Is Tiki Cat cat food good quality???

With patience akin to a cat's, Rene S., on 10/12/2008 12:00 PM typed:
Please read this article:
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ngerousforcats

Thanks, Rene, I appreciate the reference. However, it is only one webpage, and
by a retired holistic vet, Dr. Jean Hofve. Dr. Hofve may or may not have
included any new, and/or cutting-edge information within this webpage,
especially with her being retired and no longer practicing or consulting. I
mention this just as a detail that should be taken into consideration when
evaluating this information.

In the interest of discussion, I'd like to comment on what Dr. Hofve has posted,
going point by point, below. Since this will be a long post, I'll divide it
into two parts, for consideration of free newsfeed services and their
restrictions. Consider this Part I:

*The fish used in canned pet foods usually includes bones and are high in
phosphorus and magnesium, which can be an issue in cats with a history of
urinary tract disorders or kidney disease. In practice I have seen quite a few
cats develop urinary tract infections and blockages if they eat much fish--even
boneless fish.
---
I believe that Dr. Hofve is referring to canned foods that wouldn't normally be
considered by the discerning cat caretaker. I would also note that the amount
of phosphorus and magnesium in fish bones depend on a) the species of fish, and
b) the environment in which the fish is caught. Including the bone material of
*any* prey species--if there was, say, a ground mouse diet for cats--would
include higher levels of phosphorous and magnesium than just muscle or organ
meat, since bone contains

As to UTI's and FLUTS (Feline Lower Urinary Tract Syndrome), the jury is still
out on whether increased dietary phosphorus and magnesium actually *cause* these
health problems, or aggravate the underlying cause of such conditions. An
incipient and as-yet-unidentified virus has not yet been ruled out. I find it
unusual that Dr. Hofve saw UTI and crystal formation with cats fed boneless
fish, since it *is* the bone that increases the phosphorus and magnesium; I
wonder if the cats in question were not fed boneless fish exclusively, and why
Dr. Hofve didn't note this.
---

* Many cats are sensitive or even allergic to fish; it is one of the top 3 most
common food allergens.
---
This is true, as the top three dietary allergens are as follows: chicken, fish,
and corn. However, and Dr. Hofve herself notes this in the webpage "Food
Allergies in Cats:"
(http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ergi esincats)
"However, an allergy can develop to any protein to which the cat is repeatedly
or constantly exposed." Therefore it follows that one could say that, from an
allergen standpoint, *chicken* could be considered as not beneficial for cats.

The mechanism for dietary allergies has yet to be completely documented; there
will always be some risk for some cats, just as there is some risk for some
humans, depending on genetic background and lineage. The allergen argument
against fish only serves to reinforce the benefits of the rotation diet, so that
a cat isn't exposed to one protein source consistently.

Fish protein as an allergen is also somewhat of a puzzlement, since *fish oil*,
of a quality source and nature, is considered one of the best dietary
supplements for skin and coat support (Omega-3 fatty acid source).
---

* Fish-based foods have high levels of histamine, a protein involved in allergic
reactions.
---
While this may be true (Dr. Hofve doesn't provide supporting data), *any*
protein in a food source is *digested* and *broken down* into its constituent
amino acids. Ingesting histamine will not have any demonstrable effect on the
levels of histamine in the blood, no matter the organism.
---

* Fish tends to be "addictive" to cats. They love it, and will often stage a
"hunger strike" by refusing their regular food in favor of fish. [small edit of
illustrative info for brevity]
---
This is because a cat's sense of smell is 8-12 times more acute than a human's,
and fish oil is a salivary kick-start for cats. They associate the *smell*
with something they really want to eat, and that is why they become patterned to
the scent. I believe this is more true of, say, pure tuna, rather than other
species of fish. Also, if one already supplements with fish oil, this
becomes a non-issue, as the supplemental oil will become the trigger rather than
the food item itself. Again, this supports the benefits of an alternating
protein source diet, so that such patterning isn't allowed to take place.
---

Continued in Part 2 --
--
/\ /\ | "Cats are a mysterious kind of folk.
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | There is more passing in their minds
-T- | than we are aware of."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832)

"Rene S." wrote in message
...
Please read this article:
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ngerousforcats

This ass has already made his mind up.

With patience akin to a cat's, Rene S., on 10/12/2008 12:00 PM typed:
Please read this article:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...ngerousforcats

Thanks, Rene, I appreciate the reference. However, it is only one webpage, and
by a retired holistic vet, Dr. Jean Hofve. Dr. Hofve may or may not have
included any new, and/or cutting-edge information within this webpage,
especially with her being retired and no longer practicing or consulting. I
mention this just as a detail that should be taken into consideration when
evaluating this information.

In the interest of discussion, I'd like to comment on what Dr. Hofve has posted,
going point by point, below. Since this will be a long post, I'll divide it
into two parts, for consideration of free newsfeed services and their
restrictions. Consider this Part 2:

* There is a known link between the feeding of fish-based canned cat foods and
the development of hyperthyroidism in older cats.
---
Again, where is the supporting data? Hearsay also has hyperthyroidism linked to
FVRCP vaccination, yet there doesn't exist any hard-and-fast data on this,
either. Simply because something has a "known link," doesn't mean it has been
proven to be fact. It would be more accurate to say that fish-based canned cat
foods (again, the quality of the said canned foods is not detailed) *may* play a
role in the development of hyperthyroidism in older cats.
---

* Fish may not be safe to feed to cats. Predatory fish at the top of the food
chain, such as tuna and salmon, may contain very elevated levels of heavy metals
(including mercury) as well as PCBs, pesticides, and other toxins. Tilefish
(listed on pet food labels as "ocean whitefish") are among the worst
contaminated, along with king mackerel, shark, and swordfish. These fish are so
toxic that the FDA advises that women of child-bearing age and children should
avoid them entirely'; and they recommend only 1 serving of albacore tuna per
week due to its high mercury levels. If these fish are dangerous to children,
cats are at even more risk!
---
First, according 2001 sampling data (performed regularly by the EPA, reports
available at their website), shark (average value for all species) topped the
list at 4.5 parts per million of mercury, followed by swordfish at 3.2 ppm,
tilefish at 3.7 ppm, mackerel at 1.6 ppm, large fresh tuna (subspecies, as in
whether albacore or ahi not defined) at 1.3 ppm, snapper at 1.4 ppm, North
American lobster at 1.3 ppm, trout (rainbow) at 1.2 ppm. All other fish were
well below 1.0 ppm, with salmon (average of all species) at .18 ppm. Research
done on preserved museum fish show fish overall had similar mercury levels over
100 years ago, so this is not a new issue--the key is that industrial pollution
affects near-land fish species more than others, and fish that are farmed show a
trend to collect more industrial pollution by virtue of their habitat (or lack
thereof).

Second, the FDA limit for human consumption of mercury is 1.0 ppm, with the EPA
limit being five times lower. However, both claim to be ten times lower than
the lowest level associated with the onset of adverse effects. Cats can tolerate
*ten times* higher levels compared to humans before showing signs of effects.
This doesn't mean that we should adopt a cavalier view about how much mercury
a cat is exposed to, but it *does* mean that they aren't apt to be as fragile as
a human fetus. Ingesting fish carries risk, as there will *always* be
industrial pollution exposure in general, and mercury in specific. The educated
cat caretaker should consider the species and origin of fish in question for the
cat, just as he/she should for his/her own diet.

Third, Tiki Cat addresses the mercury and industrial pollution concern,
specifically using mackerel, sardines, tilapia, and salmon wild caught in the
South Pacific waters, where pollutants have been tested to be at the lowest
levels outside of Arctic waters. The tuna used in their food is Ahi tuna, a
subspecies native to the South Pacific area--it should not be even remotely
considered akin to Albacore tuna, like that canned for human consumption, which
is a "white fish," not red. Ahi tuna has more in common with salmon than the
other species of tuna.

Fourth, proper supplementation with vitamin E and selenium, which are
normally included in any feline diet formulated according to AAFCO
standards, will greatly prevent any oxidation damage from mercury.

Last, the take-home lessons for this point are the following: a) fish will
always have some level of mercury, with some species averaging higher amounts
depending on where they matured and were caught; b) the amount of mercury can be
minimized when good quality fish species and sources are used; c) the toxic
effects of mercury will be greatly decreased/prevented with proper
supplementation of vitamin E and selenium; and d) because of certain fish
species carrying a higher industrial pollutant load than, say, poultry, it
isn't advisable to feed fish *exclusively* to your feline companion, even
Tiki Cat--an advisement, once again, for rotating your food protein source.
---

* The vast majority of salmon today comes from factory-farmed fish. [details on
farmed fish snipped for brevity]
---
This is true of fish-based canned cat foods *other* than Tiki Cat, and becomes
a non-issue in light of the wild sources used for Tiki Cat formulas.
---

* Farmed salmon who escape their pens (and they do) outcompete [sic] and
interbreed with wild salmon, as well as transmit diseases. [details on sea lice
and other farmed fish parasites snipped for brevity]
---
While it is true that farmed salmon escape their pens and often interbreed with
wild salmon, it is rare that the resulting fry of that union will survive, as
they lack the hybrid vigor of the wild salmon. Also, because farmed salmon are
generally anemic and do carry a higher parasite load, they rarely, if ever, have
the health or ability to "out-compete" with wild salmon. They do pass on
diseases and parasites, but because the overall health of wild salmon is much
more robust, they don't tend to succumb to these health issues to the same
degree as farmed salmon.

The concern at this time, with regard to wild salmon populations, is an overall
decrease in the populations due to interbreeding between wild and farmed, and
the non-survival of the resulting fry. In other words, the fry of wild + farmed
salmon are wimpy fish and end up being something else's dinner instead of
surviving to perpetuate the species. A lose-lose situation overall, including
for the something gaining dinner from it.
---

* "Organic" salmon is also farm-raised, and does not have to comply with USDA
organic standards. In fact, there is no regulatory agency in the United States
that sets organic standards for fish. The contaminant level of organic farmed
salmon may be just as high as that of conventional farmed salmon.

This is true and shows the failing of the "organic" method as it pertains to
aquaculture. However, this is also a non-issue when specifically discussing the
quality of Tiki Cat, given this canned food's documented sources.
---

To conclude my post, I believe that Dr. Hofve raises some valid concerns about
_poor_ fish sources used in poor quality canned cat foods. However, I don't
believe this information should be used to paint *good quality* fish foods, such
as Tiki Cat, with the same negative brush as, say, Fancy Feast. I hold the
point of view that fish is *not* "bad" to feed to cats, as long as it is a
quality species and source, is properly supplemented, and is part of a rotating
protein diet. Given the fact that fish as a protein source will *always* carry
higher industrial pollutants than land-based food animals, I feel it unwise to
feed fish *exclusively*. Variety in the diet is more than the "spice of life,"
is it the key to more robust immune system and overall health.

As humans should do with their _own_ food sources: read the label, contact the
manufacturer with questions, educate yourself as to the source and ingredients
of what goes into the can.

(To read the complete statements of Dr. Hofve, please go to the webpage
referenced above. Statement details were only edited for brevity and not
content.)

Thanks for reading --
--
/\ /\ | "Cats are a mysterious kind of folk.
^o o^ D.K. "Cat" Kraft | There is more passing in their minds
-T- | than we are aware of."
~ Lynnwood, WA |
___oOO___OOo___ | -- Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832)

I am sorry I started this thread. I just wanted to know if I am
harming my kittens giving them this food, and this has turned into a
disturbing battle of internet wit. A simple answer would be
sufficient.

After speaking to others, I am alternating Tiki Cat with Wellness,
Weruva and Merrick with mostly Turkey, Chicken and other fowl
flavors.

"Docberk" wrote in message
...
I am sorry I started this thread. I just wanted to know if I am
harming my kittens giving them this food, and this has turned into a
disturbing battle of internet wit. A simple answer would be
sufficient.

After speaking to others, I am alternating Tiki Cat with Wellness,
Weruva and Merrick with mostly Turkey, Chicken and other fowl
flavors.

I would ditch the "Tiki-cat." Fish foods are not a good idea.

a longtime regular troll,
uses "cat lover" as a pretense to spontaneously insult/praise others,
like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde


"cybercat" cyberpurrs yahoo.com wrote:

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From: "cybercat" cyberpurrs yahoo.com
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Subject: Is Tiki Cat cat food good quality???
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"Wayne Mitchell" gwmitchell104 pobox.com wrote in message
news:b091f4hkg1nem0jr4j7fl2of53k89jle1l 4ax.com...
"D. K. Kraft" kraftycats verizon.net wrote:

I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that I was moronic or a
spammer by
virtue of the above information.

Why, the way she always comes to conclusions -- by great leaps and
bounds.

If you've been reading here for any time at all, I'm sure you're aware
that being called a moron by cybercat doesn't make you in any way
special. It's not an honor one has to earn.
--


It's true. God made most morons stupid. Take you for example.

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
a longtime regular troll,
uses "cat lover" as a pretense to spontaneously insult/praise others,
like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde


"cybercat" cyberpurrs yahoo.com wrote:

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Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Subject: Is Tiki Cat cat food good quality???
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"Wayne Mitchell" gwmitchell104 pobox.com wrote in message
news:b091f4hkg1nem0jr4j7fl2of53k89jle1l 4ax.com...
"D. K. Kraft" kraftycats verizon.net wrote:

I fail to see how you came to the conclusion that I was moronic or a
spammer by
virtue of the above information.

Why, the way she always comes to conclusions -- by great leaps and
bounds.

If you've been reading here for any time at all, I'm sure you're aware
that being called a moron by cybercat doesn't make you in any way
special. It's not an honor one has to earn.
--


It's true. God made most morons stupid. Take you for example.



Eyyyu. Mark Benson has a hard-on for me.

Back on your meds, son.