Indoor cat..quality of life?

You, however, know what they are likely to encounter outside.
Here in the States, we have a lot of natural predators in many rural areas
and plenty of dogs, cars, and mean-ass people in urban areas. There are very,

very few places where a cat can go out, free from any danger that isn't also
present in the home. Natural dangers aside from predators include other
aggressive cats and dogs, falling, poisoning, and so on.
If I live somewhere where I know all my neighbors, their pets, am nowhere
near a road, much less a busy one, and so on, the danger of my cat being
injured outside approaches the chance of her getting hurt just from something

happening inside, like falling off the cat tree when she's wrestling with the

other cats, finding a button in the floor and choking on it, and so on. If I
lived somewhere like that, I'd let mine out, too.

Good post, Kaeli. Another point is, around here, "roaming" is a bit of a
misnomer. They actually never leave the immediate area. I can control the
pesticide/poison issue, and I can control when and how long they go out. Nobody
goes out late even though I've never seen a coyote in the daytime. The only
injury we've had requiring a vet was Bootsie swallowing a fish hook in the
garage. My carelessness. Well, here's a pic of my house. It's a wonder we
aren't all dead already just from sheer boredom. There's just not much that
goes on here, dangerous or otherwise.
http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/house.jpg
We get dumped cats occasionally, but never a dumped-off dog. I think the people
who dump the cats know me and just let them out here on purpose.

Sherry

"Alison" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
m...

Don't do the right thing. Do what you want. Because you can. It
got the
British Empire pretty far.

Ahh, now who is assuming? You assume I am American
just because I love here? You live here too. And lots of
Brits who do have dropped their native spelling
conventions. You also assume that I mention the British
because I am xenophobic. Not true. I am merely a student
of history. I find British history very enlightening with regard
to the topic of the abuse and misuse of power. And I must
say that if any nation were to inspire fear in me, it would
most certainly not be England.

ROTFLMAO, What ever you are, I doubt you're British, you seem totally
unaware of the irony of your statement. No Brit would be so clueless.

Alison


It didn't work for Steve and it won't work for you, Duckie.
Refute the argument, or concede.

"Alison" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message
m...

Don't do the right thing. Do what you want. Because you can. It
got the
British Empire pretty far.

Ahh, now who is assuming? You assume I am American
just because I love here? You live here too. And lots of
Brits who do have dropped their native spelling
conventions. You also assume that I mention the British
because I am xenophobic. Not true. I am merely a student
of history. I find British history very enlightening with regard
to the topic of the abuse and misuse of power. And I must
say that if any nation were to inspire fear in me, it would
most certainly not be England.

ROTFLMAO, What ever you are, I doubt you're British, you seem totally
unaware of the irony of your statement. No Brit would be so clueless.

Alison


It didn't work for Steve and it won't work for you, Duckie.
Refute the argument, or concede.

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...

Your neighbor certainly gambled with the life and safety of his
cat. When you let them roam, they are at the mercy of whatever
is outside. Since you cannot control what is outside, you cannot
control what they will encounter. Therefore they are not safe.


You, however, know what they are likely to encounter outside.
Here in the States, we have a lot of natural predators in many rural areas
and plenty of dogs, cars, and mean-ass people in urban areas. There are
very,
very few places where a cat can go out, free from any danger that isn't
also
present in the home. Natural dangers aside from predators include other
aggressive cats and dogs, falling, poisoning, and so on.
If I live somewhere where I know all my neighbors, their pets, am nowhere
near a road, much less a busy one, and so on, the danger of my cat being
injured outside approaches the chance of her getting hurt just from
something
happening inside, like falling off the cat tree when she's wrestling with
the
other cats, finding a button in the floor and choking on it, and so on. If
I
lived somewhere like that, I'd let mine out, too. The problem is that
there
really aren't too many of those places left here in the States. The UK,
however, has no predators aside from cats and dogs, and if you know all
your
neighbors (and they're cool with your cat) and you know that your cat is
cool
with the other animals, nothing horrible is very likely to happen. The
chance
of it is about the same as the chance of the cat dying from ingesting a
shoelace inside the home.

Do you pick up *everything* that your cats could possibly ingest that
could
kill them? If one of them decided to eat your shoe for fun, are you then
responsible for "gambling with the safety" of your cat for not putting
your
shoe in the closet? If it's a kitten, you do have some measure of
responsibility to keep harmful objects out of reach, but you have to draw
the
line somewhere. I don't pick up every darn thing in a home with my adult
pets.

There's a chance your cat will be injured from something you could have
prevented, whether they go out or not. This is just life. Letting a cat
out
when you live in New York City is irresponsible and deplorable, as far as
I'm
concerned, but in some rural area in the UK? There's really very little
there
to hurt them. They all let their cats out there and the vast majority of
them
live to ripe old ages with none of the behavior problems we see so often
here.


"You can argue the merits of Kitty running free, wind in his fur, dirt
under
his paws, and other horse**** all you want. The fact is, when you let
them roam they are at the mercy of whatever is out there. You cannot
control what is out there. Therefore you cannot know what will happen
to your cats. If that's okay with you, then I just really hope it's okay
with
everyone and everything else out there. They may be many things out
there--
but they are not safe. Arguing that they are is arguing against simple
fact."

Refute it. Based upon simple logic. Present a valid argument that
disproves it. I'm all ear.s


No one is refuting the fact that unsafe things are outside. They are
refuting
the assumption behind it - that being at the mercy of "whatever is out
there" is always the same amount of risk.

I didn't say that.

"kaeli" wrote in message
...
In article ,
enlightened us with...

Your neighbor certainly gambled with the life and safety of his
cat. When you let them roam, they are at the mercy of whatever
is outside. Since you cannot control what is outside, you cannot
control what they will encounter. Therefore they are not safe.


You, however, know what they are likely to encounter outside.
Here in the States, we have a lot of natural predators in many rural areas
and plenty of dogs, cars, and mean-ass people in urban areas. There are
very,
very few places where a cat can go out, free from any danger that isn't
also
present in the home. Natural dangers aside from predators include other
aggressive cats and dogs, falling, poisoning, and so on.
If I live somewhere where I know all my neighbors, their pets, am nowhere
near a road, much less a busy one, and so on, the danger of my cat being
injured outside approaches the chance of her getting hurt just from
something
happening inside, like falling off the cat tree when she's wrestling with
the
other cats, finding a button in the floor and choking on it, and so on. If
I
lived somewhere like that, I'd let mine out, too. The problem is that
there
really aren't too many of those places left here in the States. The UK,
however, has no predators aside from cats and dogs, and if you know all
your
neighbors (and they're cool with your cat) and you know that your cat is
cool
with the other animals, nothing horrible is very likely to happen. The
chance
of it is about the same as the chance of the cat dying from ingesting a
shoelace inside the home.

Do you pick up *everything* that your cats could possibly ingest that
could
kill them? If one of them decided to eat your shoe for fun, are you then
responsible for "gambling with the safety" of your cat for not putting
your
shoe in the closet? If it's a kitten, you do have some measure of
responsibility to keep harmful objects out of reach, but you have to draw
the
line somewhere. I don't pick up every darn thing in a home with my adult
pets.

There's a chance your cat will be injured from something you could have
prevented, whether they go out or not. This is just life. Letting a cat
out
when you live in New York City is irresponsible and deplorable, as far as
I'm
concerned, but in some rural area in the UK? There's really very little
there
to hurt them. They all let their cats out there and the vast majority of
them
live to ripe old ages with none of the behavior problems we see so often
here.


"You can argue the merits of Kitty running free, wind in his fur, dirt
under
his paws, and other horse**** all you want. The fact is, when you let
them roam they are at the mercy of whatever is out there. You cannot
control what is out there. Therefore you cannot know what will happen
to your cats. If that's okay with you, then I just really hope it's okay
with
everyone and everything else out there. They may be many things out
there--
but they are not safe. Arguing that they are is arguing against simple
fact."

Refute it. Based upon simple logic. Present a valid argument that
disproves it. I'm all ear.s


No one is refuting the fact that unsafe things are outside. They are
refuting
the assumption behind it - that being at the mercy of "whatever is out
there" is always the same amount of risk.

I didn't say that.

"Sherry " wrote in message
...
You, however, know what they are likely to encounter outside.
Here in the States, we have a lot of natural predators in many rural
areas
and plenty of dogs, cars, and mean-ass people in urban areas. There are
very,

very few places where a cat can go out, free from any danger that isn't
also
present in the home. Natural dangers aside from predators include other
aggressive cats and dogs, falling, poisoning, and so on.
If I live somewhere where I know all my neighbors, their pets, am nowhere
near a road, much less a busy one, and so on, the danger of my cat being
injured outside approaches the chance of her getting hurt just from
something

happening inside, like falling off the cat tree when she's wrestling with
the

other cats, finding a button in the floor and choking on it, and so on.
If I
lived somewhere like that, I'd let mine out, too.

Good post, Kaeli.

It really was.

Another point is, around here, "roaming" is a bit of a
misnomer. They actually never leave the immediate area. I can control the
pesticide/poison issue, and I can control when and how long they go out.
Nobody
goes out late even though I've never seen a coyote in the daytime. The
only
injury we've had requiring a vet was Bootsie swallowing a fish hook in the
garage. My carelessness. Well, here's a pic of my house. It's a wonder we
aren't all dead already just from sheer boredom. There's just not much
that
goes on here, dangerous or otherwise.
http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/house.jpg
We get dumped cats occasionally, but never a dumped-off dog. I think the
people
who dump the cats know me and just let them out here on purpose.

Sherry


You animals are still safer in the house. My entire argument rests
on whether they are safer indoors than out. They *are* safer indoors.
I have never had a cat eat anything weird that required a vet visit. The
notion
of fire scares me to death, but chances of that are slim compared with
chances
of injury via animal, car or poison out of doors. I never once said that
everyone should keep their cats indoors. The thread devolved into that
because Steve G.--who does indeed allow his cat out in a busy urban
area--could not refute the argument that they are safer indoors simply
because we have greater control over the indoors than the outdoors.
The issue of probability vs possibility is interesting in the way kaeli
presented
it, but is still beside the point. I imagine a button or a fire might take
out my indoor cats, but I know for sure that your cats, while they
are outside, are much more likely to encounter a host of things my
cats cannot encounter inside. Including motorized vehicals, other
animals, and humans not theirs. Leaving out insects and the
diseases borne by them. That is all I was saying. The lame
attempts at evasion and rationalization made by Steve, Jeannie,
and Alison aside.

You and they will do what you want to with your cats just as
you should. But I will indeed be more certain of the safety of
mine while they are inside than you or *anyone* will be when
theirs are outside. For me, safety is paramount. I suspect that
the joy of being outdoors is overrated in the minds of some of
the "philosophers" who feel cats MUST be outside to be happy.
I think as long as the cats have lots of play, fun, affection, food
and comfort, they are perfectly happy indoors. And they are safe.

"Sherry " wrote in message
...
You, however, know what they are likely to encounter outside.
Here in the States, we have a lot of natural predators in many rural
areas
and plenty of dogs, cars, and mean-ass people in urban areas. There are
very,

very few places where a cat can go out, free from any danger that isn't
also
present in the home. Natural dangers aside from predators include other
aggressive cats and dogs, falling, poisoning, and so on.
If I live somewhere where I know all my neighbors, their pets, am nowhere
near a road, much less a busy one, and so on, the danger of my cat being
injured outside approaches the chance of her getting hurt just from
something

happening inside, like falling off the cat tree when she's wrestling with
the

other cats, finding a button in the floor and choking on it, and so on.
If I
lived somewhere like that, I'd let mine out, too.

Good post, Kaeli.

It really was.

Another point is, around here, "roaming" is a bit of a
misnomer. They actually never leave the immediate area. I can control the
pesticide/poison issue, and I can control when and how long they go out.
Nobody
goes out late even though I've never seen a coyote in the daytime. The
only
injury we've had requiring a vet was Bootsie swallowing a fish hook in the
garage. My carelessness. Well, here's a pic of my house. It's a wonder we
aren't all dead already just from sheer boredom. There's just not much
that
goes on here, dangerous or otherwise.
http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/house.jpg
We get dumped cats occasionally, but never a dumped-off dog. I think the
people
who dump the cats know me and just let them out here on purpose.

Sherry


You animals are still safer in the house. My entire argument rests
on whether they are safer indoors than out. They *are* safer indoors.
I have never had a cat eat anything weird that required a vet visit. The
notion
of fire scares me to death, but chances of that are slim compared with
chances
of injury via animal, car or poison out of doors. I never once said that
everyone should keep their cats indoors. The thread devolved into that
because Steve G.--who does indeed allow his cat out in a busy urban
area--could not refute the argument that they are safer indoors simply
because we have greater control over the indoors than the outdoors.
The issue of probability vs possibility is interesting in the way kaeli
presented
it, but is still beside the point. I imagine a button or a fire might take
out my indoor cats, but I know for sure that your cats, while they
are outside, are much more likely to encounter a host of things my
cats cannot encounter inside. Including motorized vehicals, other
animals, and humans not theirs. Leaving out insects and the
diseases borne by them. That is all I was saying. The lame
attempts at evasion and rationalization made by Steve, Jeannie,
and Alison aside.

You and they will do what you want to with your cats just as
you should. But I will indeed be more certain of the safety of
mine while they are inside than you or *anyone* will be when
theirs are outside. For me, safety is paramount. I suspect that
the joy of being outdoors is overrated in the minds of some of
the "philosophers" who feel cats MUST be outside to be happy.
I think as long as the cats have lots of play, fun, affection, food
and comfort, they are perfectly happy indoors. And they are safe.

You animals are still safer in the house. My entire argument rests
on whether they are safer indoors than out. They *are* safer indoors.
I have never had a cat eat anything weird that required a vet visit. The
notion
of fire scares me to death, but chances of that are slim compared with
chances
of injury via animal, car or poison out of doors. I never once said that
everyone should keep their cats indoors. The thread devolved into that
because Steve G.--who does indeed allow his cat out in a busy urban
area--could not refute the argument that they are safer indoors simply
because we have greater control over the indoors than the outdoors.
The issue of probability vs possibility is interesting in the way kaeli
presented
it, but is still beside the point. I imagine a button or a fire might take
out my indoor cats, but I know for sure that your cats, while they
are outside, are much more likely to encounter a host of things my
cats cannot encounter inside. Including motorized vehicals, other
animals, and humans not theirs. Leaving out insects and the
diseases borne by them. That is all I was saying. The lame
attempts at evasion and rationalization made by Steve, Jeannie,
and Alison aside.

You and they will do what you want to with your cats just as
you should. But I will indeed be more certain of the safety of
mine while they are inside than you or *anyone* will be when
theirs are outside. For me, safety is paramount. I suspect that
the joy of being outdoors is overrated in the minds of some of
the "philosophers" who feel cats MUST be outside to be happy.
I think as long as the cats have lots of play, fun, affection, food
and comfort, they are perfectly happy indoors. And they are safe.

I don't agree with the camp who say all cats "must" go outside. I do believe
there are benefits. I can't help believing sunshine and fresh benefit a cat's
mental state, they do ours, for sure. And there's no question that the more
exercise they, or we, get, the better off we are.
Those things can be replicated indoors if the owner is conscientious enough.
Bottom line is, cats get hurt, and cats get sick. A lot of times it's sheerly
from owner carelessness. Cats hang themselves on miniblind cords, get shut up
in dryers, chew on electric cords, choke on string or buttons, die in fires.
They also get run over, torn up by dogs, poisoned and exposed to deadly
disease.
You just gotta do whatever you can to control what you can. If you can't
control the outdoor environment enough to reduce the risks to a reasonable,
acceptable level, by all means, keep them in. I don't have a problem at all
with indoor cats as long as we're not talking about a lone, single cat alone
all day in a dark, dank apartment. Which IMO borders on abuse as much as
letting them roam.

Sherry

You animals are still safer in the house. My entire argument rests
on whether they are safer indoors than out. They *are* safer indoors.
I have never had a cat eat anything weird that required a vet visit. The
notion
of fire scares me to death, but chances of that are slim compared with
chances
of injury via animal, car or poison out of doors. I never once said that
everyone should keep their cats indoors. The thread devolved into that
because Steve G.--who does indeed allow his cat out in a busy urban
area--could not refute the argument that they are safer indoors simply
because we have greater control over the indoors than the outdoors.
The issue of probability vs possibility is interesting in the way kaeli
presented
it, but is still beside the point. I imagine a button or a fire might take
out my indoor cats, but I know for sure that your cats, while they
are outside, are much more likely to encounter a host of things my
cats cannot encounter inside. Including motorized vehicals, other
animals, and humans not theirs. Leaving out insects and the
diseases borne by them. That is all I was saying. The lame
attempts at evasion and rationalization made by Steve, Jeannie,
and Alison aside.

You and they will do what you want to with your cats just as
you should. But I will indeed be more certain of the safety of
mine while they are inside than you or *anyone* will be when
theirs are outside. For me, safety is paramount. I suspect that
the joy of being outdoors is overrated in the minds of some of
the "philosophers" who feel cats MUST be outside to be happy.
I think as long as the cats have lots of play, fun, affection, food
and comfort, they are perfectly happy indoors. And they are safe.

I don't agree with the camp who say all cats "must" go outside. I do believe
there are benefits. I can't help believing sunshine and fresh benefit a cat's
mental state, they do ours, for sure. And there's no question that the more
exercise they, or we, get, the better off we are.
Those things can be replicated indoors if the owner is conscientious enough.
Bottom line is, cats get hurt, and cats get sick. A lot of times it's sheerly
from owner carelessness. Cats hang themselves on miniblind cords, get shut up
in dryers, chew on electric cords, choke on string or buttons, die in fires.
They also get run over, torn up by dogs, poisoned and exposed to deadly
disease.
You just gotta do whatever you can to control what you can. If you can't
control the outdoor environment enough to reduce the risks to a reasonable,
acceptable level, by all means, keep them in. I don't have a problem at all
with indoor cats as long as we're not talking about a lone, single cat alone
all day in a dark, dank apartment. Which IMO borders on abuse as much as
letting them roam.

Sherry

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

An outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat -
e.g.,
territorial disputes, threats from other animals, people, cars,
environmental noises which cause panic - some of those situations
generate
pure fear.

Not always. It can be stressful for cats outside in some areas where
there is a high cat ratio but the same can be said for indoors cats.
This is what Tufts have to say and it also shows how the same facts
and evidence can be used to prove opposite views!

"The term stress is used by veterinarians to describe the mental and
physiological changes that occur in an animal when it perceives
something potentially threatening. The threat triggers a flood of
activity in the animal's autonomic nervous system--the portion of the
nervous system that controls involuntary body functions such as heart
rate, blood distribution, and respiration. The biological changes that
occur prepare the animal to either combat or escape the challenger.
For example, "the pupils dilate to admit as much visual information as
possible and tiny muscles in hair follicles contract, causing the
cat's fur to stand erect and make the animal look bigger and more
intimidating. Mood changes often accompany the physiological changes.
The animal may become extremely alert and behave aggressively toward
anything (or anyone) that approaches too near." (CATNIP newsletter,
Oct. 1995, a publication of Tufts University School of Veterinary
Medicine http://www.tufts.edu/vet) The stress response can be
life-saving to cats living in the wild, but the indoor cat rarely
needs the protective benefits of this physiological reaction. When the
stress is caused by a known foe (eg., another cat) and that challenge
has been met with either fight or flight, its fear subsides and its
bodily systems revert to their normal "unstressed" state. "But when a
cat can't recognize the source of its fear (for instance, random loud
noises from the construction workers next door) or can't avoid a
recurring source of fear (a resident feline bully), its fear can lead
to anxiety...the anxiety can become chronic (recurring or
continual)...Because an indoor housecat can neither flee nor confront
the source of its anxiety, it cannot easily relieve its stress. The
cat must either live with its stress-response or act out behaviors in
its stress-response repertoire to try to relieve the anxiety." (CATNIP
newsletter, Oct. 1995) A cat that is in a chronic state of anxiety
can experience health problems as well as behavioral changes. One
indication of stress is high concentrations of the corticosteroids
(hormones secreted by the adrenal gland) in the blood and/or urine,
particularly cortisol. If large amounts of the hormones persist in
reaction to chronic stressors, the result can be illness or even
death."


If your cat eliminates outdoors, how would you know if your cat was
developing a urinary tract obstruction, or had blood in his urine,
or
constipation or melena? Just curious.

Kim has a litter tray but she uses the garden too. The first time she
had cystitis, she was acting very unsettled and started doing small
wees on plastic so I knew something was wrong.
There is usually little warning before this stage and many people,
whether they keep cats in or let them go out, fail to recognise
their cat has something wrong with it and think it's being bad or
dirty.
Not everyone lets there cat out 24/7 and lots have litter trays but
not everybody. . It would be good if every cat owner provided them for
their cats
Alison