Cat Psychology

"dgk" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:49:41 -0500, "Matthew"
wrote:


"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham :

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual
pressure of the conversation?

The parallel is simple: you wear a seat belt because many more
fatalities occur when not wearing one than when wearing one. And
(in
most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more
fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats.

making laws that directly interfere with my freedoms. Some day,
they will make a law that directly interferes with YOUR enjoyment
of life, but by then, there won't be anything you can hope to do
about it. I will be laughing when they usher you into your padded
cell.........

Well, that answers *that*. You're trolling. Bye!

What a convenient way to, "win" an argument or discussion......Just say
(when you are backed into a wall) "Your trolling". Did they teach you
that
in your collegiate debating club?

RAGE BILL RAGE

Tell those dang liberals gnomes that are stealing your underwear NO MORE
TELL THEM NO MORE


I remember that in elementary school we were told that Communists
would make us use each other's underwear.

And they well might do just that.....If you haven't lived under Communism,
you don't really know, do you? I have never lived under Communism myself,
but I was married to a Polish lady who did live under it.....Worse than
that, she lived under the rule of Josef Stalin. Believe me, both you and I
are very lucky that we didn't have to endure that.

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:10:00 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:


"dgk" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:49:41 -0500, "Matthew"
wrote:


"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham :

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual
pressure of the conversation?

The parallel is simple: you wear a seat belt because many more
fatalities occur when not wearing one than when wearing one. And
(in
most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more
fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats.

making laws that directly interfere with my freedoms. Some day,
they will make a law that directly interferes with YOUR enjoyment
of life, but by then, there won't be anything you can hope to do
about it. I will be laughing when they usher you into your padded
cell.........

Well, that answers *that*. You're trolling. Bye!

What a convenient way to, "win" an argument or discussion......Just say
(when you are backed into a wall) "Your trolling". Did they teach you
that
in your collegiate debating club?

RAGE BILL RAGE

Tell those dang liberals gnomes that are stealing your underwear NO MORE
TELL THEM NO MORE


I remember that in elementary school we were told that Communists
would make us use each other's underwear.

And they well might do just that.....If you haven't lived under Communism,
you don't really know, do you? I have never lived under Communism myself,
but I was married to a Polish lady who did live under it.....Worse than
that, she lived under the rule of Josef Stalin. Believe me, both you and I
are very lucky that we didn't have to endure that.

I like the idea of Communism, everyone working for the good of the
whole, but since people are basically selfish you have to force them
to work for the good of the whole. That doesn't work out so well in
practice.

My parents were pretty much commies until the truth of Stalin came
out. One of my co-workers is from Poland and says there was a lot of
good under Communism but it just gets too corrupt. I also worked with
a Czech guy who had nothing good to say about it.

Of course, Capitalism has many problems as well. I think that masses
of humans are just ungovernable.

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:05:19 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:


"dgk" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:


"Stan Brown" wrote in message
.net...
Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham :
"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
[quoted text muted]
That's about on an intellectual par with "I won't wear a seat belt
because if there was an accident I'd be trapped in the car instead of
thrown clear."

Think so? Well, I don't. Statistics show that there are very few cases
where
seat belts trap someone inside a car to their own detriment. But there
are
many cases where animals are trapped inside burning houses and perish

Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual
pressure of the conversation?

The parallel is simple: you wear a seat belt because many more
fatalities occur when not wearing one than when wearing one. And (in
most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more
fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats.


The parallel is even simpler than that. It's nobody's business but my own
what happens to me in a crash, or what happens to my cats when they are
enjoying life by being outside. So, why doesn't you and the rest of
society
just mind your own damn business? You have already made a law that forces
me
to wear that cheap ridiculous cloth strap that you call a, "Safety belt",
and it will only be a matter of time before you make a law that forces me
to
keep my cats locked up in the house. You and your liberal friends are busy
making laws that directly interfere with my freedoms. Some day, they will
make a law that directly interferes with YOUR enjoyment of life, but by
then, there won't be anything you can hope to do about it. I will be
laughing when they usher you into your padded cell.........

Actually, conservatives are the ones that make the drug laws. Law and
Order you know.

I am a libertarian. I don't care which party makes these stupid "padded
cell" laws.....I am against them. They justify them on the basis that people
won't get hurt and use the social services to get well again, but I didn't
give them permission to give my money away to begin with, so that argument
don't hold any water with me. First, they hold me up every April 15th and
steal my money. Then they give it away to the poor. Then they make laws that
restrict my freedoms and say, "The poor are using up our tax dollars too
fast, so we need these laws to slow it down". The purpose of the law is to
protect the individual from others, or to make us all equally liable for our
excesses. But when they use the law to interfere with our freedoms when the
exercise of those freedoms doesn't interfere with the freedoms of anyone
else, then that is, or at least ought to be, unconstitutional.....The
purpose of the constitution is to protect the minority from the tyranny of
the majority.
This is one of the reasons why I keep outside cats. Sure, they could get
hurt or even killed by the outside world, and they would be safer trapped
inside my house. But I don't believe the purpose of life is to not get hurt
or killed. We are all mortal, and will all, eventually, die. I believe the
purpose of life is to enjoy it as much as we can while we are here. That is
how I live, and I want to give my cats the same opportunity to enjoy life as
I have. I would be unhappy were I trapped inside my house, and so are they.
They all came to me from the outside world, so I don't believe I have the
right to keep them prisoners in my house or anywhere else. If they get
themselves killed, well, that's the chance we all take by living. If staying
alive as long as possible is your shtick, then build yourself a padded cell
and go and live in it. I choose to enjoy life as much as possible, and I
will give my cats that same opportunity. I eat a steak once in a while even
though I know it increases my cholesterol and will probably shorten my life.
My B-K likes to hunt birds and mice and other small animals.....One of these
days, he will be hunting and a big dog or raccoon or coyote will get him. I
will be very sad, but I still wouldn't trap him inside my house. If I hadn't
come along, he would still be foraging for food in that Burger King parking
lot, and probably would be dead by now, since that was 5 years ago. So, he
has already outlived the time God gave him. Any time he has left is courtesy
of old Bill Graham. (me...:^)


I have a relative who has mental problems. He's pretty smart but is on
anti-psychotic meds, and has been since he was a teenager and tried to
gouge his eyes out. He lives on Social Security checks.. He always
wanted to work but it must be pretty tough when you think everyone is
always staring at you and you can't figure out how to put a size 16
shirt in the pile of size 16 shirts.

What should we do with him if we don't help him out? Take him out and
shoot him? Let him die on the street? Should I have to pay for him?
Since his mother died recently I get to deal with a lot of the forms
that she dealt with, and believe me that she had her own issues
mentally-wise. Frankly I can't figure out half the forms that he is
supposed to deal with.

I want to slash our defense (I mean, offense) budget. Our troops go
abroad for one reason and one reason only, and that is to protect the
investments of rich people. I think if we stop trying to run the world
for the benefit of corporations we might find that people around the
world don't hate us as much. Our founding fathers had a very healty
fear of corporate power and limited what corporations can do; over
time those limits have eroded. I think it's time to reign them back in
and only the government has the power to do that. So, consider that
when you rant about the government. Otherwise get get facism, which is
what I think the Tea Party is leading to. Brown shirts in training.

As for outside cats, I'm torn on the issue. I fenced in my little yard
so that my cats can go out, and they often do. But one of the
neighborhood cats (Shay) just ended up getting taken to the vet by one
of my neighbors because his head was ripped open by something. By the
looks of the damage I have to think it was a racoon. We don't exactly
have much wildlife in NYC but we do have them, and possums. Could have
been another cat I guess but I don't know if one cat can do that kind
of damage to another (big) cat.

My neighborhood is pretty safe for outdoor cats I would think; outside
of racoons I guess. But I'm not letting my cats run free. And, my
newest boy Scooter, still has the right to be let out since I took him
off the street. Maybe when the weather gets nicer he'll take me up on
it, but lately he goes to the door, I open it to let him out, and he
comes righ back inside. He's no dummy.

"dgk" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:05:19 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:


"dgk" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800, "Bill Graham"
wrote:


"Stan Brown" wrote in message
l.net...
Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham :
"Stan Brown" wrote in message
t...
[quoted text muted]
That's about on an intellectual par with "I won't wear a seat belt
because if there was an accident I'd be trapped in the car instead
of
thrown clear."

Think so? Well, I don't. Statistics show that there are very few
cases
where
seat belts trap someone inside a car to their own detriment. But
there
are
many cases where animals are trapped inside burning houses and perish

Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual
pressure of the conversation?

The parallel is simple: you wear a seat belt because many more
fatalities occur when not wearing one than when wearing one. And (in
most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more
fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats.


The parallel is even simpler than that. It's nobody's business but my
own
what happens to me in a crash, or what happens to my cats when they are
enjoying life by being outside. So, why doesn't you and the rest of
society
just mind your own damn business? You have already made a law that
forces
me
to wear that cheap ridiculous cloth strap that you call a, "Safety
belt",
and it will only be a matter of time before you make a law that forces
me
to
keep my cats locked up in the house. You and your liberal friends are
busy
making laws that directly interfere with my freedoms. Some day, they
will
make a law that directly interferes with YOUR enjoyment of life, but by
then, there won't be anything you can hope to do about it. I will be
laughing when they usher you into your padded cell.........

Actually, conservatives are the ones that make the drug laws. Law and
Order you know.

I am a libertarian. I don't care which party makes these stupid "padded
cell" laws.....I am against them. They justify them on the basis that
people
won't get hurt and use the social services to get well again, but I didn't
give them permission to give my money away to begin with, so that argument
don't hold any water with me. First, they hold me up every April 15th and
steal my money. Then they give it away to the poor. Then they make laws
that
restrict my freedoms and say, "The poor are using up our tax dollars too
fast, so we need these laws to slow it down". The purpose of the law is to
protect the individual from others, or to make us all equally liable for
our
excesses. But when they use the law to interfere with our freedoms when
the
exercise of those freedoms doesn't interfere with the freedoms of anyone
else, then that is, or at least ought to be, unconstitutional.....The
purpose of the constitution is to protect the minority from the tyranny of
the majority.
This is one of the reasons why I keep outside cats. Sure, they could
get
hurt or even killed by the outside world, and they would be safer trapped
inside my house. But I don't believe the purpose of life is to not get
hurt
or killed. We are all mortal, and will all, eventually, die. I believe the
purpose of life is to enjoy it as much as we can while we are here. That
is
how I live, and I want to give my cats the same opportunity to enjoy life
as
I have. I would be unhappy were I trapped inside my house, and so are
they.
They all came to me from the outside world, so I don't believe I have the
right to keep them prisoners in my house or anywhere else. If they get
themselves killed, well, that's the chance we all take by living. If
staying
alive as long as possible is your shtick, then build yourself a padded
cell
and go and live in it. I choose to enjoy life as much as possible, and I
will give my cats that same opportunity. I eat a steak once in a while
even
though I know it increases my cholesterol and will probably shorten my
life.
My B-K likes to hunt birds and mice and other small animals.....One of
these
days, he will be hunting and a big dog or raccoon or coyote will get him.
I
will be very sad, but I still wouldn't trap him inside my house. If I
hadn't
come along, he would still be foraging for food in that Burger King
parking
lot, and probably would be dead by now, since that was 5 years ago. So, he
has already outlived the time God gave him. Any time he has left is
courtesy
of old Bill Graham. (me...:^)


I have a relative who has mental problems. He's pretty smart but is on
anti-psychotic meds, and has been since he was a teenager and tried to
gouge his eyes out. He lives on Social Security checks.. He always
wanted to work but it must be pretty tough when you think everyone is
always staring at you and you can't figure out how to put a size 16
shirt in the pile of size 16 shirts.

What should we do with him if we don't help him out? Take him out and
shoot him? Let him die on the street? Should I have to pay for him?
Since his mother died recently I get to deal with a lot of the forms
that she dealt with, and believe me that she had her own issues
mentally-wise. Frankly I can't figure out half the forms that he is
supposed to deal with.

I want to slash our defense (I mean, offense) budget. Our troops go
abroad for one reason and one reason only, and that is to protect the
investments of rich people. I think if we stop trying to run the world
for the benefit of corporations we might find that people around the
world don't hate us as much. Our founding fathers had a very healty
fear of corporate power and limited what corporations can do; over
time those limits have eroded. I think it's time to reign them back in
and only the government has the power to do that. So, consider that
when you rant about the government. Otherwise get get facism, which is
what I think the Tea Party is leading to. Brown shirts in training.

As for outside cats, I'm torn on the issue. I fenced in my little yard
so that my cats can go out, and they often do. But one of the
neighborhood cats (Shay) just ended up getting taken to the vet by one
of my neighbors because his head was ripped open by something. By the
looks of the damage I have to think it was a racoon. We don't exactly
have much wildlife in NYC but we do have them, and possums. Could have
been another cat I guess but I don't know if one cat can do that kind
of damage to another (big) cat.

My neighborhood is pretty safe for outdoor cats I would think; outside
of racoons I guess. But I'm not letting my cats run free. And, my
newest boy Scooter, still has the right to be let out since I took him
off the street. Maybe when the weather gets nicer he'll take me up on
it, but lately he goes to the door, I open it to let him out, and he
comes righ back inside. He's no dummy.



Basically, that's the way it is with my cats....They are all outside cats,
but other than sitting on my porch in the Summertime, they all pretty much
stay inside all the time, so it really doesn't make much difference. A
couple of them won't even go outside to relieve themselves....They use the
cat box my wife has in her bathroom. And, on of these is our feral cat that
used to only live outside.

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
Where I live, near the end of a dead
end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule.

I live in a similar situation. All the homes are set back far from the
road. I don't remember any cats here (neighbors or mine) getting run over,
but several dogs were hit and killed on the road. Cats will usually just
"vanish" into thin air one day. So I can't leave mine outside. My
younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to
fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it.
--
Well, All of the cats I have right now came to me from the outside world as
adults, and were used to being outside cats. If I had raised them from
kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped indoors, and
they wouldn't have known the difference, and probably would have been very
happy. But it is not just the cats happiness I have to consider....Keeping
inside cats requires a lot more trouble than keeping outside cats. You can't
just leave for a week and expect your cats to do OK while you are gone as I
can do with my five cats right now. So, it requires a commitment, kind of
like keeping dogs does. One might say that I shouldn't have any cats at all
if I let them go outside, but most of my cats would have eventually been
euthanized had I not taken them in, and they have been very happy living
with my wife and myself, so I am satisfied with my decision to take them in
and let them come and go through the cat doors. We don't have many predators
in my neighborhood, and they have all done very well living here. They all
seem to get along with the raccoons well, probably because they don't
compete for the same food, and I haven't seen any wild coyotes here and I
have been here for 13 years now.

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
They all have access to the outside world through two cat doors.

Holy Cow! If I had cat doors I would have strays in here, possums coming
in, raccoons in the house..... and who knows what else. =O

But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone
dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my outbuilding.
--
Yes.....I have had that trouble with my cat doors too. There was a female
raccoon who couldn't fit through the cat door herself, but she would put her
kittens through it so they could eat the cat food. This did not seem to
bother my cats, but they will hiss at the adult raccoons that come up on the
back porch to eat the dog food we keep out there. We feed the raccoons cheap
dog food. They don't really like it, but when they are very hungry, they
will eat it rather than starve to death. We could end up feeding hundreds of
them if we put out better quality food, but we stick with the 37-1/2 pound
bags of, "Maintain" for $12 a bag, and that works just fine....They eat it
begrudgingly when they are really hungry......

"Bill Graham" wrote:

If I had raised them from
kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped
indoors, and they wouldn't have known the difference, and
probably would have been very
happy.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is not true that all
cats who have never experienced the outdoors don't know the difference
and don't care. We had one whom we kept in for the first year and a
half of her life, and she never accepted it. We finally caved and let
her out, and she lasted another 11 years before going MIA.

It is equally untrue that a cat which has lived all its life outdoors
will necessarily have a problem adjusting to being indoor-only. Most of
them adjust very easily, and many have no interest in the outdoors once
they have moved in.


Keeping inside cats requires a lot more trouble than keeping outside
cats. You can't just leave for a week and expect your cats to do OK
while you are gone as I can do with my five cats right now. So, it
requires a commitment, kind of like keeping dogs does.

Yes, it does require commitment -- more than we ever thought of when we
were growing up with a bunch of barn cats around; and more, I think,
than you have quite accepted. We put off getting any cats until we were
no longer likely to be gone for long periods. I don't go so far as to
say that one shouldn't keep cats if one is not going to keep them
indoors, but I would consider five days unattended as substandard care
even for those with ad lib access to the outside. When we had
indoor-outdoor cats, we always felt we needed to provide
house-/cat-sitters if we were gone more than a day. They need a good
assessing eye run over them at least once a day.


We don't have many predators in my neighborhood, and they have all
done very well living here. They all seem to get along with the
raccoons well, probably because they don't compete for the same
food, and I haven't seen any wild coyotes here and I have been here
for 13 years now.

Raccoons are no problem at all. I think foxes and coyotes get blamed
more often than they are actually guilty, but both will kill cats, and
if you live within their range you can be sure they are around even if
you don't see them. Here, the worst cat killer, in my estimation, is
the fisher -- sightings of which are extremely rare.
--

Wayne M.

"Wayne Mitchell" wrote in message
...
"Bill Graham" wrote:

If I had raised them from
kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped
indoors, and they wouldn't have known the difference, and
probably would have been very
happy.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is not true that all
cats who have never experienced the outdoors don't know the difference
and don't care. We had one whom we kept in for the first year and a
half of her life, and she never accepted it. We finally caved and let
her out, and she lasted another 11 years before going MIA.

It is equally untrue that a cat which has lived all its life outdoors
will necessarily have a problem adjusting to being indoor-only. Most of
them adjust very easily, and many have no interest in the outdoors once
they have moved in.


Keeping inside cats requires a lot more trouble than keeping outside
cats. You can't just leave for a week and expect your cats to do OK
while you are gone as I can do with my five cats right now. So, it
requires a commitment, kind of like keeping dogs does.

Yes, it does require commitment -- more than we ever thought of when we
were growing up with a bunch of barn cats around; and more, I think,
than you have quite accepted. We put off getting any cats until we were
no longer likely to be gone for long periods. I don't go so far as to
say that one shouldn't keep cats if one is not going to keep them
indoors, but I would consider five days unattended as substandard care
even for those with ad lib access to the outside. When we had
indoor-outdoor cats, we always felt we needed to provide
house-/cat-sitters if we were gone more than a day. They need a good
assessing eye run over them at least once a day.


We don't have many predators in my neighborhood, and they have all
done very well living here. They all seem to get along with the
raccoons well, probably because they don't compete for the same
food, and I haven't seen any wild coyotes here and I have been here
for 13 years now.

Raccoons are no problem at all. I think foxes and coyotes get blamed
more often than they are actually guilty, but both will kill cats, and
if you live within their range you can be sure they are around even if
you don't see them. Here, the worst cat killer, in my estimation, is
the fisher -- sightings of which are extremely rare.
--

Wayne M.

I haven't seen any fishers or others of that family around here either. I
worry most about teenage boys....We have a Christmas tree farm behind the
house, and occasionally I hear gunshots coming from that direction. If my
cats routinely wandered around back there I would be more worried than I am.
They seldom leave our property any more......

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
Where I live, near the end of a dead
end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule.

I live in a similar situation. All the homes are set back far from the
road. I don't remember any cats here (neighbors or mine) getting run over,
but several dogs were hit and killed on the road. Cats will usually just
"vanish" into thin air one day. So I can't leave mine outside. My
younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to
fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it.

Well, if she does make it, she will be getting what she wanted most out of
life, so it would not be a total loss. For her anyway.

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
netamerica...

"Kelly Greene" wrote in message
...

"Bill Graham" wrote in message
...
Where I live, near the end of a dead
end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule.

I live in a similar situation. All the homes are set back far from the
road. I don't remember any cats here (neighbors or mine) getting run
over, but several dogs were hit and killed on the road. Cats will
usually just "vanish" into thin air one day. So I can't leave mine
outside. My younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when
I go out to fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make
it.

Well, if she does make it, she will be getting what she wanted most out of
life, so it would not be a total loss. For her anyway.


Well, I live on the edge of town, and there is a huge Christmas tree farm
behind me. My back yard is totally unkempt up and there is a small stream (a
drainage ditch, really) behind me. You would think my cats would really
enjoy hunting mice and whatever in such an environment. But the truth of the
matter is that they spend 99 percent of their time in the house. Even in the
Summertime, they just sleep on the deck overlooking the back yard, and
seldom go down the stairs to go potty.....Most of the time, they would
prefer to use the cat box we keep in one of the bathrooms, incase one of
them is too sick or too old to bother going down the stairs.....They are
just too lazy to enjoy the great outdoors that I have provided for them! Now
a couple of them like the neighbors, and they will wait at the mailboxes and
greet the neighbors coming to get their mail once in a while. One of them
likes to hunt for moles in my next door neighbors front yard, which my
neighbor really likes because the moles wreck his beautiful lawn, so he
likes my cat to do this, and gives him goodies for mole bodies.....:^) In
any case they have all lived here for 6 years or more, and they seem to get
along very well, so I can't worry about them too much. After all, if it
hadn't been for me, most all of them would be dead by now, since I took them
in when nobody else wanted them.