Vaccinations The great Debate

The breeder I got my kitten from had used Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
5.12. we left it longer under my vets advice as he had been unwell 3 times,
twice before we got him, mouth ulcers, lost the fur and whiskers from his
face, had antibiotics, cleared up came back more antibiotics, cleared up,
then we got him and some of you may of remember he got a shock we think!
with a very high temp of 105 and she wanted to make sure he was well before
given him his jabs.

Well in the UK most vets use live vaccines, but after a lot of research I
decided I wanted killed virus's, I believe if you don't ask for killed they
automatically give live/modified.

He had them all inc feline Leukaemia... not Rabies as UK
he was in good health, we got him home and he became really poorly, I rang
the vets spoke to the receptionist (who did get the vet herself to call me
back.) She explained that this sometimes happens in cats... but as long as
he wasn't being sick, diarrhoea, then if so bring him in for an anti
inflammatory jab, which he had before after shock.

he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
where ever you put him he didn't move :-( I was worried sick! gave him
drips of water from syringe ever 30 mins and some kittyvite which I rubbed
onto his gums. I checked the net and found this a common reaction.....
during the night he started eating, playing and now he is in top form again.
Thank god! I feel like I have been put through the mincer.

I wanted people to know how vaccines can effect their cats... he has to go
back in 3 weeks for the second lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have read some
people space the injections out over a few days? any ideas? suggestions VERY
welcome... thanks in advanced
--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

what are people's view here on boosters every year?
they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.
Recommendations are made on minimum period of immunity, rather than a
possibly maximum.


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

what are people's view here on boosters every year?
they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.
Recommendations are made on minimum period of immunity, rather than a
possibly maximum.


--
Luv'n'Stuff
*~*SooZy*~*
New Pictures added every few days
http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk

From: "~*SooZy*~"

what are people's view here on boosters every year?
they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.

I believe it was Dr. Ron Schultz who said that immunity may last a lifetime but
I'm sure further studies are being done. Here's an interesting article on
the possible link between vaccines and kidney disease:

"PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)
are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,
to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10µg of
CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein plus an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or
one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six
were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed
to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats."

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

From: "~*SooZy*~"

what are people's view here on boosters every year?
they say the truth is no-one is sure low long immunity could last in an
individual cat, for each individual disease, using any one kind of vaccine.

I believe it was Dr. Ron Schultz who said that immunity may last a lifetime but
I'm sure further studies are being done. Here's an interesting article on
the possible link between vaccines and kidney disease:

"PARENTERAL ADMINISTRATION OF FVRCP VACCINES
INDUCES ANTIBODIES AGAINST FELINE RENAL TISSUES.

MR Lappin, WA Jensen, R Chandrashekar, and SD Kinney. From
the Department of Clinical Sciences (Lappin), Colorado State
University, Fort Collins, CO and the Heska Corporation, Fort Collins
CO (Jensen, Chandrashekar, and Kinney).

Chronic renal failure is a common cause of death in cats.
Lymphocytic/plasmacytic interstitial nephritis is common
histopathologically,
suggesting immune-mediated reactions may play a role. Feline
herpesvirus 1,
calicivirus, and panleukopenia virus for use in feline vaccines (FVRCP)
are
commonly grown in Crandall-Reese Feline Kidney (CRFK) cells. As a
consequence, commercially available FVRCP vaccines contain CRFK
proteins.
The objectives of this study were to determine whether cats inoculated
with
FVRCP vaccines develop antibodies against CRFK cell extracts and if so,
to
determine if these antibodies reacted with extracts of feline renal
tissue (FRT).

Fourteen age-matched, mixed-sex, unvaccinated kittens were divided
into seven
pairs. To each pair of kittens, one of the following was administered:
10µg of
CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein SQ; 50µg of CRFK protein plus an
aluminum adjuvant SQ; a FVRCP vaccine for intranasal administration, or
one of
three FVRCP vaccines for SQ administration. The concentration of CRFK
protein
used was comparable to the range detected in the vaccines. Kittens
receiving
CRFK proteins were inoculated every two to four weeks for a total of
eight times
during the study period and kittens receiving vaccines were inoculated
every three
weeks for three inoculations. Serum samples were collected prior to
inoculation
and six months later. ELISAs to detect feline antibodies that bind to
CRFK cell
extracts or FRT extracts were optimized. All sera were assayed in both
ELISAs
and absorbance values calculated. An individual cat was considered
positive for
antibodies against either CRFK cell extracts or FRT extracts if the mean
absorbance value of duplicate post-inoculation wells was greater than
the mean
plus three standard deviations of the 14 pre-inoculation sample
absorbance values.

None of the cats was positive for antibodies against CRFK or FRT
extracts prior
to inoculation. All six kittens inoculated with CRFK proteins were
positive for
anti-CRFK antibodies in the post-inoculation sample; five of these six
kittens were
positive for anti-FRT antibodies. Neither cat inoculated with the
intranasal FVRCP
vaccine was positive for anti-CRFK or anti-FRT antibodies
post-inoculation. Of
the cats inoculated with FVRCP vaccines SQ, five of six and four of six
were
positive for anti-CRFK antibodies or anti-FRT antibodies in the
post-inoculation
sample, respectively.

Administration of FVRCP vaccines SQ to cats can induce antibody
responses to
CRFK proteins and feline renal tissues. Further research will be needed
to define
the role of these autoantibodies in the development of chronic renal
failure in cats."

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Another article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/
query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120090 59&dopt=Abstract
1: Vet Pathol 2002 Mar;39(2):216-27
"Cats differ from mink and ferrets in their response to commercial
vaccines: a histologic comparison of early vaccine reactions.
Carroll EE, Dubielzig RR, Schultz RD.
Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Wisconsin-Madison, 53706, USA. eggerse@s...
Early histologic changes in lesions at vaccine sites were compared in
cats, mink, and ferrets. Twenty-four 4-month-old cats, 20 4-month-old
mink, and 20 12-month-old ferrets were vaccinated with three rabies
virus vaccines, two feline leukemia virus vaccines, alum adjuvant, and
saline. Injection sites were excised at selected time points up to 21
days postvaccination. Histologic examination of the tissue revealed
significant differences among the cats, mink, and ferrets in the local
response to the commercial vaccines. When compared with ferrets and
mink, cats had more lymphocytes in response to all three rabies
vaccines. Production of fibroblasts, collagen, and macrophages differed
among the three killed aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines in cats but did not
differ significantly in mink or ferrets. Cats produced fewer binucleate
cells than did mink or ferrets in response to the two adjuvanted
leukemia virus vaccines. Differences seen in early tissue response of
cats to commercial vaccines may be related to the increased
predisposition of cats to vaccine-associated sarcomas.
PMID: 12009059 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

Another article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/
query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120090 59&dopt=Abstract
1: Vet Pathol 2002 Mar;39(2):216-27
"Cats differ from mink and ferrets in their response to commercial
vaccines: a histologic comparison of early vaccine reactions.
Carroll EE, Dubielzig RR, Schultz RD.
Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Wisconsin-Madison, 53706, USA. eggerse@s...
Early histologic changes in lesions at vaccine sites were compared in
cats, mink, and ferrets. Twenty-four 4-month-old cats, 20 4-month-old
mink, and 20 12-month-old ferrets were vaccinated with three rabies
virus vaccines, two feline leukemia virus vaccines, alum adjuvant, and
saline. Injection sites were excised at selected time points up to 21
days postvaccination. Histologic examination of the tissue revealed
significant differences among the cats, mink, and ferrets in the local
response to the commercial vaccines. When compared with ferrets and
mink, cats had more lymphocytes in response to all three rabies
vaccines. Production of fibroblasts, collagen, and macrophages differed
among the three killed aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines in cats but did not
differ significantly in mink or ferrets. Cats produced fewer binucleate
cells than did mink or ferrets in response to the two adjuvanted
leukemia virus vaccines. Differences seen in early tissue response of
cats to commercial vaccines may be related to the increased
predisposition of cats to vaccine-associated sarcomas.
PMID: 12009059 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

In article ,
"*~*SooZy*~*" wrote:

The breeder I got my kitten from had used Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
5.12. we left it longer under my vets advice as he had been unwell 3 times,
twice before we got him, mouth ulcers, lost the fur and whiskers from his
face, had antibiotics, cleared up came back more antibiotics, cleared up,
then we got him and some of you may of remember he got a shock we think!
with a very high temp of 105 and she wanted to make sure he was well before
given him his jabs.

Well in the UK most vets use live vaccines, but after a lot of research I
decided I wanted killed virus's, I believe if you don't ask for killed they
automatically give live/modified.

Killed virus vaccines have to have much stronger adjuvants, and despite
that they don't induce as strong of immunity and have to be repeated in
an initial series. One single modified-live distemper vaccine would
undoubtedly have protected your cat for 7 years since it was given after
he was old enough for his immune system to respond.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entre...ve&db=PubMed&l
ist_uids=10328440&dopt=Abstract

The only fear with modified-live vaccines is that they could revert to
virulence. This risk is almost nonexistent with modern vaccines.

He had them all inc feline Leukaemia... not Rabies as UK
he was in good health, we got him home and he became really poorly, I rang
the vets spoke to the receptionist (who did get the vet herself to call me
back.) She explained that this sometimes happens in cats... but as long as
he wasn't being sick, diarrhoea, then if so bring him in for an anti
inflammatory jab, which he had before after shock.

"Anti-inflammatory" is generally vet-speak for steroids which depress
the immune system including the bits that create inflammation. So after
challenging your cat's immune system with a vaccination, you promptly
squelched his immune system with steroids!

I'm confused. You have a holistically-oriented breeder who is using
homeopathic nosodes in lieu of vaccination. Does your breeder have no
other recommendations about vaccination and vaccination intervals, or
better yet can't he/she recommend a holistic vet? From the description
of all the ulcers and fevers this sounds like a cat that's going to
require careful management for his whole life. If he were mine I
wouldn't go about that management by beating into submission every
symptom that crops up; rather I'd work with a holistic vet to get to the
root of the problem.

he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
where ever you put him he didn't move :-( I was worried sick! gave him
drips of water from syringe ever 30 mins and some kittyvite which I rubbed
onto his gums. I checked the net and found this a common reaction.....
during the night he started eating, playing and now he is in top form again.
Thank god! I feel like I have been put through the mincer.

I wanted people to know how vaccines can effect their cats... he has to go
back in 3 weeks for the second lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have read some
people space the injections out over a few days? any ideas? suggestions VERY
welcome... thanks in advanced

Immunologically speaking, you'll get the best result if you give
individual disease vaccines at two week intervals.

Good luck, I'm glad your kitten got through his first vaccine reaction
alright. I think I've heard the second is generally much worse once the
system is sensitized.

-Alison in OH

In article ,
"*~*SooZy*~*" wrote:

The breeder I got my kitten from had used Nosode on the kittens, yesterday
Moshi had his 1st injection at 18 weeks he is an indoor only kitten, weighs
5.12. we left it longer under my vets advice as he had been unwell 3 times,
twice before we got him, mouth ulcers, lost the fur and whiskers from his
face, had antibiotics, cleared up came back more antibiotics, cleared up,
then we got him and some of you may of remember he got a shock we think!
with a very high temp of 105 and she wanted to make sure he was well before
given him his jabs.

Well in the UK most vets use live vaccines, but after a lot of research I
decided I wanted killed virus's, I believe if you don't ask for killed they
automatically give live/modified.

Killed virus vaccines have to have much stronger adjuvants, and despite
that they don't induce as strong of immunity and have to be repeated in
an initial series. One single modified-live distemper vaccine would
undoubtedly have protected your cat for 7 years since it was given after
he was old enough for his immune system to respond.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entre...ve&db=PubMed&l
ist_uids=10328440&dopt=Abstract

The only fear with modified-live vaccines is that they could revert to
virulence. This risk is almost nonexistent with modern vaccines.

He had them all inc feline Leukaemia... not Rabies as UK
he was in good health, we got him home and he became really poorly, I rang
the vets spoke to the receptionist (who did get the vet herself to call me
back.) She explained that this sometimes happens in cats... but as long as
he wasn't being sick, diarrhoea, then if so bring him in for an anti
inflammatory jab, which he had before after shock.

"Anti-inflammatory" is generally vet-speak for steroids which depress
the immune system including the bits that create inflammation. So after
challenging your cat's immune system with a vaccination, you promptly
squelched his immune system with steroids!

I'm confused. You have a holistically-oriented breeder who is using
homeopathic nosodes in lieu of vaccination. Does your breeder have no
other recommendations about vaccination and vaccination intervals, or
better yet can't he/she recommend a holistic vet? From the description
of all the ulcers and fevers this sounds like a cat that's going to
require careful management for his whole life. If he were mine I
wouldn't go about that management by beating into submission every
symptom that crops up; rather I'd work with a holistic vet to get to the
root of the problem.

he was very lethargic, high temperature, got as high as 104 at one point,
where ever you put him he didn't move :-( I was worried sick! gave him
drips of water from syringe ever 30 mins and some kittyvite which I rubbed
onto his gums. I checked the net and found this a common reaction.....
during the night he started eating, playing and now he is in top form again.
Thank god! I feel like I have been put through the mincer.

I wanted people to know how vaccines can effect their cats... he has to go
back in 3 weeks for the second lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have read some
people space the injections out over a few days? any ideas? suggestions VERY
welcome... thanks in advanced

Immunologically speaking, you'll get the best result if you give
individual disease vaccines at two week intervals.

Good luck, I'm glad your kitten got through his first vaccine reaction
alright. I think I've heard the second is generally much worse once the
system is sensitized.

-Alison in OH

In article ,
enlightened us with...

He had them all inc feline Leukaemia...

That is overdoing it. His little immune system has to fight over
everything at once.

Most vaccines are not needed and some are actually not recommended. Many
vaccines do not even prevent the cat from getting sick - they just
lessen the severity.

http://critterfixer.com/pages/feline.asp
http://critterfixer.com/pages/v7_vac...mmend_cats.htm
http://www.avma.org/vafstf/rbbroch.asp

-------------------------------------------------
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Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
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-------------------------------------------------