Crane, Gaubster, PhilP

From: "Cheryl"

GAUBSTER2 composed with style:

They ramble on about calcium, phosphorus,
nutrients in the food, all of which can be sourced from garbage,
and
then we are told we should be more concerned about kidney disease
etc.

Well, shouldn't we be? Kidney disease is a MAJOR problem in cats,
and yet you act as if you can't be bothered w/ it?

It seems to me that those low phosphorus levels aren't coming from
foods with meat as the main protein source.

I recently read a study that said kidney disease in cats may actually be
related to vaccines. Of course more studies are needed, but it sure makes you
think what it is that really causes CRF:

PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)
are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,
to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10µg of
CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein plus an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or
one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six
were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed
to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats.

Lauren

________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

"KellyH" wrote in message news:7UN4b.325042$Ho3.47689@sccrnsc03...
Just curious, as I missed a lot of this thread, Ann, are you against the
whole, natural pet foods, such as California Natural and Wellness? Both
state they use human-grade ingredients. I just started feeding my cats the
Wellness canned cat food, and I have to say, it smells much better than most
commercial cat food, and I have noticed the litterbox is less stinky.
What about the prescription pet foods? What is a pet owner supposed to do
if their cat or dog requires a prescription food?

Kelly, I think there are some foods, the ones you mentioned, that do
contain quality ingredients and I have often told people that if they
don't have time to cook for their pets that these would be good
choices. With regard to the prescription diets, one of my cats was on
one for five years and it did not help at all. On a homemade diet,
which he has been on for fourteen years, the problem was resolved.
There is an excellent book written by a very knowledgeable
veterinarian, Donald Strombeck, "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets,"
which deals with special diets for many health problems that dogs and
cats experience.

Ann


--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
Check out www.snittens.com

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
olitter (PawsForThought) wrote in message
...
From: pam (Mary)



http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and
wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully
labeled."

That's about it.

Yeah, that's about it. But I see nothing about pet food be regulated at
all.

You're right, no one regulates the ingredients in these foods.
Contact the FDA/CVM and ask them outright if they, or any agencey,
inspects or tests the raw materials used in commercial pet foods.

One person in this news group stated that the USDA/FSIS regulated pet
food. In an e-mail I received from this department they made it very
clear ""NO" FSIS does not inspects or oversees any ingredients used in
commercial pet food."

I believe this same person stated that it was illegal to use
euthanized dogs and cats in commercial pet foods. Again I quoted from
a letter I received from Christine Richmond of the FDA/CVM who wrote
"CVM has not acted to specifically prohibit the rendering of pets.
However, that is not to say that the practice of using this material
in pet food is condoned by the CVM." First of all, it is not illegal.
Second, the FDA/CVM is aware that this is happening but will take no
step to prohibit this practice. I also have letters from a number of
people associated with the AAFCO, various states across the U.S.. I
asked all of them if any testing is undertaken on any of the raw
materials used in commercial pet foods. The reply from all was "NO."
I have asked the people who over and over again tell us this industry
is regulated to provide some proof of this and not one of them has
been able to do this. They ramble on about calcium, phosphorus,
nutrients in the food, all of which can be sourced from garbage, and
then we are told we should be more concerned about kidney disease etc.
in pets then basically what we are feeding them. Why on earth do they
think the pets are suffering from so many ills. Could it be from the
garbage we are feeding them?

Sorry that this has been a rather lengthy reply to your statement,
Lauren but I think people should find out for themselves how regulated
this industry actually is.

Ann








Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

"KellyH" wrote in message news:7UN4b.325042$Ho3.47689@sccrnsc03...
Just curious, as I missed a lot of this thread, Ann, are you against the
whole, natural pet foods, such as California Natural and Wellness? Both
state they use human-grade ingredients. I just started feeding my cats the
Wellness canned cat food, and I have to say, it smells much better than most
commercial cat food, and I have noticed the litterbox is less stinky.
What about the prescription pet foods? What is a pet owner supposed to do
if their cat or dog requires a prescription food?

Kelly, I think there are some foods, the ones you mentioned, that do
contain quality ingredients and I have often told people that if they
don't have time to cook for their pets that these would be good
choices. With regard to the prescription diets, one of my cats was on
one for five years and it did not help at all. On a homemade diet,
which he has been on for fourteen years, the problem was resolved.
There is an excellent book written by a very knowledgeable
veterinarian, Donald Strombeck, "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets,"
which deals with special diets for many health problems that dogs and
cats experience.

Ann


--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
Check out www.snittens.com

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
olitter (PawsForThought) wrote in message
...
From: pam (Mary)



http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and
wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully
labeled."

That's about it.

Yeah, that's about it. But I see nothing about pet food be regulated at
all.

You're right, no one regulates the ingredients in these foods.
Contact the FDA/CVM and ask them outright if they, or any agencey,
inspects or tests the raw materials used in commercial pet foods.

One person in this news group stated that the USDA/FSIS regulated pet
food. In an e-mail I received from this department they made it very
clear ""NO" FSIS does not inspects or oversees any ingredients used in
commercial pet food."

I believe this same person stated that it was illegal to use
euthanized dogs and cats in commercial pet foods. Again I quoted from
a letter I received from Christine Richmond of the FDA/CVM who wrote
"CVM has not acted to specifically prohibit the rendering of pets.
However, that is not to say that the practice of using this material
in pet food is condoned by the CVM." First of all, it is not illegal.
Second, the FDA/CVM is aware that this is happening but will take no
step to prohibit this practice. I also have letters from a number of
people associated with the AAFCO, various states across the U.S.. I
asked all of them if any testing is undertaken on any of the raw
materials used in commercial pet foods. The reply from all was "NO."
I have asked the people who over and over again tell us this industry
is regulated to provide some proof of this and not one of them has
been able to do this. They ramble on about calcium, phosphorus,
nutrients in the food, all of which can be sourced from garbage, and
then we are told we should be more concerned about kidney disease etc.
in pets then basically what we are feeding them. Why on earth do they
think the pets are suffering from so many ills. Could it be from the
garbage we are feeding them?

Sorry that this has been a rather lengthy reply to your statement,
Lauren but I think people should find out for themselves how regulated
this industry actually is.

Ann








Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

E. Kunze wrote

There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

I'd very much regret that. Though I'm not quite sure yet as to how far
I agree with you, I feel that some provocative voices might be
beneficial to all our pets, even if the only effect would be to
encourage more people responsible for pets to acquire more knowledge.

Eb, I agree, and I have been able to carry on a non-hostile dialogue
with a number of people in the news group. Unfortunately, there are a
few, some who claim to be professional, that chose to take the
position that they are right and with anything a person says which is
against their beliefs, they resort to derogitory remarks and name
calling. Totally childish. They have asked for documentation, I've
provided it. Have they reciprocated when I have asked for their
documentation which would dispute my findings ..... no, and this is
when, to apparently avoid admitting they are wrong, the totally nasty
remarks begin.

As we often find ourselves in the David against Goliath role, rather
than in a fair discussion between benevolent partners, occasional
shouting is certainly well understood, though tough and persuasive
argumentation invariably is more successful :-).

With some, there is no fair discussion and with those people I don't
bother reading their posts and therefore do not respond.

Ann
Eb

E. Kunze wrote

There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

I'd very much regret that. Though I'm not quite sure yet as to how far
I agree with you, I feel that some provocative voices might be
beneficial to all our pets, even if the only effect would be to
encourage more people responsible for pets to acquire more knowledge.

Eb, I agree, and I have been able to carry on a non-hostile dialogue
with a number of people in the news group. Unfortunately, there are a
few, some who claim to be professional, that chose to take the
position that they are right and with anything a person says which is
against their beliefs, they resort to derogitory remarks and name
calling. Totally childish. They have asked for documentation, I've
provided it. Have they reciprocated when I have asked for their
documentation which would dispute my findings ..... no, and this is
when, to apparently avoid admitting they are wrong, the totally nasty
remarks begin.

As we often find ourselves in the David against Goliath role, rather
than in a fair discussion between benevolent partners, occasional
shouting is certainly well understood, though tough and persuasive
argumentation invariably is more successful :-).

With some, there is no fair discussion and with those people I don't
bother reading their posts and therefore do not respond.

Ann
Eb

I don't know about pentobarbital toxiciity but I do know that in the
cats that I've had I think I've had a very bad record and I sure do
want to know why. Allergies, megacolon, IBD... something is wrong
here.

What EXACTLY have you been feeding them all of these years?

I don't know about pentobarbital toxiciity but I do know that in the
cats that I've had I think I've had a very bad record and I sure do
want to know why. Allergies, megacolon, IBD... something is wrong
here.

What EXACTLY have you been feeding them all of these years?

Eb, I agree, and I have been able to carry on a non-hostile dialogue
with a number of people in the news group.

Yes, only those that agree w/ you. The rest that don't agree w/ you are hit w/
your venomous verbiage. Do you have a short temper in "real life?"

Unfortunately, there are a
few, some who claim to be professional, that chose to take the
position that they are right and with anything a person says which is
against their beliefs, they resort to derogitory remarks and name
calling.

LOL! This is fabulous. You JUST described what you've done here!!

Totally childish.

Yep.

They have asked for documentation, I've
provided it.

uh, no you haven't. That's the problem.

Eb, I agree, and I have been able to carry on a non-hostile dialogue
with a number of people in the news group.

Yes, only those that agree w/ you. The rest that don't agree w/ you are hit w/
your venomous verbiage. Do you have a short temper in "real life?"

Unfortunately, there are a
few, some who claim to be professional, that chose to take the
position that they are right and with anything a person says which is
against their beliefs, they resort to derogitory remarks and name
calling.

LOL! This is fabulous. You JUST described what you've done here!!

Totally childish.

Yep.

They have asked for documentation, I've
provided it.

uh, no you haven't. That's the problem.

"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...

There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

That's the only way you can weasel out of answering questions you can't
answer and don't want to answer! LOL! Lauren uses the same routine when I
ask her to back up one of her scare tactics and rumors.... Now I know where
she gets it from... along with most of her other bullsh!t...

You're not as slick as you think you are (although you think everyone else
is stupid), at least you know when you're outmatched...