Today Eli was laying next to me on the floor when Lily started looking in the cat flap (to make sure Eli not around) so she could come in and have a bite to eat. Eli *always* attacks her. So I hid Eli Peace Talks

"CatNipped" wrote

The "alpha" animal theory of husbandry has been disproven many, many times
over.

That would be big news to the "new breed" of horse trainers who are having
such phenomenal success with "problem horses" and training their owners. You
really should let them all know your expert views. I'm sure that after they
learn the truth, they will enjoy even greater success. To help you get
started, here are links to a few of their sites, where you will find their
contact information:

http://www.montyroberts.com/
http://www.horsewhisperer.com/
http://www.parelli.com/home.html
http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/
http://www.tomdorrance.com/
http://www.ponyboy.com/
http://www.markrashid.com/
http://www.johnlyons.com/index.php
http://www.richardshrake.com/
http://www.rayhunt.com/
http://www.chrisirwin.com/
http://www.brannaman.com/index.htm
http://www.chris-cox.com/home.shtml
http://www.reisranch.com/

Most mommy cats I know don't weigh 130+ pounds.

1 : to pull or whip out
2 a : BEAT, STRIKE b : to defeat totally

Again, the difference is in the amount of force used. I can't use enough
force on a 15-lb. cat if I am just a kitten myself. But no matter how much
larger I am than the cat, I can use just enough force to accomplish the
intent, WITHOUT HURTING THE CAT!!!!!

"Pat" wrote in message
...


As a matter of fact, they *do* see us that way. If you have a dog, or
dogs, the dog/s see/s you as the "alpha dog", the leader of his/their
little pack. Or at least, that is how he/they *should* see you, if you are
in control of your dog/s. Same goes for horses. If they do not see you as
the Top Horse in their herd, you WILL get hurt eventually.

I was told when I was trying to learn how to ride, that a rider without
confidence makes many horses nervous. That most horses aren't too bright
anyway, and they get uncomfortable with a rider that doesn't know what they
are doing. And that makes them act out. Which is why I never got very
good. But can still say I've taken some pretty good jumps. (And stayed
on). Of course it was the shortest way back to the barn, the horses idea
not mine.

I still enjoy being able to take a horse out on a trail up near Tahoe or
down in Yosemite. And one of these days I'm going to rent one to ride on
the beach.


With cats who own humans, they see
us as mommy.

Watch mommy cat discipline her kittens and you'll see a whole lotta
whappin' goin' on.

Well my animal control ability improved the day it dawned on me that it
makes no sense to yell at a dog to shut up. Also learned it is very
difficult to control barking with a pair of sisters. One would think she
heard something and grrr. Secone one would take her grr for it and yap.
yap met with bark. and by then they have both forgotten the concept of
hearing something and warning.

Most dog training involved getting their undivided attention. Sometimes
that takes more than asking nicely. But hitting is counterproductive with
most it not all breeds.

If you have watched a mamma cat with her growing kittens. she does swat them
to tell them "no you can't do that"

And while I can hit much harder than a mamma cat, I certainly don't. But
there are times they must be told that some behavior is not acceptable.
Pushing them away from what they are intent on doing only makes sense to me.

Jo

"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote:
I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if
you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box
in
my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of "whap"
from the Meriam-Webster web site:

Main Entry: whap
Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp
variant of WHOP

Come on you two, enough whapping of one another!

Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall.

And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat hitting
her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again.

It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I may
check in again a few years down the line.

Purrs to all in my absence. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

I think both of you need to step back, take a chill pill and take a deep
breath.
I think both of you are reading way to much of your personal opinion into
the posts.
This is not an attack on either of you but my opinion!

You can't get a persons feeling, what they meant or their comprehending the
words from a typed message; even if violence is described to the T. A
whap, a hit, beating, touching can and are all viewed in different terms
unless it is seen by the 2nd party in person. And still it is viewed
differently by the 2nd parties education, up bringing and social
interaction

Child, animal psychology and sociology are so broad based that anything can
be taught and is taken as gospel. There are no such thing as experts just
experience. For every report that says that positive reinforcement by
word work there are 20 others that say it does not same goes for physical
aspect of this question. No shrink or counselor every agrees on the same
diagnoses unless it is obvious condition and still they disagree on how to
fix it.

No matter what there is always someone who will disagree or does not see it
your way

Expert or not Experienced or not It does not matter for anyone If you
weren't there to witness the action or been able to observe the affects or
the effects of the action. NO JUDGMENT CAN, OR SHOULD EVER BE MADE

If this action was done out of anger or revenge than yes PAT you deserve to
have someone do it right back to you. And I said IF YOU DID not that you
did.

Catnipped the other posters may have not taken issue with the incident of
Pat's action. They might have read into to it differently. You know that
everyone views everything differently or they are possibility guilty of it
themselves; not saying anyone is!

.. But personally on my note going after the offender never works they are
still going to do what they want to do and flames just get made and all it
does is get you ****ed off. Unless it is a troll or a moron they are fun to
flame ;-)

Catnipped you do what you got to do but don't leave the group your post
that I have read show that you care about the welfare of animals and do have
insightful feed back.

And I read about the same animal cruelty that you did and It got to me also.
I see the cruelty everyday when I'm at the shelters my punching bag gets
replaced every year some times twice a year.

You got friends here even if you don't realize it and disappearing from a
place that can make you happy or let you vent won't help :-)

Now that I got that off my chest you can vent on me all you like :-o I
will be enjoying my BBQ :-)

Jo Firey wrote:

And while I can hit much harder than a mamma cat, I certainly don't. But
there are times they must be told that some behavior is not acceptable.
Pushing them away from what they are intent on doing only makes sense to me.
Jo

That makes sense although pushing is not quite hitting. I don't know
where the hitting comes from in this thread. I see that Catnipped
brought it up but the very first message was the opposite of hitting
where Pat said she accomplished peace through discussion.

In any case, if hitting is counter-productive, it's easily seen in the
flinch when someone raises a hand. I don't hit my cat ever but she
flinched when I raised my hand and that made me flinch. Why did she do
that? I had to rethink and realize that when I playfight with her I was
sometimes confusing her. Now I make sure she knows we are going to
playfight and she lays on her back in her defensive posture or attacks
my ankles or legs in an offensive posture. I don't ambush her anymore
because I think it scared and confused her. So she stopped flinching
since I stopped ambusing. She still ambushes me though. So that's good.

I don't think I ever hit a cat. But in times of extreme anger, I have
picked up a cat by the scruff of their neck and just glared eyeball to
eyeball. Fortunately the cat is quite docile, maybe reverting to
kittenhood, by this action. Not sure. Rarely do this. Maybe once every
couple years.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote:
I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if
you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box
in
my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of "whap"
from the Meriam-Webster web site:

Main Entry: whap
Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp
variant of WHOP

Come on you two, enough whapping of one another!

Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall.

And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat hitting
her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again.

It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I
may
check in again a few years down the line.

Purrs to all in my absence. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped


Don't be so silly, Lori. What *are* you thinking of? Pat is driven to
distraction by Eli's behaviour.
I don't agree with hitting a cat, I don't think it would work at all, but I
understand why she did it in a moment of pure frustration.
It would be much better if we could get our heads together and work out why
Eli has started to become so aggressive recently.
My guess would be that he could have a health problem, something
uncomfortable that's making him be in a permanent bad mood.

Tweed

CatNipped wrote:
"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote:
I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But if
you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same box
in
my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of "whap"
from the Meriam-Webster web site:

Main Entry: whap
Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp
variant of WHOP

Come on you two, enough whapping of one another!

Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall.

And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat hitting
her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again.

No, I don't have a problem with Pat "hitting her cats." For Christ's
sakes, you make it sound like she beats them regularly. You know Pat
from her posts here for years. I have met Pat IRL. I *know*, and I
suspect if you admit it, you also know...she DOES NOT have the
capability in her body or soul to abuse an animal. I suspect she chose
her words poorly. She may not have handled the situation in the best
way, but the way you defined "whop" for all of us, honestly sounded
like you were accusing her of beating them.

I hope you don't leave. I would miss your posts. But please, take a
step back and maybe stop and think that you weren't there. You didn't
witness anything. Hitting a cat, or a child is wrong IMO, and obviously
your HO also, but I think you're over-reacting and making her sound
like an animal abuser.

Sherry

It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I may
check in again a few years down the line.

Purrs to all in my absence. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped

Tweed wrote:
It would be much better if we could get
our heads together and work out why Eli
has started to become so aggressive
recently.

The reason for Eli's behavior has already been explained by me in a
previous post, and I also gave the solution. Pat doesn't want to expend
the effort and instead will continue to yell at, isolate, stress and hit
her cat because that's what she *wants* to do. To continue such behavior
after one has been offered an effective and gentle alternative just
proves that she gets enjoyment form her unnecessarily cruel treatment of
Eli.

She has some pretty serious issues as it is, and she may very well
alleviate the stress that living in a hoarder situation causes by taking
it out on Eli using his attacks as an excuse. AFAIC, she has no business
caring for any animals right now and the living situation is most likely
creating stress for the cats as well. Eli doesn't deserve to be treated
so cruelly, and her other cat suffered stress not just from him, but
from HER in her treatment of her by dragging her, frightened and
stressed, out from under the bed and then forcing her to be closed in a
room with and near a cat she is terrified of.

None of this is necessary and only serves to stress and frighten the
cats more. Did you know that cats not only purr when they are happy, but
also when they are injured and scared/stressed? The description of them
purring was no doubt their reaction to the fright and trauma that she
inflicted upon them, as it has been on many other occasions. And to see
Pat in a later post justify hitting animals as though she is entitled to
treat them the way she thinks they treat each other just underlines her
severely skewed vision of proper treatment of animals and her desire to
use methods that involve mean physical actions that only serve to
frighten and stress the cats, which in turn makes the behavior worse.

Megan





"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote:
I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But
if
you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same
box
in
my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of
"whap"
from the Meriam-Webster web site:

Main Entry: whap
Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp
variant of WHOP

Come on you two, enough whapping of one another!

Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall.

And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat
hitting
her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again.

It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I
may
check in again a few years down the line.

Purrs to all in my absence. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped


Don't be so silly, Lori. What *are* you thinking of? Pat is driven to
distraction by Eli's behaviour.
I don't agree with hitting a cat, I don't think it would work at all, but
I
understand why she did it in a moment of pure frustration.
It would be much better if we could get our heads together and work out
why
Eli has started to become so aggressive recently.
My guess would be that he could have a health problem, something
uncomfortable that's making him be in a permanent bad mood.

Tweed

Tweed, if Pat would have said she did it in a moment of anger and
frustration, I would have understood (if not condoned) it. But she didn't,
she went on for several posts saying that hitting a cat is a legitimate
training technique.

Hitting the aggressor cat, along with dragging the frightened victim cat out
from under the bed and forcing her into the same small room with the
aggressor cat was downright cruel. I'm sorry, but it is! She rejected all
advice on other, better, ways to handle the problem (things that would
actually *work*) from me and Megan, and instead heatedly defended her
practice of hitting her cats.

Pat has written here about her other problems with her out-of-control house.
Again, every time somebody offered her advice on what to do all she did was
make excuses for why she couldn't follow the advice and asked that somebody
come and clean her house for her instead.

It seems like Pat doesn't come here looking for advice as much as she comes
here to get exoneration for the things she is not willing to make the effort
to change.

And she gets it.

As far as her living conditions, that's fine with me if she wants to
continue to live that way. But I can't stand back and say nothing when she
talks about hitting her cats. I don't care how long someone has posted
here, or how well you think you know them, when it comes down to it, a cat's
welfare should take precedence over "friendship".

But that's just me. If you guys want to accept that, do, but I can't.

I've asked Vicky to unsubscribe me from CatSlaves and I'm leaving this
group. However, for those of you who have pages on my web site, I'll
continue to support them and you all have my email if you'd like to send me
something to add to them.

Hugs,

CatNipped

CatNipped wrote:
"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Takayuki" wrote in message
...
"CatNipped" wrote:
I never said that how I felt was your problem, indeed it's not. But
if
you're wondering why I put your "whapping" of your cat into the same
box
in
my mind as cat abusers, then refer to the following definition of
"whap"
from the Meriam-Webster web site:

Main Entry: whap
Pronunciation: 'hwäp, 'wäp
variant of WHOP

Come on you two, enough whapping of one another!

Sure Tak, I won't beat my head against a brick wall.

And since it appears that nobody else here has a problem with Pat
hitting
her cats, I guess it's about time for me to leave again.

It looks like I've overstayed my welcome. I'm off to the mothership - I
may
check in again a few years down the line.

Purrs to all in my absence. ;

Hugs,

CatNipped


Don't be so silly, Lori. What *are* you thinking of? Pat is driven to
distraction by Eli's behaviour.
I don't agree with hitting a cat, I don't think it would work at all, but
I
understand why she did it in a moment of pure frustration.
It would be much better if we could get our heads together and work out
why
Eli has started to become so aggressive recently.
My guess would be that he could have a health problem, something
uncomfortable that's making him be in a permanent bad mood.

Tweed

Tweed, if Pat would have said she did it in a moment of anger and
frustration, I would have understood (if not condoned) it. But she didn't,
she went on for several posts saying that hitting a cat is a legitimate
training technique.

Hitting the aggressor cat, along with dragging the frightened victim cat out
from under the bed and forcing her into the same small room with the
aggressor cat was downright cruel. I'm sorry, but it is! She rejected all
advice on other, better, ways to handle the problem (things that would
actually *work*) from me and Megan, and instead heatedly defended her
practice of hitting her cats.

Pat has written here about her other problems with her out-of-control house.
Again, every time somebody offered her advice on what to do all she did was
make excuses for why she couldn't follow the advice and asked that somebody
come and clean her house for her instead.

It seems like Pat doesn't come here looking for advice as much as she comes
here to get exoneration for the things she is not willing to make the effort
to change.

And she gets it.

As far as her living conditions, that's fine with me if she wants to
continue to live that way. But I can't stand back and say nothing when she
talks about hitting her cats. I don't care how long someone has posted
here, or how well you think you know them, when it comes down to it, a cat's
welfare should take precedence over "friendship".

But that's just me. If you guys want to accept that, do, but I can't.

I've asked Vicky to unsubscribe me from CatSlaves and I'm leaving this
group. However, for those of you who have pages on my web site, I'll
continue to support them and you all have my email if you'd like to send me
something to add to them.

Hugs,

CatNipped

I"m sorry you feel that you need to unsubscribe. I know you're in a bad
place right now and it's easy to over-react and blow things out of
proportion. I hope you're able to sort things out and return soon.

Sherry