mother and six kittens - update

This is about the cat and kittens in the threads,

fearful mother-to-be
is cat really pregnant?
3 kittens born - help

The six kittens are a week and a day old now.
It has been an uneventful week, with me only
looking in on the kittens, sometimes with a
not very bright flashlight. I took two
pictures of 2-day-old kittens with a flash,
but wont use a flash again anytime soon.
I've never approached the kittens or tried
to touch them.

The mother continues to stay clear of me, and
comes out to eat what I leave for her only after
I have left the room. A few times she has
looked out of the closet at me, but never with
more than her head in view.

Often in the last two or three days she has
been under the bed while the kittens are
sleeping in the closet. But when I look in
again she will be back in there with them.

I would like to be able to replace the bedding
in the closet, but I dont dare disturb the
kittens. Tomorrow I will try preparing a box
for them, with an easy step-over entrance,
and placed in what might look like a safe
secure place. Maybe the mother will move the
kittens to the new place of her own accord;
but if she doesn't, then I might try disturbing
the kittens just enough to replace their
bedding, and if the mother reacts by moving
the kittens, maybe she will move them to the
new place.

Today I took two of my other cats for rabies shots,
and asked my vet about when to separate the
mother from the kittens and let the 'owners'
take her to be spayed and then back home.

He said I should start giving the kittens food
after four weeks, and if they are eating well
within two weeks to separate the mother from
them after a total of six weeks from birth.
I told him that people on the Internet have said
that the kittens and mother should stay
together for from eight to twelve weeks, but he
said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her
down' if continued beyond six weeks.

So that's how things stand. I'm going to
start using a brighter flashlight to try to
tell when the kittens eyes start to open, and
how their eyes look.

The mother continues to eat very well, and I've
been giving her the equivalent of a package of
Sheba or a can of Fancy feast four times a day,
as well as having dry kitten chow and water there
around the clock.

Originally I said there were three black kittens,
but actually there are three dark grey kittens
instead, and the other three are black and white
striped, two of them tabby-like.

-cr

On Mon 15 Aug 2005 08:15:02p, Calvin Rice wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1124151302.336432.7780
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com):

[...]
He said I should start giving the kittens food
after four weeks, and if they are eating well
within two weeks to separate the mother from
them after a total of six weeks from birth.
I told him that people on the Internet have said
that the kittens and mother should stay
together for from eight to twelve weeks, but he
said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her
down' if continued beyond six weeks.
[...]

All said, it sounds like things are going well! I know you don't
want to upset the mama, but I would go ahead and do the cleaning up
stuff. You need to get the kittens used to human interaction and
even if mama moves them, it won't be out of your reach. I don't
understand the vet's opinion and "weighing her down" but the
kittens need human touch. Someone please chime in here with an
opinion on how soon, k? My original thought was that if mama
is so feral, she will teach that behavior to the babies and maybe
it is better to remove her when the kittens are eating on their
own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't
good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course!



--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

Honestly, the vet sounds like an old-fashioned out of touch sort of guy.
And, Calvin, you REALLY need to start interacting with the kittens and mom
as soon as possible. Like yesterday.

If you don't the mom will get more scared, not less, and the kittens will
adopt her attitude.

There is absolutely no need to separate them. I have pictures of "kittens"
trying to suckle when they are almost as big as mama. If she doesn't like
it she tells them! That is nature.

Sounds like this vet would be the sort to recommend bottle over breast for a
human mother.


"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On Mon 15 Aug 2005 08:15:02p, Calvin Rice wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1124151302.336432.7780
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com):

[...]
He said I should start giving the kittens food
after four weeks, and if they are eating well
within two weeks to separate the mother from
them after a total of six weeks from birth.
I told him that people on the Internet have said
that the kittens and mother should stay
together for from eight to twelve weeks, but he
said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her
down' if continued beyond six weeks.
[...]

All said, it sounds like things are going well! I know you don't
want to upset the mama, but I would go ahead and do the cleaning up
stuff. You need to get the kittens used to human interaction and
even if mama moves them, it won't be out of your reach. I don't
understand the vet's opinion and "weighing her down" but the
kittens need human touch. Someone please chime in here with an
opinion on how soon, k? My original thought was that if mama
is so feral, she will teach that behavior to the babies and maybe
it is better to remove her when the kittens are eating on their
own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't
good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course!



--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

p.s. I have kept many kittens and their mothers both over the years.
Separating them has never been necessary. One such critter is helping me to
type as we speak. Her mom was feral, yet I assisted in her birth, and had
to bottle feed the kits when mom took critically ill. Mom is still with me,
still feral (although I can capture her when I need to) but the kitties are
sweet as can be. And they haven't got a clue that they are related, either.

"Betsy" wrote in message
...
Honestly, the vet sounds like an old-fashioned out of touch sort of guy.
And, Calvin, you REALLY need to start interacting with the kittens and mom
as soon as possible. Like yesterday.

If you don't the mom will get more scared, not less, and the kittens will
adopt her attitude.

There is absolutely no need to separate them. I have pictures of
"kittens"
trying to suckle when they are almost as big as mama. If she doesn't like
it she tells them! That is nature.

Sounds like this vet would be the sort to recommend bottle over breast for
a
human mother.


"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
On Mon 15 Aug 2005 08:15:02p, Calvin Rice wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1124151302.336432.7780
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com):

[...]
He said I should start giving the kittens food
after four weeks, and if they are eating well
within two weeks to separate the mother from
them after a total of six weeks from birth.
I told him that people on the Internet have said
that the kittens and mother should stay
together for from eight to twelve weeks, but he
said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her
down' if continued beyond six weeks.
[...]

All said, it sounds like things are going well! I know you don't
want to upset the mama, but I would go ahead and do the cleaning up
stuff. You need to get the kittens used to human interaction and
even if mama moves them, it won't be out of your reach. I don't
understand the vet's opinion and "weighing her down" but the
kittens need human touch. Someone please chime in here with an
opinion on how soon, k? My original thought was that if mama
is so feral, she will teach that behavior to the babies and maybe
it is better to remove her when the kittens are eating on their
own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't
good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course!



--
Cheryl

"The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited
breath."
- W.C. Fields

to Cheryl and Betsy:

The vet is a young guy that I have been taking my cats to for
four years. He is a good communicator and has always done
everything exactly right, as near as I can tell. At least my cats
have always been cured of what was ailing them.

The place is a two-vet animal hospital, with multiple other
technicians and helpers. I don't don't think race should be
relevant, but in case there are cultural issues, my vet is an
African American. The other vet is a middle-aged white guy.

I thought that what he meant by 'weigh her down' was that
nursing six kittens after age six weeks would be physically
demanding because of the milk production required, but of
course I'm only guessing.

The mother has to be separated from the kittens because the
mother is not 'mine'. She has to go back to her 'owners', who
will have her spayed before taking her home.

If the vet sounds out of touch or old-fashioned, it's probably
more because of the way I told about him than about him as
he really is.

Obviously I'm a novice, but I've been so satisfied for the past
four years that I continue to drive 21 miles to this vet instead
of seeing other vets that are only 3 or 4 miles away.

I will start making contact with the kittens now that the eye-opening
time is near, or maybe already started. I thought it was desirable
for the mother and kittens to have a stress-free time of it for at
least the first week, for the health of the kittens. I saw tiny
kittens
die when I was a child, never knowing the reasons. Luckily all
six of these have survived a week and a day, and I can't help but
think that a stress-free first week helped.

-cr

Calvin, you're doing great.

I'm happy that all the kittens are healthy. Even though the mom is not
used to you, you have provided her a safe place for the babies, and I'm
sure she knows it by now.

Take care,

Rhonda

Calvin Rice wrote:

I will start making contact with the kittens now that the eye-opening
time is near, or maybe already started. I thought it was desirable
for the mother and kittens to have a stress-free time of it for at
least the first week, for the health of the kittens. I saw tiny
kittens
die when I was a child, never knowing the reasons. Luckily all
six of these have survived a week and a day, and I can't help but
think that a stress-free first week helped.

-cr

Sorry to sound so stern, Calvin. I go to a lovely vet, too, and chose him
over many others despite the driving distance, like you.

But even though he's very experienced, he owns no cats, and never has. He
is great with dogs. He is great with my cats, too. But I still know them,
and cat behavior, much better than he does, so even though I respect him a
lot, I always carefully weigh his advice. If it wasn't "right" for me most
of the time, of course I wouldn't still be going there.

But vets, and doctors, can and are often wrong. I lived through quite a
trauma when my mother was dying of lung cancer and wasn't willing to take
her treatment into her own hands. She glorified doctors, put them on a
pedestal, instead of thinking for herself. She might have lived longer and
happier if she'd done some research, or let us do it for her as we begged.

So anyway, take care, and I'm sorry for the guilt trip. I'd still, however,
let them be with mom longer if at all possible, because it is better for
them

"Calvin Rice" wrote in message
ps.com...
to Cheryl and Betsy:

The vet is a young guy that I have been taking my cats to for
four years. He is a good communicator and has always done
everything exactly right, as near as I can tell. At least my cats
have always been cured of what was ailing them.

The place is a two-vet animal hospital, with multiple other
technicians and helpers. I don't don't think race should be
relevant, but in case there are cultural issues, my vet is an
African American. The other vet is a middle-aged white guy.

I thought that what he meant by 'weigh her down' was that
nursing six kittens after age six weeks would be physically
demanding because of the milk production required, but of
course I'm only guessing.

The mother has to be separated from the kittens because the
mother is not 'mine'. She has to go back to her 'owners', who
will have her spayed before taking her home.

If the vet sounds out of touch or old-fashioned, it's probably
more because of the way I told about him than about him as
he really is.

Obviously I'm a novice, but I've been so satisfied for the past
four years that I continue to drive 21 miles to this vet instead
of seeing other vets that are only 3 or 4 miles away.

I will start making contact with the kittens now that the eye-opening
time is near, or maybe already started. I thought it was desirable
for the mother and kittens to have a stress-free time of it for at
least the first week, for the health of the kittens. I saw tiny
kittens
die when I was a child, never knowing the reasons. Luckily all
six of these have survived a week and a day, and I can't help but
think that a stress-free first week helped.

-cr

Cheryl wrote:
... I know you don't want to upset the mama, but I would
go ahead and do the cleaning up stuff. You need to get
the kittens used to human interaction and even if mama
moves them, it won't be out of your reach.

As if she read our minds, she moved the kittens out of
the closet last night, to under the bed. So I cleaned out
the closet corner and put in new bedding, just a clean
folded fresh towel.. Whether she will move back to the
closet I don't know, but I will start trying to reach for the
kittens under the bed, something I never have done in
the closet, so maybe she will decide that the closet is
better after all.

I could do something drastic like move the bed around,
but I don't want to terrify the cat, so I'm just go to try to
make natural timid moves in the vicinity of the kittens.

I suppose that once the kittens start to become mobile
on their own it wont really matter where they consider
their nest to be. But at this point they're just 9 days old.

-cr

Betsy wrote:
... I'd still, however, let them be with mom longer if at all
possible, because it is better for them

Don't worry, I wont rigidly plan a separation exactly at six weeks,
but will watch how the kittens are coming along, how well they are
eating other food besides mother's milk, and how healthy and lively
they seem to be.

Still, I'm curious how people who disagree with this vet will argue
against his statement that the cat nursing as many as six kittens after
six weeks will 'weigh her down'. He seemed to feel strongly about this
when he said it.

Today I finally picked up a couple of the kittens, two that I could
reach
under the bed. The mother didn't seem to get excited about it. They
have started to crawl around somewhat, though they still gravitate
toward her. The mother continues to avoid me though. It will be a
real
breakthrough if she ever lets me touch her.

-cr

in article , Calvin
Rice at wrote on 8/16/05 7:13 PM:

Betsy wrote:
... I'd still, however, let them be with mom longer if at all
possible, because it is better for them

Don't worry, I wont rigidly plan a separation exactly at six weeks,
but will watch how the kittens are coming along, how well they are
eating other food besides mother's milk, and how healthy and lively
they seem to be.

Still, I'm curious how people who disagree with this vet will argue
against his statement that the cat nursing as many as six kittens after
six weeks will 'weigh her down'. He seemed to feel strongly about this
when he said it.

Today I finally picked up a couple of the kittens, two that I could
reach
under the bed. The mother didn't seem to get excited about it. They
have started to crawl around somewhat, though they still gravitate
toward her. The mother continues to avoid me though. It will be a
real
breakthrough if she ever lets me touch her.

-cr

I think that is huge that she didn't mind you touching the kittens.