Getting ready for a new aby kitten in Chicago-advice on vets

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
(-L.) wrote:

**** the catteries and kennels I have been in all cage their animals.
I don't think I've ever encountered one who didn't.

And yet I've never encountered one that did,

Nice smell of stud all over the house. Loverly.


other than a BYB. No wonder your
opinion of breeders is so different than mine is.


Actually the ****ty Birman breeder I referenced is supposedly "well
respected" in the Birman circles. Heh. All the vets have a different
opinion of her.

-L.

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
(-L.) wrote:

And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
again, it was too late.

Retun clauses do not insure ethics.

Of course not. But did the shelter contact Birman rescue? The Birman Fanciers
Association would certainly condemn any breeder that refused to take back a
cat, so I assume they weren't notified.

Um, you assume wrong, then. Some got all over the case of the
breeder, but it didn't make her move any faster. This woman is such a
fing bitch, most people avoid her at all costs. Other breeeders
supported her. The cat ended up being placed in a new home by
volunteer rescuers through a network of people who were notified. Not
one breeder was instrumental in making it happen, although some were
sympathetic to the plight of the animal.

-L.

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
(-L.) wrote:

And the shiity breeder I spoke of earlier who left the cat at the
shelter for over a week despite knowing it was there was a Birman
breeder with a return clause in her contract. So return clauses don't
mean diddly squat, either. Rumor has it that the elderly lady who
took the cat to the shelter contacted the breeder and she refused to
respond. The shelter got the cat, and then contacted the breeder
directly and she ****ed around so long before checking on the cat
again, it was too late.

Retun clauses do not insure ethics.

Of course not. But did the shelter contact Birman rescue? The Birman Fanciers
Association would certainly condemn any breeder that refused to take back a
cat, so I assume they weren't notified.

Um, you assume wrong, then. Some got all over the case of the
breeder, but it didn't make her move any faster. This woman is such a
fing bitch, most people avoid her at all costs. Other breeeders
supported her. The cat ended up being placed in a new home by
volunteer rescuers through a network of people who were notified. Not
one breeder was instrumental in making it happen, although some were
sympathetic to the plight of the animal.

-L.

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
(-L.) wrote:

If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
purebred. Plain and simple.

No, it isn't. But the average person hasn't studied breed standards, has
he/she?

The "average" shelter intake personnel, along with most every person
doing rescue I've ever encountered is able to identify breeds, based
on standards.


My point is that to the uneducated eye, many a cat that comes into a
shelter may appear to be purebred, but is not.

You paint all shelter workers as uneducated. I see. These people see
more purebred animals in a week than the average person sees in a
lifetime.



It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
background.

Some come in with
pedigrees, as well.

If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.

If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.

I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type
in
a
certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed
are
actually that breed,

People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.

I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.

and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most
of
the
time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
breeder friends are contributing to the problem.

As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.

Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.

Really? But some of the cats listed as Birmans on petfinders.org don't even
have white feet.

Why do you keep harping on petfinders.org? They aren't repersentative
of shelters, ya know.

And why does one see so many grey cats called Russian Blues,
even if the body type is nothing like a Russian Blue?

Because these people are labeleing the cat as a breed to get people
interested in it - we have been over this before. It's not a practice
I believe in, but many rescue orgs do it. Some may be so stupid they
think the animals are purebred, but IME, most people doing rescue are
well educated on most breed standards - enough to be able to pick out
those that are probably mixes from those that clearly are not. The
point is moot, though, if the animal is so close to breed standard
that it takes a "judge" to determine if it is or not - the animal is
clearly of purebred linage.



That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really
a
purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they
can
trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat
may
look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.

Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.

That's exactly what I said, or meant to say. They have CFA judges and
experienced breeders who are able to tell whether or not the cat is purebred,
if the cat doesn't have papers. If you have the papers, the cattery is listed
right there so you can just call them. And/or you put out an alert on the
Birman Fanciers list, to ask if anyone has info on this cat, or recognizes its
lineage.

Most shelters work with breed rescue and often times call them in on
cats that are questionable.



Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
the prentious assholes that we already know they are.

Whatever.


So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it
must
have come from a breeder at some point is false.

Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:

You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.

And exactly how many of these exquisite examples of the breed are you getting
in?

More than you are aware of, apparently. All of the 15-25% stat I
quoted were clearly purebred, or close enough that the point was moot.


Who is deciding they are such perfect examples of the breed? The
shelter
workers?

Often. Other times, breed rescue. Breed identification isn't
neuroscience.



I couldn't tell a good example of an Aby, for example, because I don't know
anything about them,

Are you able to tell if one is purebred? It isn't hard.

but someone else here obviously does, and could say that
the cat pictured probably was not purebred.

As I did.


Why do breeders continue this sham, then?

I don't know what sham you are referring to. The breeders I know don't fit your
pre-conception,

It's not a pre-conception. It is an opinion formed after years of
cleaning up the messes they have created. But I'm sure you aren't
interested in those stories.

but perhaps I've just been lucky in who I strike up a
conversation with at cat shows. You don't find BYBs and kitten mill producers
at the shows.

Your ignorance is astounding. Some of the ****tiest breeders are
those who think highly of themselves, are well-regarded by other
breeders in their area, and have the lemmings in the breeder world
following them. Having a cat with titles means nothing in terms of
animal welfare.

But like I said, you're probably not interested in hearing about those
examples.


-L.

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
(-L.) wrote:

If a cat is *that* mixed, it isn't going to have the confirmation of a
purebred. Plain and simple.

No, it isn't. But the average person hasn't studied breed standards, has
he/she?

The "average" shelter intake personnel, along with most every person
doing rescue I've ever encountered is able to identify breeds, based
on standards.


My point is that to the uneducated eye, many a cat that comes into a
shelter may appear to be purebred, but is not.

You paint all shelter workers as uneducated. I see. These people see
more purebred animals in a week than the average person sees in a
lifetime.



It doesn't mean there was ever a purebred cat in the cat's
background.

Some come in with
pedigrees, as well.

If from a legimitate registry, I would consider those purebred then.

If there's any doubt, it is listed was listed as
a "breed-mix", in the shelters I worked at.

I'm not saying they aren't, just wondering
how your shelter determines that. The reason I ask is because if I type
in
a
certain breed at petfinders.com, I can see that none of the cats listed
are
actually that breed,

People list them as such hoping someone interested in the breed will
look at them and fall in love. Not an uncommon tactic.

I know, but those cats did not come from any breeder.

and I don't even have a very educated eye. I have a friend
who works in a breed rescue, and it's pretty much the same thing--most
of
the
time the cats in question turn out to be mixed breed.

Many are, but for others it doesn't take a brain scientist to figure
out that one parent, at least, was purebred. Just another way our
breeder friends are contributing to the problem.

As I said, I don't really believe that. I've seen plenty of cats with white
feet that never had a Birman, Ragdoll or Snowshoe cat in their background.

Well, duh. We're not talking coloration alone.

Really? But some of the cats listed as Birmans on petfinders.org don't even
have white feet.

Why do you keep harping on petfinders.org? They aren't repersentative
of shelters, ya know.

And why does one see so many grey cats called Russian Blues,
even if the body type is nothing like a Russian Blue?

Because these people are labeleing the cat as a breed to get people
interested in it - we have been over this before. It's not a practice
I believe in, but many rescue orgs do it. Some may be so stupid they
think the animals are purebred, but IME, most people doing rescue are
well educated on most breed standards - enough to be able to pick out
those that are probably mixes from those that clearly are not. The
point is moot, though, if the animal is so close to breed standard
that it takes a "judge" to determine if it is or not - the animal is
clearly of purebred linage.



That's because white feet can show up naturally. The Birman rescue, for
example, uses CFA judges and breeders to determine whether a cat is really
a
purebred, pedigreed Birman, using related pedigree papers. This way they
can
trace the Birman back to the breeder. While to many people a particular cat
may
look just like a true Birman, the rescue can tell that it's not.

Only because it doesn't have papers? That's ludicrous. A good
breeder can tell if a cat is purebed without any papers, and the good
breeders (an oxymoron if there ever was one) - those who are
interested in the *cats* as well as the breed - will take the cat
regardless of whether or not it came in with registry papers.

That's exactly what I said, or meant to say. They have CFA judges and
experienced breeders who are able to tell whether or not the cat is purebred,
if the cat doesn't have papers. If you have the papers, the cattery is listed
right there so you can just call them. And/or you put out an alert on the
Birman Fanciers list, to ask if anyone has info on this cat, or recognizes its
lineage.

Most shelters work with breed rescue and often times call them in on
cats that are questionable.



Your argument makes the breeders *you* refer to look even more like
the prentious assholes that we already know they are.

Whatever.


So to assume that just because a cat looks like a certain breed of cat it
must
have come from a breeder at some point is false.

Oh, so let me see if I understand you correctly:

You can get a cat that has all of the characteristics of a breed, has
good confirmation, is an exquisite example, and yet, *isn't* purebred,
or at least doesn't have purebred parentage? Yeah, right.

And exactly how many of these exquisite examples of the breed are you getting
in?

More than you are aware of, apparently. All of the 15-25% stat I
quoted were clearly purebred, or close enough that the point was moot.


Who is deciding they are such perfect examples of the breed? The
shelter
workers?

Often. Other times, breed rescue. Breed identification isn't
neuroscience.



I couldn't tell a good example of an Aby, for example, because I don't know
anything about them,

Are you able to tell if one is purebred? It isn't hard.

but someone else here obviously does, and could say that
the cat pictured probably was not purebred.

As I did.


Why do breeders continue this sham, then?

I don't know what sham you are referring to. The breeders I know don't fit your
pre-conception,

It's not a pre-conception. It is an opinion formed after years of
cleaning up the messes they have created. But I'm sure you aren't
interested in those stories.

but perhaps I've just been lucky in who I strike up a
conversation with at cat shows. You don't find BYBs and kitten mill producers
at the shows.

Your ignorance is astounding. Some of the ****tiest breeders are
those who think highly of themselves, are well-regarded by other
breeders in their area, and have the lemmings in the breeder world
following them. Having a cat with titles means nothing in terms of
animal welfare.

But like I said, you're probably not interested in hearing about those
examples.


-L.

(Orchid) wrote in message . com...
On 29 Jul 2003 00:40:20 -0500, Arjun Ray
wrote:

In , ospam
(Yngver) wrote:

| But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
| cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?

| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.

Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?

Most often, it's because the owners don't want to admit
'failure'. I know a breeder who had a cat of her breeding go into a
shelter -- she didn't find out until the people that adopted the cat
contacted her. She had emails saved from the original owners telling
her that everything was fine, etc during the time that the cat was in
the shelter. She contacted the original owners to find out what the
hell was going on, and the wfie said that they didn't call her because
they didn't want her to think they were bad people.

sigh



Orchid

While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
then it ends up in the shelter.

Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.

-L.

(Orchid) wrote in message . com...
On 29 Jul 2003 00:40:20 -0500, Arjun Ray
wrote:

In , ospam
(Yngver) wrote:

| But isn't a "return clause" standard in adoption contracts for pedigreed
| cats? Or is that a convenient myth too?

| It's not a myth with responsible breeders.

Then how do cats with pedigree papers wind up in shelters? Or is that
an urban legend (what Lyn has said notwithstanding)?

Most often, it's because the owners don't want to admit
'failure'. I know a breeder who had a cat of her breeding go into a
shelter -- she didn't find out until the people that adopted the cat
contacted her. She had emails saved from the original owners telling
her that everything was fine, etc during the time that the cat was in
the shelter. She contacted the original owners to find out what the
hell was going on, and the wfie said that they didn't call her because
they didn't want her to think they were bad people.

sigh



Orchid

While I think that is true, my experience has been that people get a
purebred animal thinking that it magically is superior to other
animals, and actually know little about the breed. When they find out
that it pees, poops, scratches, destroys things, etc. like all other
animals, or has breed-specific problems, they become disenchanted and
then it ends up in the shelter.

Other people buy purebred animals for status, and aren't the kind of
person who should have any animal at all. It is amazing what people
will tell someone if they want an animal badly enough. Breeders are
duped, too. Other breeders just don't care who the animal goes to.

-L.

wrote in message ...
-L. wrote:
Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
of course APBTs and Staffies.

Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
the other breeds.

They're overbred and ill-bred which enriches for those medical
problems. That's the whole point behind the movement to stop BYBs.


Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.

Well, in the case of those breeds, they aren't for the feint of heart,
and often are purchased for the wrong reasons.

-L.

wrote in message ...
-L. wrote:
Persians and Siamese were the biggest purebred surrenders for us.
Probably because they are also breeds most likely to have problems.
As for dogs, I'd have to say cockers (lots of them) and rotties. And
of course APBTs and Staffies.

Nope, try again. Try because Siamese and Persians are the most popular
breeds therefore there are more of them and you will see more of them in
the surrenders cause they constitute more of the purebred population than
the other breeds.

They're overbred and ill-bred which enriches for those medical
problems. That's the whole point behind the movement to stop BYBs.


Same with APBTS, Staffies, and cockers.

Well, in the case of those breeds, they aren't for the feint of heart,
and often are purchased for the wrong reasons.

-L.

ospam (Yngver) wrote in message ...
With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
to
our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
everyday moggie.

With some breeds, it is unmistakable. Look at this pic. This cat was brought
to
our shelter. Would you call it purebred? It certainly isn't a street cat
everyday moggie.

No, that appears to be a Persian, although whether actually a pedigreed
purebred, I can't tell. I don't know enough about the standards for Persians.

http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/persian.jpg

I think she's a good example of Lyn's "if it looks, acts, walks and smells
purebred." This cat came from a breeder, somewhere, at some point, or
possibly
her parents did. .Whether the breeder was a member of CFA, TICA or what
doesn't
matter.

Of course it matters, because Persians, Siamese and perhaps Maine Coons and
Bengals are the most common kinds of cats that BYB's produce. Why? Because
they're popular, and because the average person can't tell whether the cat is
really purebred or not.

I think you'll agree she didn't turn up in a litter of barn cats.

Probably not, but she may well have turned up in a BYB's back yard.

Even BYBs register their animals...they are no less "purebred" than
those with better pedigrees.




She
wasn't spayed.

Another sign of a BYB or kitten mill cat.

Oh, I love this tactic. "The cat isn't spayed, or isn't a great
example, so it must be from a BYB." Sheesh. Never mind the fact that
most breeders don't spay their animals before releasing them, and
always sell their offal.



Persians are *not* at all uncommon at our shelter. The Korat
we
got last month was neutered. I don't have a pic of him, but he didn't turrn
up
in a litter of barn cats either. Some breeds are unmistakably the product of
deliberate breeding.

Well, if I mate a white cat with a white cat so I can get white kittens, that's
deliberate breeding too. But that's not what I'd call purebred.

I'm not saying no pedigreed purebred cat ever turns up in a shelter,

All registered cats have pedigrees (Hell, all things that reproduce
have pedigrees). Some pedigrees are "more desirable" in the small
minded world of animal breeding. But all registered cats are just as
valid as "purebred" as all others.

Or did you mean "...not saying no registered purebred cats"...


but
depending on the breed, I've known people who've been waiting a couple years
for one.

You are unlikely to find rarer breeds in shelters because the animals
are so expensive. But they do show up on occassion. I've seen a
Japanese Bobtail and a Sphynx, for example.

I'd expect the most common ones to find in shelters would be the
breeds I named above, because there are so many breeders (reputable or not) of
these cats. And yes, I agree, I'd guess Persians would show up most often
because many people buy them on whim (I know people who've seen Persian kittens
in pet stores and bought them then and there) without realizing how much work
they are to keep groomed.

I've seen Persians owned by breeders who aren't properly groomed. I
have had *so* many Persian owners tell me "the breeder never told me
how hard it would be to maintain this cat" - probably 40 or 50 times.
Ignorance is not borne in pet stores alone.

But again, the Persians in pet stores did not come
from responsible breeders. They generally come from kitten mills.

Kitten mill kittens are just as much "registered purebred" as those
which have "more desirable" pedigrees, so what, exactly, is your
point?

Is it that highly pedigreed cats don't show up in shelters? They do,
but not to the same degree that "less desirable" purebreds do, mainly
because they are too expensive for most people to afford.

But that doesn't matter. The cats showing up at shelters, whether
they came from BYBs, top breeders, or whatever, are purebred, and were
purposely bred, and contribute to the overpop problem, just like all
random-bred cats do.

-L.