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#21
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Good luck, then. I can't quite see how you're going to do anything
else but confine one cat for the rest of it's life if you aren't willing to let them work it out in a supervised, controlled environment. Sometimes it does take many months before cats get their issues sorted out. It may take longer now that the cats have been seperated for so long and the resident cat has "won" by getting the newcomer locked up all day everyday. It's possible that the stray has such hostility problems that he can't live with another cat, but your description of pouncing and screaming and the fact that the cat gets along fine with the kitten doesn't really indicate a hopelessly hostile cat to me. I've seen introductions that take 6 months to a year to settle down between adult cats. It is hard to go through, but I don't see much of an alternative here. Just don't let both cats outdoors at the same time until they can coexist in the house. |
#22
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The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker.
The confined cat is loved and nurtured. I sleep with him, feed him three times a day, change his water and dry food dish, clean his litter box, let the young one come in to visit. I don't hold his behavior against him. It's his nature, not his choice. He's a great cat with people, and he's devoted to me, even though I keep him confined. During the two and a half months after I had him neutered, he mostly stayed with me wherever I went, and would move from one side of the room to another just to say close to me. But during that period of his freedom he became more and more determined to keep the other male cats away, and he drove them away from their usual places on the porch and in the yard, until they were keeping their distance and I was taking their food out to them. Then I confined him, and coincidentally or not, that day was the last I ever saw of one of my males, who disappeared after he was fed the evening meal. Yesterday I tried again to see if I could keep the former stray, whose name is Thug, away from my black male, whose name is Willie. So I let him out, and for a while everything was ok, except that Willie would not follow me around the yard with Thug there. He just kept his distance. After a while Thug started paying more attention to Willie, and would start in his direction, but I would stop him, and distract him with something or other. But this only worked for a while. Eventually Thug became determined to get past me and approach Willie, and did so. Willie started growling, as usual, and when Thug came withing 10 feet, Willie ran off into a wooded area, with Thug chasing him. Willie got away, and I managed to catch Thug and take him back to his room. But I don't think he understands the reason why he was confined again. A couple of hours later Willie reappeared, and seemed back to normal. All that was a repeat of the way it is now, whenever I let Thug out, which I've only done twice, and the way things were last summer. Thug seems to react to Willie the way a bull, if one believes the stereotype, reacts to seeing red. Usually last summer Willie would try to stand his ground, but when Thug got too close he would scream and run away. Thug is not an especially pretty cat. He has a handsome face, but he's a grey and black tabby whose body is a bit small in relation to his head size. Maybe that's because he wasn't able to find enough to eat while he was growing up. I don't know his history. I'm not sure anyone else would want him, but I would give him up, even though I'm attached to him, if it would give him a better life. Pictures of my cats, except Thug, are at http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crcats.html I'll try to get a picture of Thug there later today. Calvin Rice |
#23
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The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker.
The confined cat is loved and nurtured. I sleep with him, feed him three times a day, change his water and dry food dish, clean his litter box, let the young one come in to visit. I don't hold his behavior against him. It's his nature, not his choice. He's a great cat with people, and he's devoted to me, even though I keep him confined. During the two and a half months after I had him neutered, he mostly stayed with me wherever I went, and would move from one side of the room to another just to say close to me. But during that period of his freedom he became more and more determined to keep the other male cats away, and he drove them away from their usual places on the porch and in the yard, until they were keeping their distance and I was taking their food out to them. Then I confined him, and coincidentally or not, that day was the last I ever saw of one of my males, who disappeared after he was fed the evening meal. Yesterday I tried again to see if I could keep the former stray, whose name is Thug, away from my black male, whose name is Willie. So I let him out, and for a while everything was ok, except that Willie would not follow me around the yard with Thug there. He just kept his distance. After a while Thug started paying more attention to Willie, and would start in his direction, but I would stop him, and distract him with something or other. But this only worked for a while. Eventually Thug became determined to get past me and approach Willie, and did so. Willie started growling, as usual, and when Thug came withing 10 feet, Willie ran off into a wooded area, with Thug chasing him. Willie got away, and I managed to catch Thug and take him back to his room. But I don't think he understands the reason why he was confined again. A couple of hours later Willie reappeared, and seemed back to normal. All that was a repeat of the way it is now, whenever I let Thug out, which I've only done twice, and the way things were last summer. Thug seems to react to Willie the way a bull, if one believes the stereotype, reacts to seeing red. Usually last summer Willie would try to stand his ground, but when Thug got too close he would scream and run away. Thug is not an especially pretty cat. He has a handsome face, but he's a grey and black tabby whose body is a bit small in relation to his head size. Maybe that's because he wasn't able to find enough to eat while he was growing up. I don't know his history. I'm not sure anyone else would want him, but I would give him up, even though I'm attached to him, if it would give him a better life. Pictures of my cats, except Thug, are at http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crcats.html I'll try to get a picture of Thug there later today. Calvin Rice |
#24
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You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this
exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. Karen "Calvin Rice" wrote in message m... The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker. The confined cat is loved and nurtured. I sleep with him, feed him three times a day, change his water and dry food dish, clean his litter box, let the young one come in to visit. I don't hold his behavior against him. It's his nature, not his choice. He's a great cat with people, and he's devoted to me, even though I keep him confined. During the two and a half months after I had him neutered, he mostly stayed with me wherever I went, and would move from one side of the room to another just to say close to me. But during that period of his freedom he became more and more determined to keep the other male cats away, and he drove them away from their usual places on the porch and in the yard, until they were keeping their distance and I was taking their food out to them. Then I confined him, and coincidentally or not, that day was the last I ever saw of one of my males, who disappeared after he was fed the evening meal. Yesterday I tried again to see if I could keep the former stray, whose name is Thug, away from my black male, whose name is Willie. So I let him out, and for a while everything was ok, except that Willie would not follow me around the yard with Thug there. He just kept his distance. After a while Thug started paying more attention to Willie, and would start in his direction, but I would stop him, and distract him with something or other. But this only worked for a while. Eventually Thug became determined to get past me and approach Willie, and did so. Willie started growling, as usual, and when Thug came withing 10 feet, Willie ran off into a wooded area, with Thug chasing him. Willie got away, and I managed to catch Thug and take him back to his room. But I don't think he understands the reason why he was confined again. A couple of hours later Willie reappeared, and seemed back to normal. All that was a repeat of the way it is now, whenever I let Thug out, which I've only done twice, and the way things were last summer. Thug seems to react to Willie the way a bull, if one believes the stereotype, reacts to seeing red. Usually last summer Willie would try to stand his ground, but when Thug got too close he would scream and run away. Thug is not an especially pretty cat. He has a handsome face, but he's a grey and black tabby whose body is a bit small in relation to his head size. Maybe that's because he wasn't able to find enough to eat while he was growing up. I don't know his history. I'm not sure anyone else would want him, but I would give him up, even though I'm attached to him, if it would give him a better life. Pictures of my cats, except Thug, are at http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crcats.html I'll try to get a picture of Thug there later today. Calvin Rice |
#25
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You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this
exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. Karen "Calvin Rice" wrote in message m... The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker. The confined cat is loved and nurtured. I sleep with him, feed him three times a day, change his water and dry food dish, clean his litter box, let the young one come in to visit. I don't hold his behavior against him. It's his nature, not his choice. He's a great cat with people, and he's devoted to me, even though I keep him confined. During the two and a half months after I had him neutered, he mostly stayed with me wherever I went, and would move from one side of the room to another just to say close to me. But during that period of his freedom he became more and more determined to keep the other male cats away, and he drove them away from their usual places on the porch and in the yard, until they were keeping their distance and I was taking their food out to them. Then I confined him, and coincidentally or not, that day was the last I ever saw of one of my males, who disappeared after he was fed the evening meal. Yesterday I tried again to see if I could keep the former stray, whose name is Thug, away from my black male, whose name is Willie. So I let him out, and for a while everything was ok, except that Willie would not follow me around the yard with Thug there. He just kept his distance. After a while Thug started paying more attention to Willie, and would start in his direction, but I would stop him, and distract him with something or other. But this only worked for a while. Eventually Thug became determined to get past me and approach Willie, and did so. Willie started growling, as usual, and when Thug came withing 10 feet, Willie ran off into a wooded area, with Thug chasing him. Willie got away, and I managed to catch Thug and take him back to his room. But I don't think he understands the reason why he was confined again. A couple of hours later Willie reappeared, and seemed back to normal. All that was a repeat of the way it is now, whenever I let Thug out, which I've only done twice, and the way things were last summer. Thug seems to react to Willie the way a bull, if one believes the stereotype, reacts to seeing red. Usually last summer Willie would try to stand his ground, but when Thug got too close he would scream and run away. Thug is not an especially pretty cat. He has a handsome face, but he's a grey and black tabby whose body is a bit small in relation to his head size. Maybe that's because he wasn't able to find enough to eat while he was growing up. I don't know his history. I'm not sure anyone else would want him, but I would give him up, even though I'm attached to him, if it would give him a better life. Pictures of my cats, except Thug, are at http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crcats.html I'll try to get a picture of Thug there later today. Calvin Rice |
#26
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Hiya Calvin -
Yes, I got that Willie was the one who was running away and screaming : If you can find an alternate home for Thug then yes that might be a solution. I am however sanguine about the difficulties of re-homing adult cats, especially "not particularly pretty ones". It's no small task. I really didn't mean to imply that Thug was being mistreated. I do think, however, that it's not ideal being confined and that it is definitely hard on the human who has to chop themselves up in pieces to attend to all the cats. And you wouldn't be writing if it wasn't a problem, right? Introducing unrelated adult cats is really hard. My two were introduced as year and 3/4 females and it was six weeks before there was a modicum of peace in the house and I had pretty much lost my mind. I thought it was hopeless, but they are now reasonably companionable and while they still wrestle and bash each over the head daily, it's *mostly* in fun. But yes, the first cat who has ended up the dominant one terrorized the new cat for quite a while. I did keep them seperated for chunks of time (like sleeping), but also gave them increasing chunks of time together - ending it when the fighting broke out and then trying again later. Why are you putting them together outside instead of inside? Outside IME is the biggest bone of contention. Can you try releasing them together inside - maybe 2 or 3 attached rooms with some safe hiding places? Then back to seperation again for a while. Do you think they'll really hurt one another? If you give Willie an escape hatch, he should be able to get away when he has to. Don't do it every day, just periodically a few times a week and keep everything else normal. You may find that they will eventually stop the pattern in that space only and work out what is permissable. You have to realize that they can't talk and that they are defining boundaries for each other by attacking. If over a period of time, they can work out brief periods of co-existence in the same area of your house, then there is hope. Just don't rush the outside stuff. Let Willie have outside as his kingdom for now and see if he can share the inside with Thug from time to time. (You can install a magentized cat door to keep Thug inside, if necessary). Getting him free range inside the house would make things alot easier on everybody. And if relative peace reigns for a long time, then you can slowly work on the outside problem. Male cats in nature *don't* share their territories with other adult male cats, so Thug is just trying to chase off the reigning king so he can rule the roost. You're the one who has to convince them that they're both staying so they might as well get used to it. Give Willie lots and lots of extra attention after the sessions are over and tell him that he'll always be your cat. And ignore Thug right afterwards so he can see that you're not going to favor him over Willie. Try feeding them in the same area of the house with really yummy stuff. If they'll chow down on canned tuna within eyesight of each other - then you're halfway there. Figure the timeline is 6 more months and then evaluate where you are. If you can't get the inside detente in that period of time, then you probably never will. But I think you'll see a lot of progress and they'll have enough of an understanding between them to make mutual outdoor access possible at that point. Sure, it's a long time. But getting cats to overcome their instinctual behavior is not a quick-snap process. Keeping them permanently seperated is giving them hope that they won't have to live together after all. No cat likes change and this sort of change is always going to strike them as an unmitigated bad and unnatural thing. It's only through repeated exposure to each other that they can learn that it isn't the end of the world as they know it.I just don't know of anyway past it except "through". |
#27
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Hiya Calvin -
Yes, I got that Willie was the one who was running away and screaming : If you can find an alternate home for Thug then yes that might be a solution. I am however sanguine about the difficulties of re-homing adult cats, especially "not particularly pretty ones". It's no small task. I really didn't mean to imply that Thug was being mistreated. I do think, however, that it's not ideal being confined and that it is definitely hard on the human who has to chop themselves up in pieces to attend to all the cats. And you wouldn't be writing if it wasn't a problem, right? Introducing unrelated adult cats is really hard. My two were introduced as year and 3/4 females and it was six weeks before there was a modicum of peace in the house and I had pretty much lost my mind. I thought it was hopeless, but they are now reasonably companionable and while they still wrestle and bash each over the head daily, it's *mostly* in fun. But yes, the first cat who has ended up the dominant one terrorized the new cat for quite a while. I did keep them seperated for chunks of time (like sleeping), but also gave them increasing chunks of time together - ending it when the fighting broke out and then trying again later. Why are you putting them together outside instead of inside? Outside IME is the biggest bone of contention. Can you try releasing them together inside - maybe 2 or 3 attached rooms with some safe hiding places? Then back to seperation again for a while. Do you think they'll really hurt one another? If you give Willie an escape hatch, he should be able to get away when he has to. Don't do it every day, just periodically a few times a week and keep everything else normal. You may find that they will eventually stop the pattern in that space only and work out what is permissable. You have to realize that they can't talk and that they are defining boundaries for each other by attacking. If over a period of time, they can work out brief periods of co-existence in the same area of your house, then there is hope. Just don't rush the outside stuff. Let Willie have outside as his kingdom for now and see if he can share the inside with Thug from time to time. (You can install a magentized cat door to keep Thug inside, if necessary). Getting him free range inside the house would make things alot easier on everybody. And if relative peace reigns for a long time, then you can slowly work on the outside problem. Male cats in nature *don't* share their territories with other adult male cats, so Thug is just trying to chase off the reigning king so he can rule the roost. You're the one who has to convince them that they're both staying so they might as well get used to it. Give Willie lots and lots of extra attention after the sessions are over and tell him that he'll always be your cat. And ignore Thug right afterwards so he can see that you're not going to favor him over Willie. Try feeding them in the same area of the house with really yummy stuff. If they'll chow down on canned tuna within eyesight of each other - then you're halfway there. Figure the timeline is 6 more months and then evaluate where you are. If you can't get the inside detente in that period of time, then you probably never will. But I think you'll see a lot of progress and they'll have enough of an understanding between them to make mutual outdoor access possible at that point. Sure, it's a long time. But getting cats to overcome their instinctual behavior is not a quick-snap process. Keeping them permanently seperated is giving them hope that they won't have to live together after all. No cat likes change and this sort of change is always going to strike them as an unmitigated bad and unnatural thing. It's only through repeated exposure to each other that they can learn that it isn't the end of the world as they know it.I just don't know of anyway past it except "through". |
#28
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"Karen" wrote in message ...
You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. I would have to confine Willie inside to expose them to each other inside, otherwise he would simply run outside at first sight of Thug. Willie has never been confined inside. He has always been free to go in and out as he pleases. I don't let the cats in and out. They always have a way to go in and out without having to ask. Of course I could confine him, but it would be like a betrayal of his trust. -cr |
#29
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"Karen" wrote in message ...
You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. I would have to confine Willie inside to expose them to each other inside, otherwise he would simply run outside at first sight of Thug. Willie has never been confined inside. He has always been free to go in and out as he pleases. I don't let the cats in and out. They always have a way to go in and out without having to ask. Of course I could confine him, but it would be like a betrayal of his trust. -cr |
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