reserve, and 'glomerular hyperfiltration'-- the indivudual intact nephrons increase their filtration rate to compensate for the lost and damaged nephrons. I did successfully cure him of diabetes with Lantus insulin, and I never would have thought that would be possible. Now that he'll be eating NK, we are going to have to keep a very close watch on his blood glucose to ensure the diabetes doesn't return. The doctor recommended that we repeat bloodwork to reassess kidney function in about three months. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Best regards, ---Cindy S. Fluid therapy should be administered *only* to correct or prevent dehydration or short-term to augment GFR in a uremic crisis. Premature or unnecessary chronic fluid therapy can *promote* the progression of CRF because it makes the kidney work harder. What is your cat's BUN and creatinine concentrations and urine specific gravity? I think you should seek a second opinion from a veterinary nephrologist or a vet who is experienced in treating feline CRF. You might want to start thinking about giving your cat a potassium and omega-3 supplement. Both will delay the downward spiral of CRF. ------------------ Thank you. I don't remember what the vet said the BUN and creatinine were, but it would be easy enough to find out. She wants to put the cat on a prescription low protein kidney diet. On one of the websites for which Sheelagh provided a link, I read that this would actually be a bad idea because there is no evidence that low protein diets delay progression and in the meantime, the cat's body is not getting sufficient protein. Would you agree or disagee with that? BTW, I have a feeling my other approximately 15-year-old cat may be headed down the same path. His BUN and creatinine are high normal. Do you have any thoughts on anything I can be doing to prevent the development of CRF in him? (The other problem is that I have several younger, presumably healthy cats, and all my cats eat the same dry food. I also give them canned food, so I could continue to give the young healthy cats the high protein canned food, but one of my younger cats refuses the canned food and is only willing to eat the dry. She does not need to be on a low protein diet, which would be the net result if I switched over to the NK prescription food.) Thanks in advance. Best regards, ---Cindy S. Cindy, I'm not an expert on this but I've read that finding a food low in phosphorus is more important than a low protein diet. The bad part is that higher protein foods are frequently high in phosphorus. The biggest problem with the low protein, kidney diets is that they're not always that palatable. You may want to play around with different kidney foods. My CRF kitty was finally put on fluids last summer when she became dehydrated after several years of high normal BUN and creatinine. I'm currently giving her 100ml fluids every other day subQ. Molly's BUN and creatinine levels are actually slightly better than they were in August. I'm giving her omega-3 and potassium supplements. Molly has her good days and her bad days. I cherish the good days--they still outweigh by far the bad days. I wish you the best. Bonnie |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"cindys" wrote in message ... She wants to put the cat on a prescription low protein kidney diet. On one of the websites for which Sheelagh provided a link, I read that this would actually be a bad idea because there is no evidence that low protein diets delay progression and in the meantime, the cat's body is not getting sufficient protein. Would you agree or disagee with that? Protein shouldn't be restricted in cats until the BUN reaches 65-85 mg/dl, and only to ameliorate clinical signs of uremia. The theory of restricting protein to slow the progression of CRF was based on old studies in *rats*. Later studies showed that mechanisms that can alter the progression of CRF in the rat don't have the same effect in cats. In fact, protein restriction can have deleterious effects in cats- e.g., impaired immunological response and resistance to infection, reduced hemoglobin production and anemia, decreased plasma protein levels, and muscle wasting. I've been feeding my 20-yearl old x/d- its almost identical to k/d- its an alkaline diet with higher protein and a little more phosphorus. What you want to avoid are acidified diets. BTW, I have a feeling my other approximately 15-year-old cat may be headed down the same path. His BUN and creatinine are high normal. Do you have any thoughts on anything I can be doing to prevent the development of CRF in him? Omega-3 fatty acids derived from menhadan fish- not flaxseed or any plant-derived omega-3. Plant-derived omega-3s contain too much omega-6- which are proinflammatory and contribute to the progression of CRF. Omega-3 fatty acids derived from fish down-regulate intrarenal inflammatory responses and are thus renoprotective. A potassium supplement would be beneficial also. You want to keep his K+ levels in the upper half of the normal range. (The other problem is that I have several younger, presumably healthy cats, and all my cats eat the same dry food. I also give them canned food, so I could continue to give the young healthy cats the high protein canned food, but one of my younger cats refuses the canned food and is only willing to eat the dry. She does not need to be on a low protein diet, which would be the net result if I switched over to the NK prescription food.) Thanks in advance. Best regards, ---Cindy S. As I said, I don't think you should feed a restricted protein diet yet. Just don't let the normal cats eat x/d because it could predispose them to struvite. Best of luck, Phil |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"22brix" wrote in message ... snip Cindy, I'm not an expert on this but I've read that finding a food low in phosphorus is more important than a low protein diet. Several websites that I've read have said the same. The bad part is that higher protein foods are frequently high in phosphorus. The biggest problem with the low protein, kidney diets is that they're not always that palatable. You may want to play around with different kidney foods. And right now, Alex is not eating an awful lot, and he has lost over a pound since last May. This is the pattern I went through with Molly during the last two years of her life. I've been feeding my cats Fancy Feast in the morning. What happens is that Alex eats a little and then Bullwinkle ends up polishing off the rest of Alex's portion (and Daisy's portion and Tux's portion as well) in addition to his own. Despite his voracious appetite, Bullwinkle has also lost weight. He was recently tested for thyroid problems and that came back negative. All of my cats have been on OM prescription food since Alex's diabetes diagnosis last spring. At any rate, Alex has not seemed overly enthusiastic about eating. He's not starving himself, but he's picking and eating small amounts. I'll give the kidney diet a try, but I can pretty much guarantee already that he is not going to go for it. For the last year of her life, Molly existed exclusively on human tuna. It was the only thing she would eat other than deli meats or my home cooking (beef or chicken). I supplemented her with feline vitamins. My CRF kitty was finally put on fluids last summer when she became dehydrated after several years of high normal BUN and creatinine. I'm currently giving her 100ml fluids every other day subQ. Molly's BUN and creatinine levels are actually slightly better than they were in August. So your kitty has actually shown improvement! That's great! My Molly never really went on subcu fluids. At the end, she did receive subcu fluids a few times at the vet. I was going to initiate them at home, but she was already close to the end of her life at that point and she was suffering, so I opted to euthanize. Now, I feel sort of confused. Phil (whose opinion I respect a great deal) is advising against the subcu fluids at this point because of additional stress on the cat's kidneys. A website I just read is saying the same thing as my vet (that the subcu fluids should be initiated early and will prolong the cat's life). Your cat has been on them for seven months and has shown improvement. And then, there's Bullwinkle whose lab values are still within normal limits but high. Is there any way to diagnose impending kidney disease before the BUN and creatinine are elevated (in an effort to prevent it)? I am so confused and so upset. I intend to speak to my vet tomorrow and follow Phil's advice to seek a second opinion from a specialist. There is no veterinary nephrologist in my area, but there is a veterinary specialist who completed a nephrology residency (currently specializing in some other organ system). I'm giving her omega-3 and potassium supplements. Molly has her good days and her bad days. I will absolutely give these supplements to Alex and Bullwinkle. I also gave Alex 5 mg of Pepcid today. He has thrown up some clear liquid several times (I know from experience this is due to nausea from kidney disease). His nausea may also explain why he is less interested in food. It seemed like he perked up a little bit after the Pepcid (I hope it wasn't wishful thinking on my part), but I'll give it to him again tomorrow before breakfast and see if his appetite improves. I will also begin offering him canned food multiple times during the day. I cherish the good days--they still outweigh by far the bad days. I wish you the best. Thank you so much. Best regards, ---Cindy S. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"Phil P." wrote in message news:VRILh.13331$O_5.1375@trnddc03... "cindys" wrote in message ... She wants to put the cat on a prescription low protein kidney diet. On one of the websites for which Sheelagh provided a link, I read that this would actually be a bad idea because there is no evidence that low protein diets delay progression and in the meantime, the cat's body is not getting sufficient protein. Would you agree or disagee with that? Protein shouldn't be restricted in cats until the BUN reaches 65-85 mg/dl, and only to ameliorate clinical signs of uremia. The theory of restricting protein to slow the progression of CRF was based on old studies in *rats*. Later studies showed that mechanisms that can alter the progression of CRF in the rat don't have the same effect in cats. In fact, protein restriction can have deleterious effects in cats- e.g., impaired immunological response and resistance to infection, reduced hemoglobin production and anemia, decreased plasma protein levels, and muscle wasting. I've been feeding my 20-yearl old x/d- its almost identical to k/d- its an alkaline diet with higher protein and a little more phosphorus. What you want to avoid are acidified diets. Now, I'm confused. Isn't the idea to lower phosphorous while keeping protein the same? Won't an alkaline diet predispose him to crystal formation? Isn't K/D a low protein diet? How does K/D differ from this NF that my vet wants me to feed the cat? (I don't remember for sure what the lab values were, but I'm pretty sure the BUN was lower than 65 mg/dl). BTW, I have a feeling my other approximately 15-year-old cat may be headed down the same path. His BUN and creatinine are high normal. Do you have any thoughts on anything I can be doing to prevent the development of CRF in him? Omega-3 fatty acids derived from menhadan fish- not flaxseed or any plant-derived omega-3. Plant-derived omega-3s contain too much omega-6- which are proinflammatory and contribute to the progression of CRF. Omega-3 fatty acids derived from fish down-regulate intrarenal inflammatory responses and are thus renoprotective. A potassium supplement would be beneficial also. You want to keep his K+ levels in the upper half of the normal range. Thank you. Omega-3 fatty acids from fish and potassium. I can make that happen tomorrow. (The other problem is that I have several younger, presumably healthy cats, and all my cats eat the same dry food. I also give them canned food, so I could continue to give the young healthy cats the high protein canned food, but one of my younger cats refuses the canned food and is only willing to eat the dry. She does not need to be on a low protein diet, which would be the net result if I switched over to the NK prescription food.) Thanks in advance. Best regards, ---Cindy S. As I said, I don't think you should feed a restricted protein diet yet. Okay. Just don't let the normal cats eat x/d because it could predispose them to struvite. Are cats with CRF less inclined to get struvite or is it simply a question of the need for a more renoprotective alkaline diet needs to take priority (and we cross our fingers that the cat doesn't develop struvite)? Thank you again for all your advice. Best regards, ---Cindy S. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
CRF in Alex
"cindys" wrote in message ... "22brix" wrote in message ... snip Cindy, I'm not an expert on this but I've read that finding a food low in phosphorus is more important than a low protein diet. Several websites that I've read have said the same. The bad part is that higher protein foods are frequently high in phosphorus. The biggest problem with the low protein, kidney diets is that they're not always that palatable. You may want to play around with different kidney foods. And right now, Alex is not eating an awful lot, and he has lost over a pound since last May. This is the pattern I went through with Molly during the last two years of her life. I've been feeding my cats Fancy Feast in the morning. What happens is that Alex eats a little and then Bullwinkle ends up polishing off the rest of Alex's portion (and Daisy's portion and Tux's portion as well) in addition to his own. Despite his voracious appetite, Bullwinkle has also lost weight. He was recently tested for thyroid problems and that came back negative. All of my cats have been on OM prescription food since Alex's diabetes diagnosis last spring. At any rate, Alex has not seemed overly enthusiastic about eating. He's not starving himself, but he's picking and eating small amounts. I'll give the kidney diet a try, but I can pretty much guarantee already that he is not going to go for it. For the last year of her life, Molly existed exclusively on human tuna. It was the only thing she would eat other than deli meats or my home cooking (beef or chicken). I supplemented her with feline vitamins. My CRF kitty was finally put on fluids last summer when she became dehydrated after several years of high normal BUN and creatinine. I'm currently giving her 100ml fluids every other day subQ. Molly's BUN and creatinine levels are actually slightly better than they were in August. So your kitty has actually shown improvement! That's great! My Molly never really went on subcu fluids. At the end, she did receive subcu fluids a few times at the vet. I was going to initiate them at home, but she was already close to the end of her life at that point and she was suffering, so I opted to euthanize. Now, I feel sort of confused. Phil (whose opinion I respect a great deal) is advising against the subcu fluids at this point because of additional stress on the cat's kidneys. A website I just read is saying the same thing as my vet (that the subcu fluids should be initiated early and will prolong the cat's life). Your cat has been on them for seven months and has shown improvement. And then, there's Bullwinkle whose lab values are still within normal limits but high. Is there any way to diagnose impending kidney disease before the BUN and creatinine are elevated (in an effort to prevent it)? I am so confused and so upset. I intend to speak to my vet tomorrow and follow Phil's advice to seek a second opinion from a specialist. There is no veterinary nephrologist in my area, but there is a veterinary specialist who completed a nephrology residency (currently specializing in some other organ system). I'm giving her omega-3 and potassium supplements. Molly has her good days and her bad days. I will absolutely give these supplements to Alex and Bullwinkle. I also gave Alex 5 mg of Pepcid today. He has thrown up some clear liquid several times (I know from experience this is due to nausea from kidney disease). His nausea may also explain why he is less interested in food. It seemed like he perked up a little bit after the Pepcid (I hope it wasn't wishful thinking on my part), but I'll give it to him again tomorrow before breakfast and see if his appetite improves. I will also begin offering him canned food multiple times during the day. I cherish the good days--they still outweigh by far the bad days. I wish you the best. Thank you so much. Best regards, ---Cindy S. According to my vet, cats will do better long term on the kidney diets but if they don't eat it, it won't help them! What I have been doing with Molly is mixing her diet food with a really stinky cat tuna food. It's the one thing she really likes. I wish she'd eat the kidney food alone but. . .I'm opting for calories. I'm not sure Molly has improved over all--her lab values are a little better but we've had some crises along the way. She was diagnosed with high blood pressure in February. As soon as we got that under control she had a raging urinary tract infection. She's now been off antibiotics for a couple of weeks and seems to be feeling pretty good. One endearing thing about her is her purr--it's the loudest purr I've heard on a cat. I can hear her in the next room when she's really going. She's been doing that a lot the past couple of weeks and she only does that when she's feeling pretty good. As far as the fluids my vet didn't put her on fluids initially; her kidney values were borderline for several years--it wasn't until she got dehydrated and was feeling punky that we started the fluids. As my vet explained it to me, a high BUN makes the cat feel nauseated. The additional fluids dilute the BUN and should help some with appetite. I know that once Molly was on fluids, she perked up quite a bit. I, too, really respect Phil's knowledge. He has a lot of good information regarding CRF. Getting a second opinion is a very good idea. There are a couple of crf support sites as well, a lot of information and people who are going through the same thing. Good luck with Alex and Bullwinkle, both. I love older cats but they bring their own issues! Bonnie |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Vacation, Hurrican Alex and a beach cat | polonca12000 | Cat anecdotes | 5 | August 13th 04 12:21 AM |