Cat heart murmur and incompetent humane society vet

wrote:

While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
cause?

I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
what cardiologists do.

On 4 Oct 2006 19:54:40 -0700, "Lynne"
wrote:

wrote:

While I mostly agree, the question to ask the vet who detected the
murmur is what _kind_ of a murmur it was. How loud was it, and does
it have any particular characteristics that would help determine the
cause?

I think it would be asking a lot of a regular vet to be able to qualify
a murmur, especially one that wasn't heard by a previous vet. That's
what cardiologists do.

Hmm. My vets don't seem to have any trouble grading it, at least.
But they did bring in a specialist for the echo.

Rebecca

I became curious about how congenital defects are handled in cats. I
found this story and it was so cute I stopped looking:

http://www.nsalamerica.org/sponsor/s...applejack.html

Note this kitty has complex congenital heart disease, and both problems
are fairly serious on their own. He is doing pretty well so far! His
failure to gain weight, however, is a common problem for human kids
with certain types of heart disease, too. CCHD is often accompanied by
other congenital defects as well and his stomach problems could be
related. It's very cool that he is doing so well. Personally, I find
it amazing that so many hearts are formed perfectly when so many things
have to happen just right when the heart develops.

BTW, these same problems in a human child would be surgically repaired
(perhaps not the septal defect, depending on its size), but the timing
would depend on how the child was fairing, since many surgical repairs
need to be repeated as the child grows.

Anyway, RICH, don't worry about Charlie. If you can get that echo on
the insurance company's nickle, it would be a good idea for your own
peace of mind.

Lynne wrote:
Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic

I was referring to the murmurs caused by valve problems, like a mitral
valve, that when they get bad, that is a "4+" or severe - the textbook
prognosis is death within 7 years. Now if anyone can beat this, power
to them but that's the average survival rate with medication and
without surgery. It's not clear to me if anyone can beat this with
careful medication but the problem is with "severe" mitral
regurgitation, for example, the heart will begin to decompensate by
enlarging. If the heart, left ventricle, enlarges too much, then the
surgery will not be effective. So there is a very confusing area where
someone has to get surgery although the symptoms are not severe, aside
from the regurgitation. At that point, one looks for atrial
fibrillation or other indicators but it's a difficult call. If one is
turning blue and syncoping, then the call is simple.

surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
symptoms other than a murmur.

If the mitral valve regurgitation is severe, then it is possible that
many cardiologists will recommend surgery without any other symptoms.
You can say that the regurgitation itself is severe is a symptom. And
that's what I was thinking when I originally wrote my post. But this is
a difficult call. Really good cardiologists, of which there are very
few, will agree with you and want to see a symptom other than severe
regurgitation. Atrial fibrillation will be considered. But atrial
fibrillation by itself is not considered serious although if it's
paroxysmal, it can lead to strokes. But atrial fibrillation can be
controlled by itself at times, with drugs or radio ablation.

The problem is it is possible to have a serious mitral valve murmur
with severe regurgitation and not much else in the way of symptoms.

And it's also possible that, on top of this, the echocardiograph will
not be conclusive because of the turbulence of the regurgitation. It's
a nightmare for proper diagnosis in some situations.

Lynne wrote:
Actually, I know a lot about valvular and other open heart surgery, but
related to complex congenital heart defects (pediatrics). I am
assuming this cat is young, so a murmur in a young cat is more likely a
congenital defect than not. What I said before applies more often than
not. Additionally, not all murmurs are valve problems, and not all
valve problems even require surgery. I'm not familiar with thoracic

I was referring to the murmurs caused by valve problems, like a mitral
valve, that when they get bad, that is a "4+" or severe - the textbook
prognosis is death within 7 years. Now if anyone can beat this, power
to them but that's the average survival rate with medication and
without surgery. It's not clear to me if anyone can beat this with
careful medication but the problem is with "severe" mitral
regurgitation, for example, the heart will begin to decompensate by
enlarging. If the heart, left ventricle, enlarges too much, then the
surgery will not be effective. So there is a very confusing area where
someone has to get surgery although the symptoms are not severe, aside
from the regurgitation. At that point, one looks for atrial
fibrillation or other indicators but it's a difficult call. If one is
turning blue and syncoping, then the call is simple.

surgery in felines. I do not know if surgical intervention is even
possible, to be honest, but I am hard pressed to think of any
congenital heart defect requiring surgery that would present with no
symptoms other than a murmur.

If the mitral valve regurgitation is severe, then it is possible that
many cardiologists will recommend surgery without any other symptoms.
You can say that the regurgitation itself is severe is a symptom. And
that's what I was thinking when I originally wrote my post. But this is
a difficult call. Really good cardiologists, of which there are very
few, will agree with you and want to see a symptom other than severe
regurgitation. Atrial fibrillation will be considered. But atrial
fibrillation by itself is not considered serious although if it's
paroxysmal, it can lead to strokes. But atrial fibrillation can be
controlled by itself at times, with drugs or radio ablation.

The problem is it is possible to have a serious mitral valve murmur
with severe regurgitation and not much else in the way of symptoms.

And it's also possible that, on top of this, the echocardiograph will
not be conclusive because of the turbulence of the regurgitation. It's
a nightmare for proper diagnosis in some situations.

mdsu wrote:
Please, I've heard enough of that from the Humane Society. There's a
difference between being frustrated and being mean. Charlie is not a
vacuum cleaner that I will return because something is wrong.

Well, then why are you continuing to bitch and moan about it? Mistakes
happen. Through this mistake, you ended up with a great cat that
otherwise would probably have been euthanized. Celebrate that, instead
of complaining about how "cheated" you feel.

-L.

-L. wrote:
mdsu wrote:
Please, I've heard enough of that from the Humane Society. There's a
difference between being frustrated and being mean. Charlie is not a
vacuum cleaner that I will return because something is wrong.

Well, then why are you continuing to bitch and moan about it? Mistakes
happen. Through this mistake, you ended up with a great cat that
otherwise would probably have been euthanized. Celebrate that, instead
of complaining about how "cheated" you feel.

-L.

Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
it. And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
certainly not welcome.

Rich

mdsu wrote:

Oh jeez, I expressed a little frustration. If you don't like it, ignore
it.

You came in here asking for advice and blaming the vet - I told you the
truth - that murmurs are oftentimes missed by very good vets.

And your "just bring him back" comment was most unhelpful and
certainly not welcome.

Rich

Well Jackass, when you post to a newsgroup how upset you are with the
HS and wouldn't have taken the cat if you had known it has a medical
issue, what the **** do you expect? If you are THAT upset about the
cat, take it back. It's not neuroscience. And by the way, if you
don't want opinions, don't post to a world-wide unmoderated group.
Sheesh. If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
needs.

-L.

"-L." wrote

If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
needs.


Would that be the groups reserved exclusively for the Native
American tribes who practice the ancient ritual of blowing
sugar out of their asses?




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

cybercat wrote:
"-L." wrote

If all you want is "yes men" and sugar blown out your ass,
join Yahopo groups - there are plenty of those there to suit your
needs.


Would that be the groups reserved exclusively for the Native
American tribes who practice the ancient ritual of blowing
sugar out of their asses?

LOL...Yahoo. I can't type worth ****, and I can't see worth **** to
catch my typos!

-L.