Cat heart murmur and incompetent humane society vet

Lynne wrote:
wrote:
What type of murmur exactly is this?

In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
teeth.

With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
with people.

If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
bacterial endocarditis.

I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
generalities.

I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
"benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.

8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
life threatening cardiac anomaly.

Good dental hygiene is important regardless.


Right. Thanks Lynne. For the record, I have a heart murmur. It was
diagnosed when I was 13. I'm 45 now. I'm in better shape than most
people half my age. I certainly don't sit around worrying about it. I
take an antibiotic before dental work and that's it.

I'll clean Charlie's teeth 2-3 times/week. For the time being, I am not
going to take Charlie to the cardiologist. $500 is a lot of money to
spend for a "maybe." I'll watch him and get him the care if and when he
needs it.

Rich

"mdsu" wrote in message
...
As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
$500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
more involved.

My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.

It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.

I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
Charlie's medical condition.

Rich

Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
his policy.

MaryL

MaryL wrote:
"mdsu" wrote in message
...
As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
$500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
more involved.

My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.

It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.

I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
Charlie's medical condition.

Rich

Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
his policy.

MaryL


Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane
Society to ask about this possibility?

Thanks,
Rich

mdsu wrote:
MaryL wrote:
"mdsu" wrote in message
...
As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
$500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart murmur
that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be something
more involved.

My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience with
Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large medical
bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.

It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or she
had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my vet
heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well. And to
be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a medical
issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that the
murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.

I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the humane
society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm led to
the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me about
Charlie's medical condition.

Rich

Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a good
chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of charge.
It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke to isn't
aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had 2 weeks to
mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I never had to use
his policy.

MaryL


Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane
Society to ask about this possibility?

Thanks,
Rich

You should have been given a packet of paperwork with Charlie, with the
adoption paperwork, microchip information (if applicable), and
paperwork to fill out for the insurance. Our local Humane Society only
offers the insurance for 2 months, but if you have any amt of insurance
on Charlie, and since the Humane Society vet missed the murmur
(therefore making this condition NOT pre-existing), I'd let the
insurance cover the echo. Charlie will have to be sedated for the
echo, though (hopefully not anesthetized).

If you don't have this paperwork, definitely get it!

"mdsu" wrote in message
...
MaryL wrote:
"mdsu" wrote in message
...
As some of you may know, I just adopted two cats from my local humane
society last week. They had their first appointment with my vet this
morning. She detected a heart murmur in the male, Charlie. My vet
recommended that I follow up with the animal cardiologist to the tune of
$500! My vet said the heart murmur could be nothing (I have a heart
murmur that's caused me no problems). On the other hand, it could be
something more involved.

My last cat, Al, died at the end of August. He had diabetes, asthma, and
hyperthyroidism. I spent thousands of dollars on his health care. But he
was fine up until he reached the age of 11 or so. Given my experience
with Al, I am more than a little reluctant to start incurring large
medical bills with a 1 year old cat I got a week ago.

It seems to me that the humane society's vet is incompetent. All he or
she had to do was listen to Charlie's chest to hear the murmur. If my
vet heard it, then their vet should have been able to hear it as well.
And to be honest, I would not have adopted Charlie had I known he had a
medical issue, at least not unless the humane society had certified that
the murmur was not serious. But they didn't do that.

I'm more than a little angry about this situation and have let the
humane society know about it. If their vet is not incompetent, then I'm
led to the conclusion that they purposely withheld information from me
about Charlie's medical condition.

Rich

Does this shelter list pets with www.petfinder.com? If so, there is a
good chance that you are entitled to a 1-year insurance policy free of
charge. It would be worth checking further, in case the woman you spoke
to isn't aware of this possibility. When I adopted Duffy, I think I had
2 weeks to mail the forms for the 1 year of insurance. Fortunately, I
never had to use his policy.

MaryL
Yes, they do. So by checking further, do you mean call the Humane Society
to ask about this possibility?

Thanks,
Rich

Yes, check with the Humane Society. Also, it would be worthwhile to go to
Petfinders and see if insurance is listed for cats from your shelter.

MaryL

Lynne wrote:
8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those

that's for congenital heart defects which is not necessarily the same
thing
the rate for murmurs is higher than 0.8%. with careful diagnosis maybe
2%, without careful diagnoses, much, much higher.

defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
life threatening cardiac anomaly.

That's not always true. If it were, then the decision when to go in and
do open heart surgery would be much, much simpler than it currently is.
The problem is you want to do the surgery before the condition is not
reversible. Thus, you want to go in when a person is healthy and not
displaying any real life threatening conditions. It would be nice if it
were always what you post above, but it's not.

Do you know anyone who has had valvular surgery? Are you speaking from
experience? Heart murmurs are quite a different thing from the more
common bypass surgeries and what not. It's more difficult to diagnose
when to do it. The other heart problems are relatively easy, with pain
and shortness of breath and inability to get around as before and many
symptoms that you may not see in valve problems.

In the case of murmurs and heart valve surgery, it's just not as simple
and common sensical as you post above. It would be nice if it were, but
it's not

Good dental hygiene is important regardless.

True dat.

" wrote:

I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.

How many other animals and programs would suffer if the HS had to use
money not budgeted for exotic surgery?

Sorry but that is not realistic.

-mhd

On 4 Oct 2006 16:35:04 -0700, "Lynne"
wrote:


wrote:

What type of murmur exactly is this?

In any case, regardless, be extremely careful of the condition of the
teeth.

With cats this is for sure, teeth problems go straight to the heart.
It's probably the same for people but it's not been studied that much
with people.

If the murmur is caused by valve irregularities, then the bacteria from
the teeth, traveling in the blood stream, have an easy time latching
onto the valves. Then there is a life threatening condition of
bacterial endocarditis.

I have noticed that people doctors will also miss a murmur. They just
want the individual in and out and are doing the most cursory of
stethoscope examinations. Although most doctors will say that murmurs
are benign, that may be so statistically. But the ones that are not
benign, in the end, will kill you, inevitably. THe last research I read
gave a mean of around 7 years before death [for people] when the murmur
is no longer benign, unless there is surgical intervention. And most
quacks don't know enough to even begin to figure out which benign
murmur will not be benign in the future. So they throw out meaningless
generalities.

I would ask the human society to pay for the heart surgery if needed.
Do they make little kitty heart valves? That will be one big bill.
Also, I would ask them to look into care. It is possible that a beta
blocker and an ACE inhibitor will buy time when the murmur is no longer
"benign." These drug are not too expensive. A beta blocker is dirt
cheap. I don't know if this is done with felines.

8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those
defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
life threatening cardiac anomaly.

While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
cause? If the murmur is mild, it's probably nothing to worry about,
and can easily be missed if the exam was done in a noisy environment.
Also, young children sometimes get murmurs simply because of how the
blood flows, and will outgrow them as the body grows and the vessels
get a little bigger.

Personally, I would start saving up for the cardiologist, simply
because I would want to know if it was something major early on. It
may be nothing, in which case you spend the money once and can rest
easy. But it may be something that you need to keep an eye on, and
knowing that early is better than catching when the cat's health
starts to deteriorate.

And, just as a reference point, I took my cat to the same vet for 5
years. I had to move to a new city for a new job, and took the cats
in for a last check-up to make sure that everything was ok right
before I left, and the vet noticed a murmur in one of the cats. She
hadn't seen any signs of it before, there doesn't seem to be any
reason for it physiologically, and it doesn't seem to bother the cat
any. (As I put it, every medical indication is that this cat has no
murmur, except that you can hear it.) So I am watching and waiting
with her. But it just goes to show that these things can suddenly
show up.

Rebecca

wrote:
Lynne wrote:
8 in 1000 human babies are born live annually in this country with
congenital heart defects of one degree or another. Many of those

that's for congenital heart defects which is not necessarily the same
thing
the rate for murmurs is higher than 0.8%. with careful diagnosis maybe
2%, without careful diagnoses, much, much higher.

defects are not diagnosed until autopsy, after the person dies of
other, unrelated causes later in life. This makes it pretty clear that
the vast majority of heart defects are benign. I doubt there are
similar statistic for cats. Regardless, whether human or feline, if a
murmur is indicative of a life threatening problem, there will be
symptoms beyond the murmur. Humans with good medical care are prudent
to explore any murmurs. Unless and until Charlie demonstrates
symptoms, there is no reason for his servant, Rich, to be worried. If
he has the means, getting an echo will be more definitive than watching
and waiting. Maybe. I don't see any reason to alarm him if the kitty
is healthy and thriving, which he would not be if he had any kind of
life threatening cardiac anomaly.

That's not always true. If it were, then the decision when to go in and
do open heart surgery would be much, much simpler than it currently is.
The problem is you want to do the surgery before the condition is not
reversible. Thus, you want to go in when a person is healthy and not
displaying any real life threatening conditions. It would be nice if it
were always what you post above, but it's not.

Do you know anyone who has had valvular surgery? Are you speaking from
experience? Heart murmurs are quite a different thing from the more
common bypass surgeries and what not. It's more difficult to diagnose
when to do it. The other heart problems are relatively easy, with pain
and shortness of breath and inability to get around as before and many
symptoms that you may not see in valve problems.

In the case of murmurs and heart valve surgery, it's just not as simple
and common sensical as you post above. It would be nice if it were, but
it's not

Good dental hygiene is important regardless.

True dat.

Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic
surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
symptoms other than a murmur.

wrote:

While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
cause?

I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
what cardiologists do.