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#81
September 6th 03, 04:52 AM
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"Liz" wrote in message om... ..because of rumors, innuendo and scare tactics perpertrated by the au naturel cult fanatics. Phil, you sound like an old LP record repeating the same words over and over again... Could be because au naturel cult fanatics keep repeating the same "the sky is falling" .scare tactics and innuendo....... Can´t you find other arguments instead of just calling people au naturel cult fanatics? I only call au naturel cult fanatics au naturel cult fanatics.... Nope, I never attacked ethoxyquin because it is also used as a herbicide and is very toxic. I attacked it because it is a class C substance (possible carcinogenic) Possible carcinogenic??? A lot of substances are possible carcinogenics at excessive doses... Look up selenium in your chemistry set manual... Ethoxyquin has been shown to suppress the carcinogenic potential of several compounds and *inhibit* the formation of hepatocellular carcinoma.... Mis-Leading Martin praises Donald Strombeck's naturel diets book but didn't mention his views on ethoxyquin: .. "Ethoxyquin is safe as well as effective. There is more than three-�*quarters of a century of study of this chemical. Like almost any chemical if a dog or cat receives enough, it can be toxic. Ethoxyquin has a very wide range of safety, however, and the amount added to pet food causes no problems. Its permitted use as a preservative is 0.015 percent, which is a very low concentration. Ethoxyquin, more so than any other antioxidant, has anticancer properties. It interferes with cancer induction by other chemicals through actions not dependent on being an antioxidant. Ethoxyquin can bind carcinogenic chemicals and can bind to enzymes that convert inert chemicals into ones causing cancer." Hills doesn't use ethoxyquin anymore so I have no hidden agenda. I'm using ethoxyquin as an example of a typical au naturel cult scare tactic and innue ndo... ...because of complaints they received as a result the scare tactics and rumors perpertrated by the au naturel cults and "natural "breeders... Oh, so you´re saying they are stupid enough to buy those rumors if those rumors were really just rumors? Brilliant, Liz. Really brilliant...No, Liz, the damage caused by the rumors and scare tactics is what led to the *request* for a reduction... even though not a single case of ethoxyquin-related illness was *ever* reported at the lvels allowed....Its called humoring the paranoid and gullible fanatics.... You only see what you *want* to see. You see what *isn't* there! I've ask you *many* times to produce a *single* case of ethoxyquin-re;ated illness in a cat at the recommended levels... Typical of au naturel fanatical innuendo and scare tactics, you *failed*...and *failed* and *failed* again to produce a *single* case! and because I am *sure* fatty liver disease is caused by these artificial antioxidants Like you're sure you can dissolve calcium oxalate uroliths in cats with.... *WATER* ???? LOL!!!! Maybe your ridiculous notions are why you're not in the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!! LOL!!! pointless remainder snipped 
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#82
September 6th 03, 02:16 PM
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Brilliant, Liz. Really brilliant...No, Liz, the damage caused by the rumors
and scare tactics is what led to the *request* for a reduction... even though not a single case of ethoxyquin-related illness was *ever* reported at the lvels allowed....Its called humoring the paranoid and gullible fanatics.... See what I mean? You only see what you want to see. Did you know, for example, that fatty liver disease is RARE outside the USA? Did you also know that the USA was the only country to use ethoxyquin extensively in dog/cat feeds? For example, feeds manufactured in Brazil use mostly BHT. Effen, which I believe to be the biggest manufacturer of small animal feeds, never used ethoxyquin in its formulas. I believe Purina never used it either. At least I have never seen any feed produced by those two here in Brazil with eq listed among the ingredients, and they do list BHT when they use it (they don´t use BHA here either). Lots of breeders have reported problems that they believed were caused by eq. Ok, if not by eq., then what caused those problems? Corn? Rice? Any other ingredient in the food? You can only state that a problem was never caused by eq if you do a biopsy and determine that eq did not build up in their systems. But it does build up (mostly in liver, fat tissues, and mammary tissues) and it changes the liver chemistry. Now THAT is proven scientifically. I will go a bit further and make another statement: did you know that mammary cancer is the number one cause of death among Brazilian women (I think it´s similar in the USA and almost every other developed country). The percentage of women with mammary cancer has risen dramatically over the last two decades. I´m sure you can guess what I blame it on.... BHT. And mammary tumors are also *extremely* common in dogs and cats - and not only females. Like you're sure you can dissolve calcium oxalate uroliths in cats with.... *WATER* ???? LOL!!!! Maybe your ridiculous notions are why you're not in the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!! LOL!!! No Phil. I just changed sides. I got sick of the Machiavellic money making strategies. Hey, wake up. Do you know how much your life is worth? It´s worth what you have in your pocket. Same holds for your pets. Wake up to the real world Phil.
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#83
September 6th 03, 02:16 PM
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Brilliant, Liz. Really brilliant...No, Liz, the damage caused by the rumors
and scare tactics is what led to the *request* for a reduction... even though not a single case of ethoxyquin-related illness was *ever* reported at the lvels allowed....Its called humoring the paranoid and gullible fanatics.... See what I mean? You only see what you want to see. Did you know, for example, that fatty liver disease is RARE outside the USA? Did you also know that the USA was the only country to use ethoxyquin extensively in dog/cat feeds? For example, feeds manufactured in Brazil use mostly BHT. Effen, which I believe to be the biggest manufacturer of small animal feeds, never used ethoxyquin in its formulas. I believe Purina never used it either. At least I have never seen any feed produced by those two here in Brazil with eq listed among the ingredients, and they do list BHT when they use it (they don´t use BHA here either). Lots of breeders have reported problems that they believed were caused by eq. Ok, if not by eq., then what caused those problems? Corn? Rice? Any other ingredient in the food? You can only state that a problem was never caused by eq if you do a biopsy and determine that eq did not build up in their systems. But it does build up (mostly in liver, fat tissues, and mammary tissues) and it changes the liver chemistry. Now THAT is proven scientifically. I will go a bit further and make another statement: did you know that mammary cancer is the number one cause of death among Brazilian women (I think it´s similar in the USA and almost every other developed country). The percentage of women with mammary cancer has risen dramatically over the last two decades. I´m sure you can guess what I blame it on.... BHT. And mammary tumors are also *extremely* common in dogs and cats - and not only females. Like you're sure you can dissolve calcium oxalate uroliths in cats with.... *WATER* ???? LOL!!!! Maybe your ridiculous notions are why you're not in the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!! LOL!!! No Phil. I just changed sides. I got sick of the Machiavellic money making strategies. Hey, wake up. Do you know how much your life is worth? It´s worth what you have in your pocket. Same holds for your pets. Wake up to the real world Phil.
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#84
September 6th 03, 02:49 PM
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That's not exactly a complete history of the subject. The reason most pet food
companies are avoiding ethoxyquin is because it's been given a bad rap. In fact, did you know that vitamin e itself is preserved (in a lot of instances) w/ ethoyxquin? The same people that freak out over ethoxyquin don't have a problem w/ foods "preserved w/ vitamin e"--when in fact those foods may have just as much ethoxyquin! Ok, lets talk about concentration and half life. Suppose you feed your cat 100g of food containing 75ppm of eq. That´s 75ppm of 100g which gives you 7.5mg of eq daily. Suppose now that you give your cat a daily tablet of vitamin E at 400mg preserved with eq at 75ppm (not needed because vitamin E capsules are protected from oxygen by their gelly shells). That would be 30 micrograms of eq, that is, 250 times less than that same eq in the food. I do not know the half life of eq but suppose most cats can eliminate 5mg/day. They would have eq build up in their systems when fed eq but not when given vitamin E tablets preserved with eq. I did not use a sci calculator for the math so I hope the numbers are right but they shouldn´t be too off. One thing is fact and proven: eq does build up in the liver of animals fed feeds containing eq. Fatty liver disease *only* occurs in chicken fed commercial feeds. Oh, I see. You hate President Bush. It´s not about Bush, it´s about hypocrisy. Any other money-oriented politician (or person) would do the same. Are you against vaccines? They have made our world much safer, yet I suppose you are one to only look at the few negatives. Yes and no. Some vaccines are reasonable. Other vaccines are unreasonable. If there´s a greater chance to get a side effect from a vaccine than to get the disease itself, I´d rather not take the vaccine. If the disease is not life-threatening, I´d not take the vaccine. In my childhood I had nearly all childhood diseases you can name: measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, etc. I was only vaccinated against small pox and polio. I was not vaccinated against rubeola and still haven´t had it. I know the vaccine exists but I´d rather have the disease. I never had a flu and if I had three colds in the last 20 years it was too much. Our immune system learns through exposure. The more you protect yourself, the more fragile you become. I never had an infection either, never took antibiotics. Why did you get out? Got sick of the money-oriented mentality.
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#85
September 6th 03, 02:49 PM
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That's not exactly a complete history of the subject. The reason most pet food
companies are avoiding ethoxyquin is because it's been given a bad rap. In fact, did you know that vitamin e itself is preserved (in a lot of instances) w/ ethoyxquin? The same people that freak out over ethoxyquin don't have a problem w/ foods "preserved w/ vitamin e"--when in fact those foods may have just as much ethoxyquin! Ok, lets talk about concentration and half life. Suppose you feed your cat 100g of food containing 75ppm of eq. That´s 75ppm of 100g which gives you 7.5mg of eq daily. Suppose now that you give your cat a daily tablet of vitamin E at 400mg preserved with eq at 75ppm (not needed because vitamin E capsules are protected from oxygen by their gelly shells). That would be 30 micrograms of eq, that is, 250 times less than that same eq in the food. I do not know the half life of eq but suppose most cats can eliminate 5mg/day. They would have eq build up in their systems when fed eq but not when given vitamin E tablets preserved with eq. I did not use a sci calculator for the math so I hope the numbers are right but they shouldn´t be too off. One thing is fact and proven: eq does build up in the liver of animals fed feeds containing eq. Fatty liver disease *only* occurs in chicken fed commercial feeds. Oh, I see. You hate President Bush. It´s not about Bush, it´s about hypocrisy. Any other money-oriented politician (or person) would do the same. Are you against vaccines? They have made our world much safer, yet I suppose you are one to only look at the few negatives. Yes and no. Some vaccines are reasonable. Other vaccines are unreasonable. If there´s a greater chance to get a side effect from a vaccine than to get the disease itself, I´d rather not take the vaccine. If the disease is not life-threatening, I´d not take the vaccine. In my childhood I had nearly all childhood diseases you can name: measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, etc. I was only vaccinated against small pox and polio. I was not vaccinated against rubeola and still haven´t had it. I know the vaccine exists but I´d rather have the disease. I never had a flu and if I had three colds in the last 20 years it was too much. Our immune system learns through exposure. The more you protect yourself, the more fragile you become. I never had an infection either, never took antibiotics. Why did you get out? Got sick of the money-oriented mentality.
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#86
September 6th 03, 02:55 PM
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Liz, there have been a number of documents, under the FOIA, that
various government agencies have refused to release. Legal action has been taken in a number of cases in order to obtain these records. At the present time I have retained an attorney in order to get any and all documentation related to the pentobarbital and DNA study the FDA/CVM has undertaken. You have to wonder if all is above board what are they hiding. Ann The FDA and any such agency is there to protect the population. Withholding this kind of information from the public should be considered a crime. A long time ago I managed to access their file on eq via ftp and that was a nasty file. Phil should send a letter to the FDA asking for their file on ethoxyquin and I´m sure he´ll change his mind. Some time later I tried to access another file via ftp and they closed the backdoor. So they ARE hiding things that should be available to everyone.
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#87
September 6th 03, 02:55 PM
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Liz, there have been a number of documents, under the FOIA, that
various government agencies have refused to release. Legal action has been taken in a number of cases in order to obtain these records. At the present time I have retained an attorney in order to get any and all documentation related to the pentobarbital and DNA study the FDA/CVM has undertaken. You have to wonder if all is above board what are they hiding. Ann The FDA and any such agency is there to protect the population. Withholding this kind of information from the public should be considered a crime. A long time ago I managed to access their file on eq via ftp and that was a nasty file. Phil should send a letter to the FDA asking for their file on ethoxyquin and I´m sure he´ll change his mind. Some time later I tried to access another file via ftp and they closed the backdoor. So they ARE hiding things that should be available to everyone.
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#88
September 6th 03, 03:09 PM
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Is that why the FDA is constantly refusing to approve drugs and why they
pull drugs off the market? Because these drugs are getting in the way of the patented drugs. Tryptophan, a naturally occuring amino acid, is as effective against depression as prozac or any other anti-depressant drug. Tryptophan is the precursor of serotonin. When serotonin levels in your brain are low, you become depressive. Tryptophan has no side effects whatsoever but cannot be patented because it´s a naturally occuring substance. Prozac and other antidepressants have numerous side effects but are patented so a lot of money can be made selling them. Tryptophan was taken out of the market because people were getting sick. There was an investigation to see what was making people sick and they found that the tryptophan that was being imported from Japan was contaminated with something that I can´t recall, and this is what was causing disease. Yet they prohibited sales of all tryptophan, including those that were being produced in the USA and that were not contaminated. Why? So that Prozac etc. didn´t have to compete with a cheap natural unpatented substance. Have you seen the last ridiculous move of the FDA? They want to prohibit sales of vitamins and other natural substances. Is that absurd or what? Brazil loves immitating USA´s every move. I hope our government doesn´t do the same here.
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#89
September 6th 03, 03:09 PM
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Is that why the FDA is constantly refusing to approve drugs and why they
pull drugs off the market? Because these drugs are getting in the way of the patented drugs. Tryptophan, a naturally occuring amino acid, is as effective against depression as prozac or any other anti-depressant drug. Tryptophan is the precursor of serotonin. When serotonin levels in your brain are low, you become depressive. Tryptophan has no side effects whatsoever but cannot be patented because it´s a naturally occuring substance. Prozac and other antidepressants have numerous side effects but are patented so a lot of money can be made selling them. Tryptophan was taken out of the market because people were getting sick. There was an investigation to see what was making people sick and they found that the tryptophan that was being imported from Japan was contaminated with something that I can´t recall, and this is what was causing disease. Yet they prohibited sales of all tryptophan, including those that were being produced in the USA and that were not contaminated. Why? So that Prozac etc. didn´t have to compete with a cheap natural unpatented substance. Have you seen the last ridiculous move of the FDA? They want to prohibit sales of vitamins and other natural substances. Is that absurd or what? Brazil loves immitating USA´s every move. I hope our government doesn´t do the same here.
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