Phil P - what you recommend from Purina

Diane wrote:
In article . com,
" wrote:

I suspect that she is in fact "obese" although she looks normal and has
a bit of a waistline indenting. I weighed her on a more accurate scale
and she is actually 11 pounds. I think as a young adult, full-grown,
she used to weigh 7.5 pounds. If this is so and the scale was accurate,
then she is 40% over her ideal 7.5 weight at 11 pounds. That is "obese"
just based on percentages for almost any living creature.

If she has a waist, she's probably not obese. Have you asked your
veterinarian?
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She has some indentation but she also has a pouch so it's the same as
with a human to a degree where there's a big tummy falling over but the
back shows some indentation. Does she look obese, nope. But she does
not look thin with the sagging pouch or udder like a little black and
white cow. I will discuss this with a vet but if the vet were to
disagree without a solid and good reason then I would have to tell the
vet to check the latest scientific literature. Whether the cat is
"obese" or overweight are just metaphors. She has to lose weight or
else she will probably not live longer than her teens, like most pets
that are overweight. When I use the word "obese" - I am using it
technically here. Some people are 30% overweight and no one would think
they are obese, but they are. Some people don't put weight around their
tummies. It's safer that way since tummy weight is the biggest killer
if obese or not or so say the latest surveys on predicting death and
disease.

The main factor for death in humans and pets is overweight. With
adequate nutrition, underweight animals live far longer. See
wwww.walford.com for references about humans. The key is adequate
nutrition. This research started by the way in the vet labs,
interestingly enough.

It's strange. We overfeed because of affection and what else to do if
we can't play games but it's not good. Probably same things happens
with kiddies and why so many are fat here in the USA.

wrote:

I suspect that she is in fact "obese" although she looks normal and
has a bit of a waistline indenting. I weighed her on a more
accurate scale and she is actually 11 pounds. I think as a young
adult, full-grown, she used to weigh 7.5 pounds. If this is so and
the scale was accurate, then she is 40% over her ideal 7.5 weight
at 11 pounds. That is "obese" just based on percentages for almost
any living creature.


at 40% overweight, I think she'd look more like a bowling ball rather than
just having a bit of extra tummy. How do you know that 7.5 was really full-
grown? It's good that you're watching her diet, but I'm worried about 7.5
being a realistic goal.

Diane wrote:
In article .com,
" wrote:

I will discuss this with a vet but if the vet were to
disagree without a solid and good reason then I would have to tell the
vet to check the latest scientific literature.

My one veterinarian doesn't go by weight but appearance -- he doesn't go
by the, "7.5 pounds is the ideal weight," but whether the cat's weight
fits its size and frame. For me it's pretty easy to tell my cat's at a
good weight -- waist, bones aren't under layers of fat, etc. He does
have a pouch, but then most cats do, and his isn't fat. They've been
pretty happy with his weight (around 11) when I've taken him in.
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You misunderstood what I wrote. 7.5 pounds is the cat's original
weight, that's why it's ideal - for her! It's not a theoretical ideal.
That was her original weight. About appearances. I have seen many make
truly bad decisions about medicine because they went by appearances.
It's not always that easy but it's sure a lot easier for the so-called
doctor to spit out, oh, you look fine rather than do some real thinking
and investigating. In this case, appearances though may be all that's
necessary? Well it's not since I have the historical data at hand.

If we go by appearances, we are dealing with accepted community
standards - a little weight is not so bad, versus what's coming down in
science. If you want to extend life, lose the weight. If I were
ignorant about the science, I could just forget about all this. But
unfortunately, it's something I have followed for years. So it's not
really fair to my cat to cut short her life to the teens when I have
the info to perhaps extend her life into the twenties without too much
trouble. Since most people and most doctors are not familiar with the
scientific literature in this regard, I have to assume responsibilities
that I would prefer to leave to the "professionals."

To sum up, 7.5 pounds is her original weight. If she weighs 11 pounds,
then she is carrying extra weight.

Diane wrote:
In article .com,
" wrote:

That was her original weight.

My original weight was 9 and a half pounds, but even I wouldn't want to
get down to it.

So you weighed 9 1/2 pounds as an adult at 21? You're being silly.

I'm not sure why 7.5 is ideal because it was the cat's original weight.
What if her original weight had been 11? Would that be ideal?

If that were her adult healthy weight, then yes.

It's not that I misunderstood; I guess I just don't agree.

I don't understand why you have trouble here.

People have healthy adult weights.

So do cats.

When they exceed that weight, they are FAT.

How much do you weigh now compared to when you were 21?

Would you be unhealthy if you lost all that additional weight you have
gained over the years?

Unlikely.

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5cats wrote:
wrote:

I suspect that she is in fact "obese" although she looks normal and
has a bit of a waistline indenting. I weighed her on a more
accurate scale and she is actually 11 pounds. I think as a young
adult, full-grown, she used to weigh 7.5 pounds. If this is so and
the scale was accurate, then she is 40% over her ideal 7.5 weight
at 11 pounds. That is "obese" just based on percentages for almost
any living creature.


at 40% overweight, I think she'd look more like a bowling ball rather than
just having a bit of extra tummy. How do you know that 7.5 was really full-
grown? It's good that you're watching her diet, but I'm worried about 7.5
being a realistic goal.

I'm concerned but the science and the data are rather solid here.

The cat was a very healthy adult at 7 1/2 pounds.

I had to go away and left her with others with the strict instructions
to feed her 70 grams of Science Diet a day. The people were nice but
not too bright. They free fed her all she wanted to eat. She's a former
feral. That's just plain ignorant. It's too be expected, they are not
educated. Well, even educated people are stupid like that.

It's not unrealistic and too often in our culture people tell books by
their covers.

With myself, I went back to the weight I was at 21. I got very envious
comments from some nasty doctor about how she could not believe I had a
six-pack without exercising. Nasty woman. Bad, bad doctor.

In any event, I gained back 40 pounds, over 30% of my body weight for a
couple of years. I told people I had to lose it again. They sounded
incredulous. They thought I was too thin as it was.

So again, go by the facts not appearances or impressions. What works
for me works forme. It may not work for you. And all the comments I
receive are usually just plain wrong because they are hasty
generalizations.

About the cat, at least 2 people told me they thought she was too fat.

She really needs to lose a pound or two which is what I originally
said. I am not taking her back to 7.5 right away but I will after I
find a vet who knows and cares about cats and science. That is easier
said than done.

Diane wrote:
at 40% overweight, I think she'd look more like a bowling ball rather than
just having a bit of extra tummy. How do you know that 7.5 was really full-
grown? It's good that you're watching her diet, but I'm worried about 7.5
being a realistic goal.

Exactly! At 40 percent (obese), she'd look grotesque, which I take it is
not the case.

Nope, you're wrong here. It's not true with me and I doubt it's not
true with my cat. People go by appearances, and that's very wrong at
times. When doctors do it, they are being lazy.

It really depends on the body build. In any event, she is not going on
a diet to lose 40% of her weight. She is going to lose a pound or two
which is about 18% of her current weight. That is a good start and over
a year will allow for a lot of time.

2/11 = 18%

I hear so much really bad info. Even with myself. I have had many, many
quacks tell me that if I lost weight, I would not get my six-pack back.
I lost weight for medical reasons, and without even trying, as I said
in another post, I got back a six-pack for my abdomen - just as I had
as a teenager. Where these quacks get their info, I just don't know.

And, I gained 30% of my body weight and had many people tell me I was
still thin. I gave up trying to educate people why carrying 30% extra
fat was very dangerous for me in particular. Maybe not for them but for
me.

In any event, don't anybody worry, I am not rushing into things. I have
been discussing this weight loss with various vets as I look for one
who is patient enough to understand losing weight in the general case
and losing weight for optimal longevity which is a special case.

I don't think you caught my previous reference but for those who are
interested. The scientists, mostly by serendipity, doubled the life
spans of certain primates by controlling caloric intake. So that's an
indication that weight is not trivial for life spans of mammals and
many other living creatures.

wrote:

The cat was a very healthy adult at 7 1/2 pounds.

[...]

She really needs to lose a pound or two which is what I originally
said. I am not taking her back to 7.5 right away but I will after I
find a vet who knows and cares about cats and science. That is easier
said than done.


What is the right weight for a young cat is not necessarily the right
weight for an older cat. You sound like your heart is in the right
place but your head may be trying to force your cat into line
with some notions you have about weight that are a bit extreme.
She's a little cat. Let her wear an extra pound if she's happy that
way.

" wrote:

: The cat was a very healthy adult at 7 1/2 pounds...
: I had to go away and left her with others with the strict instructions
: to feed her 70 grams of Science Diet a day. The people were nice but
: not too bright. They free fed her all she wanted to eat...

It is very clear now that she is overweight and also why. You can bring
her weight down very gradually, she won't even know the difference. No
need to stress out either her or yourself.

Topaz wrote:
wrote:

The cat was a very healthy adult at 7 1/2 pounds.

[...]

She really needs to lose a pound or two which is what I originally
said. I am not taking her back to 7.5 right away but I will after I
find a vet who knows and cares about cats and science. That is easier
said than done.


What is the right weight for a young cat is not necessarily the right
weight for an older cat. You sound like your heart is in the right
place but your head may be trying to force your cat into line
with some notions you have about weight that are a bit extreme.
She's a little cat. Let her wear an extra pound if she's happy that
way.

You're so right. The weight of most older cats is way too much and they
should aim for young cats' weights.

It's not my heart but my head. I have been perusing the epidemiological
literature in this regard. It's quite tricky. Try it.

The dilemma is that simple studies show people who age and gain weight
and live a simple life live longer. So the obvious conclusion is that
extra fat is not a bad thing. But the deeper studies show that if
someone loses weight but maintains correct nutrition, that person will
live even longer.

The problem is the proper nutrition. A big problem. But we're talking
here about figuring out why people live to be beyond 100 and not just
saying, duh, it's the genes. The genes can be, shall we say, given a
little boost.

What is true for people is also true for animals. The studies are now
at the primate stage, I believe. The epidemiological studies are
looking at the Okinawans for example. They eat less. They are smaller
than the Japanese but they outlive the Japanese.

As I said, this research came out of the vet experimental labs by
accident. I gather none of you know what I am talking about so I'll
keep quiet. If you're interested here's a reference from Walford.com
who died recently. He was the guy in the Biosphere and who popularized
this research for the last 30 years or so and also published scholarly
articles as a research scientist. I corresponded briefly with him to
discuss the area of weight loss.

In any event, as the next person said, the cat, poor baby, needs to
lose a few pounds regardless of any science. She looks like a cow when
she walks and people make fun of her. Actually I have reduced the udder
by half a pound so it's not so bad as it was last year. Slowly we are
getting there. She is now on canned food and dry food and that has put
muscle in place of fat too.

We're working up to exercising but she hates jogging

wrote in message
ups.com...

In addition, cats lack
glucokinase, the enzyme used by most mammals to clear glucose from the
bloodstream.

There's a detailed explanation of how the cat metabolizes carbohydrates on
my site:

http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutr...i ch_is_reall

http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm