Outdoor cat poisoning - report back

"Steve G" wrote in message
ups.com...

Mary wrote:
(...)


Nonsense. You are neglecting your responsibilities to your pets.
Those of us who keep them indoors are not.
(...)
You are wrong for endangering the animals that trust you.

But letting your indoor cat become grossly obese is OK - or do you only
count outdoor dangers in your tirade? Or any dangers *you* expose your
cats to don't count?

There are many less dangers inside than outside, Steve. You have resorted
to the lamest argument of all. And my fat cat was fat when she got here.
We're working on it.



If you felt your cats were irreplaceable
you would not endanger them. No venom in that. What you hate,
and others who are equally irresponsible hate, is being reminded
of what you are really doing when you let them out unattended.

Ah, so all cat owners in the UK and NZ - yes, their cats are simply
disposible objects. All 50 million or so.

And the crusade and the xenophobia roll on...


Do you realize how common it is for people who cannot win
arguments to resort to attempting to discredit those who are
winning the argument? It happens as many times as people are
not bright enough to "win" by other means. And it just makes
you look like an ass.

It is dangerous outside for unattended cats--everywhere there are cars,
and there are cars everywhere. Where there are no cars there are
generally wild animals that can hurt them. On the other hand, where
there are no cars there are generally no people. You are, quite
simply, wrong. On top of that, you want to endanger the lives
of the animals you are charged to protect and FEEL GOOD
about it. I have no problem with people who disagree with me.
I have a real problem with people who endanger animals. You
cannot argue that it is safe outside ANYWHERE for unattended
cats. There just is not a way to argue it. And yet you do. This makes
you--and those who attempt the same lame arguments--an ass of
the greatest magnitude.

"Ashley" wrote

I am sure your cats are not miserable -
if an indoor life is all they have known they are probably content. But
again, unless I was forced to by circumstances outside my control, I would
not choose that life for my cats.


Your cats will be dead long before mine, or CatNips.
That says it all.

"Ashley" wrote in message
...

"kitkat" wrote in message
om...
Ashley wrote:


He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

This is the part where you lost me. I thought you were reporting back
about risks in NZ.

I was. But I also wanted to point out that the desire to maintain outdoor
access for cats is widespread, if not universal, among animal care
professionals here, and that while you guys have totally assimilated that
world view, most of the rest of the world hasn't!


It is a conbination of laziness (it is far more convenient to open that
door than clean the cat box, isn't it, old girl?) and the old, stupid,
provincial, Victorian "be free wild thing be free" that we see in
so many Brits and Europeans. A clue for the clueless: we
DOMESTICATED them. Then we invented automobiles.
Voila! This means that outdoor cats mean lots of dead cats.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Ashley" wrote in message
...
OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:

Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
seen
a case. That's never. However, it is an issue in the UK, where he has
also
practised, and where it is the leading cause of cat poisoning. It makes
sense that this is probably a climate issue - the UK is colder, people
are
more likely to have antifreeze around and use it. The leading cause of
cat
poisoning in New Zealand is paracetamol, given by ignorant owners. He
has
referred me to the Vet Poisoning Information Service, a British
organisation, for more info, which I shall look up when I have more
time.
But he also said poisoning is not the issue with cats that it is for
dogs
simply because cats don't eat everything they encounter, and that if I
check
out the VPIS, I will see that cat poisoning hardly rates.

Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects to
this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
having
a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would
have
to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of
the
newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower levels,
but
New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.

He also commented that he was not impressed with the American method of
managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all times.

ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this issue
has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all of
you
go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the balls
and
chains off first!).


You have made great sense, here, CN, but it's the old thing Mark Twain
said: Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
pig. I swear to you, I still believe that it all goes back to an underlying
belief that animals are disposable. I have seen this everywhere--but
particularly in places with strong British influences. What is insidious
about it is that they want to feel that way and endanger their animals
in ways that reflect their feelings, but don't you dare CALL it what it
IS. They just do not want to hear that the emperor has no new
clothes. It would be laughable if except for the fact that so many
lovely cats are getting slaughtered due to this attitude and the
dangerous practices it engenders.

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Ashley" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

ROTFLMAOWTIME!! OK folks, hang it up, the ultimate argument on this
issue
has been made. Ashley's vet said cats should go outside, so now all
of
you
go open your doors and let your cats outside (be sure to take the
balls
and
chains off first!).

So you're another one who really likes putting distorted words in
people's
mouths, huh? Lord, this newsgroup is full of them.

I see you snipped out the section of your post I was responding to. Here
I'll add it back so you can read it again (not that I think that will
help!)...

Ashley wrote..."He also commented that he was not impressed with the
American method of managing risks, ie keeping all cats indoors at all
times.
"

Care to interpret that differently than the way it did???



You're going beyond the call of duty here, CN. This is exactly
what Steve G. and Alison do--and I never take the time to
back up and shove the **** back in their faces, as such blatant
sophistry just is not worth it. Just like using tactics that demonize
or discredit one's adversary, it's the last refuge of the dim-witted.

"Meghan Noecker" wrote in message
...

"Ashley" wrote in message
...
OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful. His response:


Rat poison is also not an issue in New Zealand. There are two aspects
to
this. 1. Cats won't eat rat poisons. 2. The older rat poisons started
having
a secondary effect only at the level of about 5 rats - ie, cats would
have
to eat 5 rats in a row before they started getting any ill effects, and
those effects would not be fatal at that level of consumption. Some of
the
newer poisons being developed do have secondary effects at lower
levels,
but
New Zealand regulations keep those poisons out of the country.


I'm replying to this one since i missed the original post.

This is interesting to hear. Is it possible to get more information on
the rat poison? Here, it is very common for poisoned animals to then
poison animals further up the food chain. The poison adds up and
kills. I am curious to know if we use a stronger poison than
neceesary, or something completely different. It seems odd that a
something that will kill a hardy rat would not hurt a cat. 5 adult
rats here would easily weigh as much as my smaller cats. I would think
one poisoned rat could easily make my cat sick.

And considering that rat poison is usually put inside some form of
bait, I would think it would be enticing to cats as well.

--


It is, Ashley is just pulling this stuff out of her ass.

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas
"CatNipped" wrote in message
...

SNIP

Oh sweetie, I'm perfectly calm. To my knowledge I haven't called anyone
any
names in these threads (and if I've just forgotten and I have, please
point
it out so I can apologize). I *am* stating my opinions firmly because I
care very much about the welfare of cats - *all* cats. Even if it doesn't
worry you to let your cats out, it worries *me* for them!

No, you have'nt gotten into namecalling. Although you did call Ashley
ignorant & (his?Her?) argument seems pretty well reasearched. Please do not
misunderstand, I worry EVERY time I let the hoolikittens out. I've taken
what precautions I can with that, I've spent lots of time out there with
them, made sure they're afraid of cars (If I start up my van, they bolt for
the cat door), discouraged leaving the yard (muscat is good for this,
chablis I've seen crossing the road)... Usually their forays into the
outside world don't last more than a couple of hours at a time (less if the
weather is foul), if they last longer, I go looking for the missing feline &
so far have always found them, in the yard, mucking about, looking at me
like 'Gee hooman, don't be so uptight'. So, I worry & let them have their
open air fun.

On the other side of the argument, however, I have read
"obsessive-compulsive", "over-egged" (whatever the heck that means!),
"holier-than-thou pontificating", and in lots and lots of other words
(which
I don't have the time now to google) the implication that Americans are
being overly risk conscious, unaware that the world exists outside of
their
borders, and basically have our collective heads up our collective
posteriors (just another angle of America bashing when it gets down to
it -
very condescending).

No condesending intended, but, ever since 9/11 the 'risk conciousness' in
the USA has cranked up several notches about everything! Heavily encouraged
by your Government.... And why not? A paranoid population is way easier to
controll. It's happened to a smaller degree here in Canada, we passed a
security bill too... But it's kind of like a 'Diet Patriot Act'... Still bad
for you, but easier to swallow. Back to cats... As much as I worry when I
let the furballs out, I've spent enough time with them outside to know they
LOVE it! And I want my hoolikittens to be happy... So I swallow my fear &
let them play.

However, I am getting out of this debate. As I told Ashley, I'll only
bang
my head against a brick wall until it hurts, not until I'm bloodied and
obviously everything I've had to say on this subject has fallen on deaf
ears
(er, eyes). I will keep your kitties, and Ashley's kitties, in my prayers
and sincerely hope that I don't see anyone here again posting about how
they
lost their precious cats to the dangers of the outside world.

Thanks, I hope I never have to post a missing/killed by car post myself. Id
be devestated.

Not to continue the argument, but just as a point of information...
Megan,
Phil, or Mary (or whoever else may have been posting here for a long time,
since I've only been here for a little while)... give me just a guestimate
of how many people you've seen who posted here over the years saying
something like, "Fluffy has gone missing", or "Mittens was hit by a cat",
or
"Muffy was mauled by a dog", or "Ajax has an abcess from a cat fight"?
Ten,
twenty, thirty per year? Less? More?

Chablis has had a couple of abcesses, highly treatable.... Bottom line, I
respect your choice to have indoor only pets... Please give us
indoor/outdoor pet folks the same courtesey... Luv ya.

--
Mathew
Butler to 2 kittens: Chablis & Muscat
En Vino Veritas

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...
"Ashley" wrote in message
...

"CatNipped" wrote in message
...


Ashley, I don't need to read anything on this subject. Unlike some I
have
two assets which tell me what to do about my cats regarding keeping
them
in
or letting them out, they're called common sense and observational
skills.


You still don't get it, do you? I am not in the United States. My cats
do
not face the dangers cats in the United States face. The world outside
your
borders is different.

I have no objection to you managing your cats and keeping them safe in
the
way that you think is best for your environment. I can understand that
in
some of the environments described, it would be best to keep cats
inside.
What I *do* object to is people who, based on their experiences of their
environments, then extrapolate to the fanatical, immovable belief that
all
cats in all environments should be kept indoors. That is plain
ignorance.

What I also object to is the unwillinginess to even consider that the
world
is not all as you see it from your window.

Now you're backtracking? You said in other posts that there *are* risks
in
NZ, but you're willing to take those risks for your cats (how kind of
you).

Tell me that there are no cars in NZ. Tell me that there are no sicko cat
torturers in NZ. Tell me that there are no poisons available in NZ. Tell
me that there are *NO* dangers to outdoor cats in NZ. Tell me any of that
and I'll know you're lying.

*YOU* still don't get it. *I'M* not willing to take *ANY* risks with my
cats, no matter how remote they may be. *I* would be devastated if *I*
let
something happen to my cats because *I* was too lazy to interact with
them,
play with them, keep them amused and happy and, oh yeah, clean their
litterboxes twice a cay!


I get it. And I'm with you all the way, sister!

"Phil P." wrote in message
...

"Ashley" wrote in message
...

OK, as promised, I quizzed the vet, who was most helpful.

What type of vet is he, a backwoods, large animal farm vet!? LOL!


His response:

Antifreeze poisoning simply isn't an issue in New Zealand. He has never
seen
a case. That's never.

"Never"? Are you his only client or does he have another? How can he be
so
sure he's never seen a case... if he's never seen a case!? Has he ever
seen
a case of acute renal failure? If so, how did he know with absolute
certainty that the ARF wasn't caused by EG toxicity, huh?



Now, now, Phil, I am sure Ashley's vet is every bit as bright as she is.

"Diane L. Schirf" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
"Ashley" wrote:

For example, if you clicked on the "About fab" link, you'd find this

Cats are an endless source of fascination, but back in 1958 when the
Feline
Advisory Bureau (FAB) was founded by Joan Judd, little was really known
about them or their veterinary needs. FAB gathered information from a
variety of sources and funded vets to specialise in feline care and so
had a
major influence on early advances in veterinary treatment.

Great marketing copy! Another unfounded assertion dressed up to sell.

--


The FELINE ADVISORY BOARD!! Wahhhhh hahaha!