Cat vs Human

"LOL" wrote in message
om...
"JHBennett" wrote in message
...
Angela,

(selective snipping for length)

, and another time--my scariest
encounter--I was confronted by a dog, on a pitch dark night. I couldn't
see
the dog, which sounded large, and he was very menacing, blocking my
path.
In that case, all I could do was give the universal "No!" command,
followed
by "go home" and some other authoritarian verbal orders. Whatever it
was
worked and he vanished back into the night.
The thing of it is, you, us, we people, are at the top of the food
chain
and the big creatures in charge. We're the bosses and, while it's nice
and
fun to kid around about *them* being our masters or our equals, it just
isn't so, nor can it be. I don't know what was going on in your pet's
mind,
but would offer that she apparently believes she can discipline you, in
her
way, for whatever infraction you committed. If she thinks that, it's
dangerous and dumb, my friend.

Cheers,
Jack



Mike has always been a mean cat. He's always been a biter, and though
it's happened less and less over the years (he's now 11) occasionally
he would just *attack* - he would get a strange look in his eyes, and
there was no stopping him unless you could throw up a barrier of some
kind, like shove a pillow in front of you to block him. It was almost
like a seizure of some kind, and was pretty scary, just because it was
so weird. He could do some damage whenever this happened.

That said, there is a limit to just how much damage a 10 pound cat can
do to a 100 pound person. Assuming you can keep the cat from your
face and eyes, bad scratches is about the extent of it. In my
experience, under ordinary circumstances the commanding voice thing
will do the trick. If an animal is completely out of control, all
bets are off, of course.

I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner insert
ladylike snort of glee

I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
shaken off the "NO" command g but what would you suggest in that
situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.

------
Krista

Wow! Kudos for keeping your wits in a bad situation, Krista ;-) I do
believe in the *no* command, virtually every dog has heard it. I understand
trained guard dogs--and I know the police dogs for the Air Force--are
sometimes trained to respond to commands in German. If pressed, I think I
could manage ;-)

On the practical side--and I offer this with some trepidation--I am
convinced I can kill a dog, with my bare hands, if I am ever seriously
attacked, and I am determined to do so. If you are a fan of the movie
*Outlaw Josie Wales* you'll recall the scene where Wales is describing how
the people must fight for their lives, admonishing them that they must
"...get mad dog mean..." to survive. Animals have a mouth full of teeth and
are fast. We, however, have a better brain and can think in stratigic and
tactical terms. Predictably, a trained dog will likely go for an arm, as
we've seen in films of police training. I believe it possible to break a
dogs neck, if it takes your forearm. The method would be a variation of a
killing, hand to hand combat tactic, I picked up from a book on the subject
from WWII. In the case of killing an enemy combatant, the method is to get
your forearm under the chin of an opponent, from behind. Once you have your
arm under the chin, you hook your hand into the crook of the elbow, of your
other arm, with the hand of that arm at the back of the head. Once you have
achieved this grip (it's rather simple, really), you step back allowing the
weight of the person to bear on the neck, as you bend the head/neck forward,
toward the chest. Applying that same principle to an attacking dog, let
him have the forearm, place your free hand just behind its head, grip your
forearm, step back and bend the dog's head back over its body. I haven't
tried it, so can't say for sure it would work. However, once when my 130
pound German Shepard and I were playing, he had his mouth wrapped around my
arm. I very gently took the hold I've described and simply held him, to get
some assessment of the practical usefullness of the tactic--if ever needed.
He was greatly distressed by the situation, and I can guarantee I didn't
hurt him even in the slightest.
Likely dogs have never encountered a creature with fists, so wouldn't
have a clue about what they can do. Actually, if you believe some of the
kung-foo nonsence, I suppose you can stop a tank. An attacking dog would be
vulnerable to a blow to the throat. I'd hit with my fist and as hard as I
could manage--mad dog mean, remember? The idea would be to crush the
windpipe/larynx and, if it doesn't work the first time, try it again. A
blow to that area is quite painful anyway, and, if you do manage to crush
those vital structures, the amimal will likely die......certainly ought to
take some of the enthusiasm out of them.
Then there is the matter of the eyes. In our era of sanitized--*G*
rated--staged for TV fights, nobody gouges eyes out. For that reason, I
doubt anybody would think of disabling an opponent by blinding them. Eyes
are well protected by bone structure from slashing attacks but, a thumb (use
the thumbs) driven straight into the corner of the eye, then pressed outward
toward the side, would be painful and, if done with the determination the
situation warrants, would dislodge the eye from the socket. If the loss of
one eye doesn't discourage the beast, take out the other and your now
blinded opponent should be completely at your mercy.
Otherwise, I would advise giving the idea of how you can fight back some
thought. What can you do, and how you would do it? A kick to the chest can
be very dangerous, you know. People have been killed because their hearts
have been stopped by such a blow, why not a dog? Also, in my case, I can
imagine a situation where I might grab a dog by a hind leg and sling it
against the pavement. But I have the size and strength to do that, while
you may not. The problem gets simpler if there are two of you and only one
attacking dog. If the dog is attacking your friend, you can kick it in the
chest--as hard as you can. In the alternative, you might be able to get on
its back and get your forearm around the neck, to strangle it. If a dog
were attacking you, your friend might be able to grab a hind leg and pull it
away, then bash its brains out by swinging it overhead and against the
ground.
I should also mention I've carried a pocket knife for many years, but
have never thought of it as a weapon, obviously, since I'm just now getting
around to it. Mine happens to be what's called a *stockman's* model, with a
3" blade, that's as sharp as a razor, literally. It will split a single
hair (long boring story behind that) and, should I ever think of it, when
attacked by a dog or any other creature, the affair will be settled in a
hurry, if I can get it into action, as it would require both hands to open
it. However, the state of the art now is pocket knives which can be opened
with one hand. The ones I've seen, which would be suitable for defensive
purposes, have a button on the blade which allows you to swing the blade
open with the thumb, while holding the handle, with one hand. As far as I
know, pocket knives are legal in every state and local of the US. You
should be able to locate something suitable at a gun shop, sporting goods
store, shopping center, etc. Thus armed (tools and brains are why we're at
the top of the FC) whether you stab an attacking animal or cut it's throat
becomes a matter of personal preference and opportunity.
There is also a thing called a *bear bomb,* which dischrges a cloud of
pepper gas. If you are thinking those little canisters of tear gas hanging
on hooks at the stores you frequent, they're rather harmless, I understand,
and not what I'm talking about. I learned about the things in a discussion
on a Canadian news group where the subject of bear attacks came up. We were
knocking around a situation where an inexperienced fellow wanted to know if
a 9mm pistol would be sufficient protection against a Grizzly bear (in fact
it's suicidal) and several of the Canadians advocated the use of a bear
bomb. Apparently they are available in the US, presumably in bear country,
and one fellow described the effectiveness by relating his watching a video
of a bear, running away from a group, diving under water repeatedly, as it
swam away down stream. I would offer that a device which would turn a
Grizzly would do the job with just about any other critter around,
regardless of whether having two or four legs, which might annoy you ;-)
Weapons can also be improvised and the bar of soap, in the sock, is a
classic. It makes a pretty fair blackjack. Also ball point pens or
pencils can be used to stab. Give it some thought and I'm certain you can
work out some contingency plans that will serve you well, should the
situation ever come up again. Of course, in the final analysis, one can
always kneel down, in the fetal position, protecting the neck and throat,
with the hands clasped behind the head and arms held close to the body.
Such would be against my combative nature and assuredly the last thing I
would do, but supposedly it is how one can survive a bear attack.
Speaking of which, you have heard about this advisory put out by the
state of Montana, haven't you?

***Bear Advisory***
Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and wilderness
areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing. Accordingly,
the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory, in
the interest of public safety.
Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will afix
little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in the
area.
When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that bears
are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and contain
bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of clothing
and little bells.

Cheers, Krista ;-)
Jack
PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.

I like dogs, but I am extremely wary around them. It enrages me when people do
not have their dogs on leashes and they allow the dogs to come right up to me.
What the hell is that? Get your dog AWAY from me!

I was at a playground with a babysitting charge just yesterday and a lady was
there with her dog, on a leash at least. (There was a huge no-dog sign, but it
couldn't possibly apply to HER). A kid walked up to within a few metres of them
and said "may I pet your dog"? Just as he had been taught. The woman replied,
"Huh? Yeah, sure.". The kid goes up to the dog and the dog jumps back and gets
all upset. Not barking or anything, but still. The woman says, "Oh, be careful!
You have to go slow because he doesn't know you. HE DOESN'T LIKE PEOPLE."
(emphasis mine). WTF???? If that had been the kid i was taking care of, I would
have thrown a huge fit. What an irresponsible idiot.

Anyhow, I carry a collapsable baton, in part to whack any dog who tries to bite
me. In a self-defence way, I mean. Like I said, I LIKE dogs. But I'm wary.



I have my own scary dog encounter, and would like to ask your opinion.
Once, DH and I were out walking at night, when a man pulled into his
driveway across the street. Big, *big* rottweiler leaped out of the
back of his truck and headed for DH and me, barking and snarling like
he meant business. My DH did not grow up around pets, and his
instinct is to run, which he began to do, grabbing my arm. The dog's
owner was running into the street after the dog, trying to catch him
before he could get to us. I snatched my arm away from DH and yelled
******!!!NO!!!******* at the dog in my very best commanding voice.
The dog froze in his tracks. So did DH and the dog's owner insert
ladylike snort of glee

I like dogs, and like rotties, but I know this man and can easily
believe he'd trained this dog to be mean. The shout at least stopped
the dog long enough to let his owner get to him, after he himself had
shaken off the "NO" command g but what would you suggest in that
situation? We were not carrying a stick or anything, and the dog
outweighed me by at least 30 or 40 pounds. Humans aren't *always* at
the top of the food chain, in a situation like this.

They put that dog the hell down, right?

The child and
officer recovered and the dog's owner was cited. But I couldn't believe
this dog just stopped and sat down when I yelled no. I don't think I was
able to relax the rest of the day.

"JHBennett" wrote in message ...

(snipped)

***Bear Advisory***
Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and wilderness
areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing. Accordingly,
the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory, in
the interest of public safety.
Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will afix
little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in the
area.
When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that bears
are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and contain
bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of clothing
and little bells.

Cheers, Krista ;-)
Jack
PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.


ROFL! I love the bear advisory! I will forward that, if you don't
mind.

I do have a pocket knife on my keychain, but it is a tiny thing I use
for zipping open boxes, etc.; maybe I should get a bigger one. And
some of us do think of eyes - I am a smoker and it has occurred to me
what an effective deterrent a lit cigarette in the eye would be.

Thanks for the thought provoking post - I am hoping not to *have* to
worry about my position on the food chain, though. :-)

------
Krista

Bob M wrote in message ...


I can definitely vouch for this. As most of you know I am a police
officer in a suburb of Dallas. One day I got a call that a guy's 3 pit
bulls had gotten out and were terrorizing the neighborhood. One of them
was apparently meaner than the other 3 and had already attacked a child
and hurt it badly. When I arrived on scene I saw the animal control
officer who was frightened and bleeding. The dog had attacked him too.
By this time 2 of the dogs had already gone home but the mean one wanted
me for lunch! The animal control guy is a big man. He's probably 6"3"
and over 300lbs. As scared as he was he was still trying to do his job
and round up this dog. About the time I step out of my squad car, the
dog starts racing down the sidewalk at me. I pulled my gun and pointed
it at the dog. Keep in mind this dog had already attacked 2 people. I
yelled NO! and was already halfway back on the trigger. The damn dog
stopped and sat down on the sidewalk. We were still trying to figure out
how to round him up when his owner drove by and saw what was happening.
He was able to put the dog in the animal control's truck. The child and
officer recovered and the dog's owner was cited. But I couldn't believe
this dog just stopped and sat down when I yelled no. I don't think I was
able to relax the rest of the day.

Bob


Yikes! Did the dog go back home to his owner after all that? I have
to wonder if encounters like this bother us so much because we're so
used to automatically dominating animals without even having to *try*
that it is more disconcerting than it really should be when we *can't*
control an animal? Anyway, I am glad your experience ended as well as
it did, bad though it was.

------
Krista

"LOL" wrote in message
om...
"JHBennett" wrote in message
...

(snipped)

***Bear Advisory***
Due to the growing number of people recreating in remote and
wilderness
areas, the incidents of encounters with bears are increasing.
Accordingly,
the Montana Department of Natural Resources is issuing this advisory,
in
the interest of public safety.
Given the opportunity, bears will avoid contact with humans, if they
know they are about. For this reason, many hikers and campers, will
afix
little bells to their clothing to announce their presence to wildlife in
the
area.
When in bear country, people should also be alert to signs that
bears
are near. Black bear scat will resemble that of a domestic dog and
contain
bits of fur and berries. Grizzly bear scat will contain bits of
clothing
and little bells.

Cheers, Krista ;-)
Jack
PS--Regarding your concern for humans remaining at the top of the food
chain, I think we can manage it for awhile longer yet.


ROFL! I love the bear advisory! I will forward that, if you don't
mind.

Be my guest. I stole it from someone else ;-) --JB

I do have a pocket knife on my keychain, but it is a tiny thing I use
for zipping open boxes, etc.; maybe I should get a bigger one.

Yup. Go shopping. I think you'll like what you find. --JB

And
some of us do think of eyes - I am a smoker and it has occurred to me
what an effective deterrent a lit cigarette in the eye would be.

Hmmmmm.... In the practical application, it might be too slow, vice the
thrust of the thumb. For sure, you're not going to have time to light up
;-)))) --JB

Thanks for the thought provoking post - I am hoping not to *have* to
worry about my position on the food chain, though. :-)

Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually, when I
hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the woman attacked
for 15 minutes in her California appartment building, I'm convinced they
didn't fight back.
Cheers,
Jack

JHBennett wrote:

Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually,
when I hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the
woman attacked for 15 minutes in her California appartment building,
I'm convinced they didn't fight back.

Are you talking about the San Francisco woman who was mauled to death by
a pit bull in the hallway of her building, just as she was at her front
door? The dog that was trained as a fighting dog, along with many others,
by the woman who was with the dog at that time? (Actually, I'm not sure
the woman herself actually trained the fighting dogs, but she was involved
with the people who did it, and she and her husband were taking care of
two of those dogs.)

This case was all over the news for about 2 years in the Bay Area. The
woman who died was unarmed and pretty much defenseless against an
aggressive, strong, well-trained pit bull.

Mind you, I don't believe all pit bulls are evil - not by a long shot.
I've met many who were very sweet and lovable. But they're really strong
dogs, with *very* strong jaws, and if they're trained to be aggressive,
they're very dangerous, and can certainly kill a person, regardless of
whether the person fights back. And anyway, even if the person dies
because they didn't fight back, the dog could still be dangerous to
others. Many people don't know they might be able to fight a dog off.
So the same thing could happen to any number of people.

Joyce

wrote

Mind you, I don't believe all pit bulls are evil - not by a long shot.
I've met many who were very sweet and lovable.

Nikki once scratched a pit bull's nose when it got too close to her. I'm
glad it hadn't been trained to be aggressive. It had just been chosen the
"most beautiful pit bull" of the year at some show or other, and its owners
never spoke to me again after Nikki had marred its "beauty". ;o)

--
Marina

"Jo Firey" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
JHBennett wrote:

Hope it gives you some food for thought and peace of mind. Actually,
when I hear about cases where dogs have killed someone, such as the
woman attacked for 15 minutes in her California appartment building,
I'm convinced they didn't fight back.

Are you talking about the San Francisco woman who was mauled to death by
a pit bull in the hallway of her building, just as she was at her front
door? The dog that was trained as a fighting dog, along with many
others,
by the woman who was with the dog at that time? (Actually, I'm not sure
the woman herself actually trained the fighting dogs, but she was
involved
with the people who did it, and she and her husband were taking care of
two of those dogs.)

This case was all over the news for about 2 years in the Bay Area. The
woman who died was unarmed and pretty much defenseless against an
aggressive, strong, well-trained pit bull.


Joyce

The case in San Francisco, those dogs weren't pit bulls. They were a
cross between
English Mastiff's and Canary Island Fighting dogs. Quite a bit larger and
more
aggressive than a pit bull. The killer dog weighed 120 pounds. (The
second dog did
not take part in the attack). Not to mention they were being "cared for"
by the
attorneys for drug dealers who were in jail at the time. So you can
imagine the
training those dogs had. She would have had a better chance with a pack
of wolves.

Jo
That's the case I was thinking of, Jo. However, I wasn't sure of the
breed--knew it wasn't the Pit Bull. As I recall, the final stages of the
attack lasted some 15 minutes and actually happened in the woman's
appartment, after she managed to open the door. I'll grant you that, at
this point, it is only speculation but I do wonder whether she essentially
gave up, hoping the attack would end, or if she actually fought back or
actively defended herself, in some manner. Most appartments are chuck full
of weapons, if you think to use them and can get to them. Otherwise, even
bare handed, there are ways to fight back, as I've mentioned. I really don't
agree that anyone is defenseless against an animal attack. The exception,
of course, is if you do nothing to fight back and defend yourself, in which
case one really is defenseless. Might as well go down fighting, I think.
Or, said another way, sometimes you have to give luck and meanness a chance.
Incidentally, I read once that there had never been a recorded incident
of a person being attacked by wolves, in all of history--ever. If true,
it's an astonishing bit of information. I've never bothered to check it
out, but I can say I've never heard of a wolf attack upon anyone. Timber
Wolves are so plentiful in Canada, they are not protected there, you know.
Cheers,
Jack

"JHBennett" wrote in message ...

(snipped)

Hmmmmm.... In the practical application, it might be too slow, vice the
thrust of the thumb. For sure, you're not going to have time to light up
;-)))) --JB


Cheers,
Jack


I wasn't planning on lighting a cigarette - that would require an
awfully patient attacker! I was assuming I'd have an already lit
cigarette in hand, which is always quite likely. :-)

------
Krista