Struggling with decision...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"NateB323" wrote in message
...

I've been posting about TB and our battle with his liver disease. He is
in the vet right now on IV fluids because he had a bad weekend, vomiting
up to 4 times a day. I would have to syringe feed him right after he
vomitted to make sure he got some food in him, then 3-4 hours later he
would vomit up a little that hadn't gone through him yet. He was
looking weaker, walking very slow, kind of wobly, and he was loosing
weight. The vet weighed him in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, down about a
pound from two weeks ago. His blood values still show elevated ALT
(400), ALP (300), and dramatically elevated bilirubin (15). His HCT, I
believe that is how they measure red cells...was at 24.8% but his white
cell count was extremely high at 52! This is very concerning, the vet
doesn't know if this is due to infection or ongoing inflammation, but
he has been on antibiotics for a long time. I still don't know what
all these figures really mean, but she is pushing an exploratory
surgery to see what this expanding fluid structure is underneath his
galbladder. She also wants to get biopsy's of liver, galbladder, and
maybe others. I am scared to death to put TB through surgery at his
age of 15 and weakend state. I need to tell her today if I want to
proceed with the surgery or not. They will have to do a clot test and
check other levels, but I am so concerned about the possibility of him
dying during the procedure. I am also concerned about his recovery
process...I don't know, what if I put out all this money for the
surgery, he makes it, they find out what exactly he has, and treat it,
OR, he dies during procedure, OR he never fully recovers and has even
worse final days because of the surgery. I am stressed out beyond
anything I have ever experienced, I love this cat as much as I love my
mom or dad. What should I do?


--
NateB323

I can't help with this decision, but to counter what one idiot*
(cough*Lyn*cough) posted - my 15-year-old went through *THREE* surgeries
within three weeks and she did just fine.

*This particular idiot told another idiot that he was right to return his
cat to a kill shelter because of a chest cold. She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep
and
adopt a healthy cat.

The best advice I can give is listen to your vet, who knows your cat, and
don't heed bad advice from crazies on the internet.

Hugs,

CatNipped


Hey ... YOU are one of those "crazies" on the Internet so your advice is
equally tainted.

Hi Nate, I can tell you that I was scared to death to put my Fritz through a teeth cleaning and liver needle biopsy last year, and he made it through both just fine. He was 18 at the time, was throwing up stomach acid daily, and his appetite was way off. Of course his disease sounds a bit different, but these days they can monitor them so carefully and practically do miracles. The gas they use to knock them out is very easily cleared out of the lungs, and if he has a strong heart, you shouldn't have any problem. When they shut off the gas, they wake right up.
It could be that they find a blockage in those bile ducts and can clear it right out, or dissolve it.
Also the fluids they give balance them right out and they can feel LOTS better within a short time of being on a drip.
They do these things all the time. Unless your vet is a total unethical moron, they wouldn't advise something so risky. No vet wants to lose a cat during surgery.
Go with your gut. What does your intuition tell you?
The results of Fritz's biopsy were inconclusive, mild liver inflammation, and I would not permit a more invasive wedge biopsy which had higher risk of complications and infections, so we may never know exactly what's wrong with him, but it's probably cholagiohepatitis brought on by an immune system thats attacking his own tissues.
There's no real cure for that, but if TB has a blockage I bet that's fixable.
Many purrs and mojo to you in this most difficult of times...believe me, I know.
madsongstress

Originally Posted by NateB323

I've been posting about TB and our battle with his liver disease. He is in the vet right now on IV fluids because he had a bad weekend, vomiting up to 4 times a day. I would have to syringe feed him right after he vomitted to make sure he got some food in him, then 3-4 hours later he would vomit up a little that hadn't gone through him yet. He was looking weaker, walking very slow, kind of wobly, and he was loosing weight. The vet weighed him in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, down about a pound from two weeks ago. His blood values still show elevated ALT (400), ALP (300), and dramatically elevated bilirubin (15). His HCT, I believe that is how they measure red cells...was at 24.8% but his white cell count was extremely high at 52! This is very concerning, the vet doesn't know if this is due to infection or ongoing inflammation, but he has been on antibiotics for a long time. I still don't know what all these figures really mean, but she is pushing an exploratory surgery to see what this expanding fluid structure is underneath his galbladder. She also wants to get biopsy's of liver, galbladder, and maybe others. I am scared to death to put TB through surgery at his age of 15 and weakend state. I need to tell her today if I want to proceed with the surgery or not. They will have to do a clot test and check other levels, but I am so concerned about the possibility of him dying during the procedure. I am also concerned about his recovery process...I don't know, what if I put out all this money for the surgery, he makes it, they find out what exactly he has, and treat it, OR, he dies during procedure, OR he never fully recovers and has even worse final days because of the surgery. I am stressed out beyond anything I have ever experienced, I love this cat as much as I love my mom or dad. What should I do?

"Philip" wrote in message
nk.net...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"NateB323" wrote in message
...

I've been posting about TB and our battle with his liver disease. He
is
in the vet right now on IV fluids because he had a bad weekend,
vomiting
up to 4 times a day. I would have to syringe feed him right after he
vomitted to make sure he got some food in him, then 3-4 hours later he
would vomit up a little that hadn't gone through him yet. He was
looking weaker, walking very slow, kind of wobly, and he was loosing
weight. The vet weighed him in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, down about a
pound from two weeks ago. His blood values still show elevated ALT
(400), ALP (300), and dramatically elevated bilirubin (15). His HCT, I
believe that is how they measure red cells...was at 24.8% but his white
cell count was extremely high at 52! This is very concerning, the vet
doesn't know if this is due to infection or ongoing inflammation, but
he has been on antibiotics for a long time. I still don't know what
all these figures really mean, but she is pushing an exploratory
surgery to see what this expanding fluid structure is underneath his
galbladder. She also wants to get biopsy's of liver, galbladder, and
maybe others. I am scared to death to put TB through surgery at his
age of 15 and weakend state. I need to tell her today if I want to
proceed with the surgery or not. They will have to do a clot test and
check other levels, but I am so concerned about the possibility of him
dying during the procedure. I am also concerned about his recovery
process...I don't know, what if I put out all this money for the
surgery, he makes it, they find out what exactly he has, and treat it,
OR, he dies during procedure, OR he never fully recovers and has even
worse final days because of the surgery. I am stressed out beyond
anything I have ever experienced, I love this cat as much as I love my
mom or dad. What should I do?


--
NateB323

I can't help with this decision, but to counter what one idiot*
(cough*Lyn*cough) posted - my 15-year-old went through *THREE* surgeries
within three weeks and she did just fine.

*This particular idiot told another idiot that he was right to return
his
cat to a kill shelter because of a chest cold. She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep
and
adopt a healthy cat.

The best advice I can give is listen to your vet, who knows your cat,
and
don't heed bad advice from crazies on the internet.

Hugs,

CatNipped


Hey ... YOU are one of those "crazies" on the Internet so your advice is
equally tainted.



WTG Philip, catchem not looking, never having done nothing to you and
stickem!
Is this what we have resorted to?

Thank you for all of your support and opinions. However, there is no need to highjack this post and make it another battle ground for people who dislike each other. I am stressed out enough, I don't need you guys fighting here. I went to the vet and talked to her today. I also got to be with TB for over an hour. He looked so much better from the drip, but I know if I just took him home, he would probably go right back. He will not eat at the vet, he never has, and they don't do feeding tubes through the nose, so I syringe fed him there tonight. He took it well, and did not vomit or even act like he was going to. He wanted to go home so bad though, I could tell. Everytime I stood up, he started purring and stood up too. This is the hardest decision I have ever made...I know if I bring him home and continue the regular treatment, he'll go downhill and probably die within a month or less. The thing that is most worisome is this "lobulated fluid structure" that is around his galbladder. This could be the cause of his very high white blood cell count. If he didn't have this structure, I would not even consider the surgery and hope for the best. But, since this structure is getting more "extensive" I'm afraid of what it could do. To make matters worse, I am taking serious flak from my fiance. If it were up to her, she would put him down, hell, she would have put him down long ago...she just doesn't understand. Its causing problems right now...this whole situation just plain sucks!

Originally Posted by whitershadeofpale

"Philip" wrote in message
nk.net...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"NateB323" wrote in message
...

I've been posting about TB and our battle with his liver disease. He
is
in the vet right now on IV fluids because he had a bad weekend,
vomiting
up to 4 times a day. I would have to syringe feed him right after he
vomitted to make sure he got some food in him, then 3-4 hours later he
would vomit up a little that hadn't gone through him yet. He was
looking weaker, walking very slow, kind of wobly, and he was loosing
weight. The vet weighed him in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, down about a
pound from two weeks ago. His blood values still show elevated ALT
(400), ALP (300), and dramatically elevated bilirubin (15). His HCT, I
believe that is how they measure red cells...was at 24.8% but his white
cell count was extremely high at 52! This is very concerning, the vet
doesn't know if this is due to infection or ongoing inflammation, but
he has been on antibiotics for a long time. I still don't know what
all these figures really mean, but she is pushing an exploratory
surgery to see what this expanding fluid structure is underneath his
galbladder. She also wants to get biopsy's of liver, galbladder, and
maybe others. I am scared to death to put TB through surgery at his
age of 15 and weakend state. I need to tell her today if I want to
proceed with the surgery or not. They will have to do a clot test and
check other levels, but I am so concerned about the possibility of him
dying during the procedure. I am also concerned about his recovery
process...I don't know, what if I put out all this money for the
surgery, he makes it, they find out what exactly he has, and treat it,
OR, he dies during procedure, OR he never fully recovers and has even
worse final days because of the surgery. I am stressed out beyond
anything I have ever experienced, I love this cat as much as I love my
mom or dad. What should I do?


--
NateB323

I can't help with this decision, but to counter what one idiot*
(cough*Lyn*cough) posted - my 15-year-old went through *THREE* surgeries
within three weeks and she did just fine.

*This particular idiot told another idiot that he was right to return
his
cat to a kill shelter because of a chest cold. She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep
and
adopt a healthy cat.

The best advice I can give is listen to your vet, who knows your cat,
and
don't heed bad advice from crazies on the internet.

Hugs,

CatNipped


Hey ... YOU are one of those "crazies" on the Internet so your advice is
equally tainted.



WTG Philip, catchem not looking, never having done nothing to you and
stickem!
Is this what we have resorted to?

"NateB323" wrote in message
...

I've been posting about TB and our battle with his liver disease. He is
in the vet right now on IV fluids because he had a bad weekend, vomiting
up to 4 times a day. I would have to syringe feed him right after he
vomitted to make sure he got some food in him, then 3-4 hours later he
would vomit up a little that hadn't gone through him yet. He was
looking weaker, walking very slow, kind of wobly, and he was loosing
weight. The vet weighed him in at 8 pounds 9 ounces, down about a
pound from two weeks ago. His blood values still show elevated ALT
(400), ALP (300), and dramatically elevated bilirubin (15). His HCT, I
believe that is how they measure red cells...was at 24.8% but his white
cell count was extremely high at 52! This is very concerning, the vet
doesn't know if this is due to infection or ongoing inflammation, but
he has been on antibiotics for a long time. I still don't know what
all these figures really mean, but she is pushing an exploratory
surgery to see what this expanding fluid structure is underneath his
galbladder. She also wants to get biopsy's of liver, galbladder, and
maybe others. I am scared to death to put TB through surgery at his
age of 15 and weakend state. I need to tell her today if I want to
proceed with the surgery or not. They will have to do a clot test and
check other levels, but I am so concerned about the possibility of him
dying during the procedure. I am also concerned about his recovery
process...I don't know, what if I put out all this money for the
surgery, he makes it, they find out what exactly he has, and treat it,
OR, he dies during procedure, OR he never fully recovers and has even
worse final days because of the surgery. I am stressed out beyond
anything I have ever experienced, I love this cat as much as I love my
mom or dad. What should I do?


Very tough decision. I guess a lot depends on how much credibility you give
your vet. Her reasons for recommending surgery are legitimate and credible.
However, do you believe in your heart that she's recommending surgery
because she honestly believes it may lead to a cure and she believes her
chances of surviving surgery are reasonably good, or do you believe her
motives are purely financial? What do your instincts tell you?

Her age should not be the determining factor- 15 isn't very old for a cat.
We had older cats pull through much more serious surgeries. I assume (hope)
your vet would use a gas anesthetic agent (Isoflurane) and a rapid acting
induction agent (propofol). This combination minimizes anesthetic risks
*significantly* and is usually ideal for older cats. However, its not an
ideal combination if your vet is not experienced and comfortable with
inhalant anesthetics.

If I were in the same situation, I'd opt for surgery because I'd trust my
vet if she has a bile duct obstruction she has no chance without surgery.
But that's me.

Best of luck,

Phil

The first thing I would do were I you is ... stop consulting this group for
moral and spiritual input. You could euthanize TB today or let the
veterinary try every technique known to man ... yet you would still be the
target of cruel critique from someone. Your decision is not one that can be
made in committee.

God Bless.

"NateB323" wrote in message
...

Thank you for all of your support and opinions. However, there is no
need to highjack this post and make it another battle ground for people
who dislike each other. I am stressed out enough, I don't need you guys
fighting here. I went to the vet and talked to her today. I also got
to be with TB for over an hour. He looked so much better from the
drip, but I know if I just took him home, he would probably go right
back. He will not eat at the vet, he never has, and they don't do
feeding tubes through the nose, so I syringe fed him there tonight. He
took it well, and did not vomit or even act like he was going to. He
wanted to go home so bad though, I could tell. Everytime I stood up,
he started purring and stood up too. This is the hardest decision I
have ever made...I know if I bring him home and continue the regular
treatment, he'll go downhill and probably die within a month or less.
The thing that is most worisome is this "lobulated fluid structure"
that is around his galbladder. This could be the cause of his very
high white blood cell count. If he didn't have this structure, I would
not even consider the surgery and hope for the best. But, since this
structure is getting more "extensive" I'm afraid of what it could do.
To make matters worse, I am taking serious flak from my fiance. If it
were up to her, she would put him down, hell, she would have put him
down long ago...she just doesn't understand. Its causing problems
right now...this whole situation just plain sucks!

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"NateB323" wrote in message
...

.. She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep
and
adopt a healthy cat.

Sorry for veering off topic but these days all I adopt is sick cats. I
figure anyone can adopt a healthy cat, but who's going to take the matted up
long hairs, the one with the paralilized valve in his wind pipe, and all the
FIV strays?

ron
my vet's best customer



The best advice I can give is listen to your vet, who knows your cat, and
don't heed bad advice from crazies on the internet.

Hugs,

CatNipped

"Ron Herfurth" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"NateB323" wrote in message
...

. She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep
and
adopt a healthy cat.

Sorry for veering off topic but these days all I adopt is sick cats. I
figure anyone can adopt a healthy cat, but who's going to take the matted
up
long hairs, the one with the paralilized valve in his wind pipe, and all
the
FIV strays?


Bless you, Ron.

CatNipped wrote:

I can't help with this decision, but to counter what one idiot*
(cough*Lyn*cough) posted - my 15-year-old went through *THREE* surgeries
within three weeks and she did just fine.

READ FOR COMPREHENSION, Dearie, read for comprehension. What part of
"No way would I put a 15 year old cat that is that sick through
surgery," do you NOT understand?

Was your cat wasted away?

Was your cat so sick she could not stand/walk?

Was your cat's blodwork all out of whack?

No?

Well, then, it is not the same situation at all, is it?



*This particular idiot told another idiot that he was right to return his
cat to a kill shelter because of a chest cold.

I said he did exactly what he was supposed to do when he felt unable to
help the cat further - per the shelter's policy. Anyone who works at a
shelter will tell you the same thing. The reasons are multi-fold not
all of which have to do with the cat, but of course you are much too
wrapped up in histronics to realize this.

She also said that you
shouldn't adopt a handicapped cat and it is better to put them to sleep and
adopt a healthy cat.

Again, read for comprehension. When you adopt a cat you sentance
another cat to death. I said in no way could *I* sentance a healthy
cat to death when a sick cat or a cat with behavioral problems lived.
No way. I also said bless anyone who does adopt them, but "a cat is a
cat" so it does not matter *which* cat you adopt - another will die. I
would much rather the ill cat die than a healthy cat.

I also said that from a shelter's point of view, *they* would much
rather place a health cat because a healthy cat is much more likely to
remain in the placement and not be returned. For every cat returned,
it or another dies. So if you adopt a sick cat and return it, you
cause the death of *two* cats, not one.

But of course I explained this all already ONCE, but you didn't
comprehend it the first time. You, of course, think you know better.
YOU, "Ms. self-admitted ADHD", who has absolutley *no* experience in
animal welfare, no experience working for a shelter nor in veterinary
medicine.

I, OTOH, have done all three - having worked in animal welfare, in
shelters, and rescue for 17+ years, and as a vet tech for a high-volume
feline-specialty hospital.

But of course, *you* know better. shaking head



The best advice I can give is listen to your vet, who knows your cat, and
don't heed bad advice from crazies on the internet.

Yes, especially "crazies" with an incessant need for attention, toting
curling irons.

-L.

NateB323 wrote:
Thank you for all of your support and opinions. However, there is no
need to highjack this post and make it another battle ground for people
who dislike each other. I am stressed out enough, I don't need you guys
fighting here. I went to the vet and talked to her today. I also got
to be with TB for over an hour. He looked so much better from the
drip, but I know if I just took him home, he would probably go right
back. He will not eat at the vet, he never has, and they don't do
feeding tubes through the nose, so I syringe fed him there tonight. He
took it well, and did not vomit or even act like he was going to. He
wanted to go home so bad though, I could tell. Everytime I stood up,
he started purring and stood up too. This is the hardest decision I
have ever made...I know if I bring him home and continue the regular
treatment, he'll go downhill and probably die within a month or less.
The thing that is most worisome is this "lobulated fluid structure"
that is around his galbladder. This could be the cause of his very
high white blood cell count. If he didn't have this structure, I would
not even consider the surgery and hope for the best. But, since this
structure is getting more "extensive" I'm afraid of what it could do.
To make matters worse, I am taking serious flak from my fiance. If it
were up to her, she would put him down, hell, she would have put him
down long ago...she just doesn't understand. Its causing problems
right now...this whole situation just plain sucks!

I am so sorry, Nate, that you are going through this, and that your
fiance isn't being supportive. I hope you can find some peace in
whatever decision you make. This is the hardest part of being a pet
guardian.

I think you have to ask yourself a few tough questions...

1. If I choose surgery and the cat doesn't make it through the surgery,
how will I feel?

2. If I choose surgery and the cat is worse off afterward, how will I
feel?

3. If I choose not to select surgery, will I regret not making that
choice, if and when the cat gets more sick or dies?

Of course if you choose surgery and the cat gets better, you will have
no second-guessing to do.

If and when you are at the place where you might consider euthanasia,
this site might help you decide if and when the time is right:

http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com...edecision.html

My heart goes out to you,

-L.