Indoor cat..quality of life?

"GAUBSTER2" wrote in message
...
From: "Jeannie"

The statistics show that an indoor cat lives much longer than an
outdoor one because of the dangers of living outdoors.

Well, no they don't,

Well, yes they do.

98% of all statistics are made up :-)

Statistics can be made to prove anything.

That's why you need to look at "peer published research"! Don't be so
cynical.

87.5% of peer published researchers are cynics..so...

Jeannie





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"Jeannie" wrote

Here we go again with this old chestnut.....Whether you do or do not let
your cat out is not a situation where the "one size fits all" rule applies.
In my opinion, if you live in a city...it's probably best to keep the cat
inside, if one of your cats has already been killed by coyotes...probably
not such a good idea to let another cat roam, if you live somewhere more
rural, assess the dangers and make a decision based on your own situation.

Jeannie

And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out *anywhere*
regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything* that
happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable.

"Jeannie" wrote

Here we go again with this old chestnut.....Whether you do or do not let
your cat out is not a situation where the "one size fits all" rule applies.
In my opinion, if you live in a city...it's probably best to keep the cat
inside, if one of your cats has already been killed by coyotes...probably
not such a good idea to let another cat roam, if you live somewhere more
rural, assess the dangers and make a decision based on your own situation.

Jeannie

And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out *anywhere*
regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything* that
happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable.

"Mary" wrote in message
. ..

And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out
*anywhere*
regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything*
that
happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable.


Cat's aren't 100% safe indoors either.
What I find strange is people saying you must keep your cat indoors
and finding out those same people have have cats die indoors , their
dogs have killed them or have died in a fire . I wonder how many cats
have escaped and panicked and never been seen again.
Alison

"Mary" wrote in message
. ..

And none of this changes the fact that when you let them out
*anywhere*
regardless of where you live, you are exposing them to *anything*
that
happens to be out there. It's a simple fact. Irrefutable.


Cat's aren't 100% safe indoors either.
What I find strange is people saying you must keep your cat indoors
and finding out those same people have have cats die indoors , their
dogs have killed them or have died in a fire . I wonder how many cats
have escaped and panicked and never been seen again.
Alison

"Luvskats00" wrote in message
...
This subject is a parallel to a music newsgroup post asking whether
it was The
Beatles, Elvis or The Rolling Stones who were the greatest.

The Beatles, of course!

Those in the UK feel it's ok to let a cat wander about. Those in
the
US..experts...the majority of pet people, etc..feel is it best to
keep the cat
inside.

Not every one in the UK lets their cat out , but perhaps the majority
do.

If the majority of people feel its best to keep their pet inside
then they should do so , but this Keep Your Cat indoors campaign, puts
tremendous pressure on people and make them feel guilty for letting
them out even for a short while . I understand the motives of vets for
wanting to keep cats indoors as they see the cats that have been hit
by cars but the bird socities , I doubt their motives. They're not
concern about people's cats, they don't even want cats to have garden
access. They're concern about birds and some of their "facts " are a
bit dodgy. Thye RSPB in the UK says that cats aren't responsible for
the decline of sparrows, at least they're honest . It was fashionable
to blame the cats for bird and mammel decline thanks to the mammel
society but this year they're blaming the TV garden makeover show
encouraging people to put decking in their gardens instead of lawns
etc

Some people only seem to be concerned about the birds when it comes
to the indoor/outdoor cat argument, hand sup here how many peopel
drive gas guzzling SUVs that pollute the atmosphere and destoy the
flies and insects that the birds need to survuive and feed their
babies on.


Frankly, there have been a high number of posts from people who
mourned a pet
who died outside from: a car..poisons..wild animals..dogs..and a
significant
number of posts from those who lost cats (outside cats never
returned home).
Quotes and references have been posted time and time and time and
time again.
Animal Planet's "Emergency Vets", a very long running show, has
aired the
tragic death of cats (due to reasons above) almost every episode..

Are we likely to hear from people who let their cats out and have
never had a problem? On this group and some other mainly US groups ,
people get flamed for just mentioning they let their cat out .
I would advise any one who lets their cat out to have it
microchipped, more cats would be returned if they were. Maybe they
were taken to animal control by people who believe that any cat let
out must have a bad owner, I've seen posts telling people to do this.
Indoor cats escape and panic and are never seen again


In the mid 1970's - before I knew better - I had my cat go
in/outdoors..He was
hit by a car. I lived in a very quiet residential neighborhood.
Thankfully, he
survived.

I've had indoor/outdoor cat my whole life, they were always kept in
at night. I've never had a cat die or get lost. They all lived well in
their teens. Kim, my present cat is about 5/6y .


If one wants to gamble with his/her life..who cares...but don't
gamble with
your pets' lives.

Cats aren't 100% safe indoors either. What percentage of indoor cats
do you reckon end up in shelters and PTS or dumped somewhere? I
expect there are many people in both countries that let their cat out
and don't care about it , they don't bother to speuter/vaccinate etc
but you can't judge all indoor/outdoor cat owners by them.


Alison

"Luvskats00" wrote in message
...
This subject is a parallel to a music newsgroup post asking whether
it was The
Beatles, Elvis or The Rolling Stones who were the greatest.

The Beatles, of course!

Those in the UK feel it's ok to let a cat wander about. Those in
the
US..experts...the majority of pet people, etc..feel is it best to
keep the cat
inside.

Not every one in the UK lets their cat out , but perhaps the majority
do.

If the majority of people feel its best to keep their pet inside
then they should do so , but this Keep Your Cat indoors campaign, puts
tremendous pressure on people and make them feel guilty for letting
them out even for a short while . I understand the motives of vets for
wanting to keep cats indoors as they see the cats that have been hit
by cars but the bird socities , I doubt their motives. They're not
concern about people's cats, they don't even want cats to have garden
access. They're concern about birds and some of their "facts " are a
bit dodgy. Thye RSPB in the UK says that cats aren't responsible for
the decline of sparrows, at least they're honest . It was fashionable
to blame the cats for bird and mammel decline thanks to the mammel
society but this year they're blaming the TV garden makeover show
encouraging people to put decking in their gardens instead of lawns
etc

Some people only seem to be concerned about the birds when it comes
to the indoor/outdoor cat argument, hand sup here how many peopel
drive gas guzzling SUVs that pollute the atmosphere and destoy the
flies and insects that the birds need to survuive and feed their
babies on.


Frankly, there have been a high number of posts from people who
mourned a pet
who died outside from: a car..poisons..wild animals..dogs..and a
significant
number of posts from those who lost cats (outside cats never
returned home).
Quotes and references have been posted time and time and time and
time again.
Animal Planet's "Emergency Vets", a very long running show, has
aired the
tragic death of cats (due to reasons above) almost every episode..

Are we likely to hear from people who let their cats out and have
never had a problem? On this group and some other mainly US groups ,
people get flamed for just mentioning they let their cat out .
I would advise any one who lets their cat out to have it
microchipped, more cats would be returned if they were. Maybe they
were taken to animal control by people who believe that any cat let
out must have a bad owner, I've seen posts telling people to do this.
Indoor cats escape and panic and are never seen again


In the mid 1970's - before I knew better - I had my cat go
in/outdoors..He was
hit by a car. I lived in a very quiet residential neighborhood.
Thankfully, he
survived.

I've had indoor/outdoor cat my whole life, they were always kept in
at night. I've never had a cat die or get lost. They all lived well in
their teens. Kim, my present cat is about 5/6y .


If one wants to gamble with his/her life..who cares...but don't
gamble with
your pets' lives.

Cats aren't 100% safe indoors either. What percentage of indoor cats
do you reckon end up in shelters and PTS or dumped somewhere? I
expect there are many people in both countries that let their cat out
and don't care about it , they don't bother to speuter/vaccinate etc
but you can't judge all indoor/outdoor cat owners by them.


Alison

"Jeannie" wrote in message
...


I think you mean this one, attributed to Benjamin Disraeli....

"There are three kinds of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics."

Jeannie


That's the one. He had a point!
Alison

"Jeannie" wrote in message
...


I think you mean this one, attributed to Benjamin Disraeli....

"There are three kinds of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics."

Jeannie


That's the one. He had a point!
Alison

"Phil P." wrote in message ...
"Steve G" wrote in message
om...
(...)

no reliable statistics that detail the longevity of indoor and outdoor
cats.


Sure there are! There have been several major studies spanning almost 50
years, conducted in different parts of the country, published in
peer-reviewed veterinary medical and behavior journals and texts,
(...)

Feel free toprovide a cite to prove me wrong though...

"A cite"? How about three?

Before I deal with (two of) these, bear in mind the issue at hand, re.
my statement '[there are] no reliable statistics that detail the
longevity of indoor and outdoor cats.'

And now, to the grindstone:


Kolata RJ, Kraut NH, Johnston DE,
Patterns of trauma in urban dogs and cats: a study of 1,000
cases. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1974 Mar 1;164(5):499-502

Precis: Kolata et al. categorised the injuries sustained to 1000
dogs+cats (129 cats, 871 dogs) admitted to the University of
Pennsylvania Vet Hospital, during a one year period. (There were 7,803
admissions during the period studied, of which 1,000 were admissions
due to trauma).

First point - the authors make *no statement whatsoever about the
relative longevities of indoor versus outdoor cats*, and provide *no
data whotsoever concerning the overall risk of trauma in outdoor
cats*. They cannot (could not) do so because they cite no statistics
on the number of cats *not* taken to the vet hospital (i.e., baseline
cat ownership data). The data they supply simply provide an aetiology
of traumatic events.

Note also that cats were relatively under-represented (cf. dogs) in
traumatic events, although this difference was not tested
statistically. Also, of the 129 cats considered, ZERO were damaged by
a weapon, and 1 showed evidence of abuse. Falls, vehicles and other
animals accounted for nearly half of the traumatic events. Of the
injured animals, approximately one in six died from their injuries.
The animals admitted tended to be young (median 1.3ys for the cats).

This is all moderately interesting, but without a knowledge of the
proportion of cats actually admitted, we simply do not know the
proportionate risk of injury for the indoor-outdoor cat. We might
reasonably suggest that young animals are disproportionately at risk.


Childs JE, Ross L,
Urban cats: characteristics and estimation of mortality due to motor
vehicles. Am J Vet Res 1986 Jul;47(7):1643-8)

The Childs et al. study is very similar to that of Kolata et al.,
except that the former took place within the city limits of Baltimore,
with the number of dead cats collected by animal control being logged
over a 3-year period.

Of the dead cats, the authors estimate that c. 20% were once owned
(although they had no way of knowing if these cats were lost, or
whether their owners had turned them out onto the streets on purpose).
90% of the cats were not neutered.

The authors do provide a rather crude (as they themselves admit)
guesstimate of the mortality probability in owned, free-ranging cats.
The figure they suggest is 8.7% (this implies a mortality probability
of less than 1% of neutered, owned cats).

Once again, note that the paper provides no clear data on the
longevity of indoor versus outdoor cats.

To add some non-UScentric data, Rochlitz (2003a,b; Vet Rec 153:
549-553, 585-588) did more of the same, albeit in the UK, and with
more sophisticated methodology.

In the studies, it was found that age was by far the best predictor of
RTA injury, with gender and pedigree status following close behind.
Basically, young, male, non-pedigree cats were at greatest risk
(proportionately - these statistics take into account the a priori
probabilities of being in each respective category).

Note that better than 40% of the owned cats surveyed were 10 years of
age or older. Hardly seems that the cats were kicking the bucket at
the 3-5 years the indoor-advocates often suggest. Indeed, the median
age of surveyed, owned cats was 7 years. I wonder how this compares to
the US?

And some grist for the mill on the purebred debate (Rochlitz 2003a,
pp. 552). Regarding why pedigree cats are relatively underrepresented
in RTA statistics:

'Pedigree cats may have behavioural characteristics that reduce their
risk of being in a road accident. (...) Turner (2000) found that their
owners interacted for longer periods with the pedigree cats , and that
the pedigree cats spent more time close to their owners.'

Just for fun, y'understand.


Keep in mind, urbanization with more people living in cities with their
cats, and the number of motor vehicles have increased dramatically since
1956, 1974, and 1986. Therefore, these studies grossly underestimate the
current mortality rate and overestimate the life expectancy of outdoor cats
in the 21st century --- and they will only get *worse*.

Lest you think I'm dismissing RTAs entirely, I absolutely accept that
road traffic is a risk for outdoor-access cats, and this risk may well
be too great to justify outdoor-access in some areas.



"Free ranging cats in the United States have an average lifespan in the
general population of only 3 to 5 years; indoor cats have an average
lifespan of 12 years and frequently live longer than 20 years "
Karen L. Overall, M.A., V.M.D., Ph.D.

And does Karen L. Overall have a cite for this contention, or is it
just bit of airy handwaving? Does she speak of owned, indoor-outdoor
cats? Does she include strays in her 'statistic'?


Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behavior

Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine University of
Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, In: Epidemiology; Chap 2, pg 5,
Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals; 1997, Mosby ISBN
0-8016-6820-4. (Dr. Overall's statement is also supported by the above
cited studies)

It absolutely is *not*. I suggest you read the papers before making
contentions that are not supported by them. Neither of the papers
above provide any estimates of lifespan, and the data could not
support such estimates. The only way you could extract that 3-5year
'statistic' would involve smoke, mirrors, and sacrificing a goat or
three.



"The average lifespan of an indoor cat is around twelve to fourteen years,
.while outdoor cats are lucky to reach double digits."
(Excerpted from The Cat Who Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New
York).

That's ****in' scientific, too. Any cites, Mr Dodman?


(...)

Q.E.D.

Not if one actually reads the papers cited. I suggest you try it.

Steve.