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#21
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I´m not going to go over the whole thing again. The only thing I will
say is that if what you and Hill´s state were in fact substanciated, cats in zoos would not be fed such a rich phosphorus diet and those two cats fed eggs and bacon for breakfast (remember bacon has a lot of sodium) would never have lived that long. I also suggest you read more on metabolic acidosis and how it affects proteins, bones and kidneys. In one of your posts you said your cats died at 19, 20 and 22. What did they die of? What did you feed them? How often did you vaccinate them? Did they have any health problems? |
#22
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#23
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#24
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Liz, this is so hypocritical of you!! LOL!! Why don't you provide ONE
reference for cats that have suffered deleterious effects from eating foods preserved w/ ethoxyquin (in the levels used in cat food)?? which you have failed to do (yet here you are using the same request for something entirely different?) Of course you could probably kill yourself right now if you ingested enough eq, but you are wanting a reference for the "amounts found in cat foods"?? How about you follow your own advice for once? LOL!!!! You´re absolutely right Gauby. I do sound hypocritical. The difference is ethoxyquin is fat-soluble, that is, it may build up in the system and in fact it does at the levels used by pet food manufacturers. Calcium, phosphorus and sodium are hydrophilic (soluble in water), so excess is easily eliminated by kidneys in a healthy individual with proper consumption of water. The fact that eq was not allowed in human foods in a concentration above 0.5 ppm and that it was banned in many countries should should be enough evidence for anyone in fact concerned with their pet. Also remember that prolylene glycol was used extensively in pet foods before it was banned. "However, *recent reports* in the veterinary literature of scientifically sound studies have shown that propylene glycol reduces the red blood cell survival time, renders red blood cells more susceptible to oxidative damage, and has other adverse effects in cats consuming the substance at levels found in soft-moist food. In light of this new data, CVM amended the regulations to expressly prohibit the use of propylene glycol in cat foods." David A. Dzanis, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN Now, why would a smart person wait for eq to be banned? I´d rather not feed it to my pets ever. |
#25
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Liz, this is so hypocritical of you!! LOL!! Why don't you provide ONE
reference for cats that have suffered deleterious effects from eating foods preserved w/ ethoxyquin (in the levels used in cat food)?? which you have failed to do (yet here you are using the same request for something entirely different?) Of course you could probably kill yourself right now if you ingested enough eq, but you are wanting a reference for the "amounts found in cat foods"?? How about you follow your own advice for once? LOL!!!! You´re absolutely right Gauby. I do sound hypocritical. The difference is ethoxyquin is fat-soluble, that is, it may build up in the system and in fact it does at the levels used by pet food manufacturers. Calcium, phosphorus and sodium are hydrophilic (soluble in water), so excess is easily eliminated by kidneys in a healthy individual with proper consumption of water. The fact that eq was not allowed in human foods in a concentration above 0.5 ppm and that it was banned in many countries should should be enough evidence for anyone in fact concerned with their pet. Also remember that prolylene glycol was used extensively in pet foods before it was banned. "However, *recent reports* in the veterinary literature of scientifically sound studies have shown that propylene glycol reduces the red blood cell survival time, renders red blood cells more susceptible to oxidative damage, and has other adverse effects in cats consuming the substance at levels found in soft-moist food. In light of this new data, CVM amended the regulations to expressly prohibit the use of propylene glycol in cat foods." David A. Dzanis, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN Now, why would a smart person wait for eq to be banned? I´d rather not feed it to my pets ever. |
#26
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Phil, I don´t know if I shared this renal survey with the group
before. This survey was done with 19 veterinary internists/urologists/nephrologists. Notice that many of them do not feel phosphorus is detrimental enough to recommend a kidney diet as soon as CRF is diagnozed, incliding Prof. Polzin, one of the gods according to Steve. Also notice that *all* of them keep track of blood pH/metabolic acidosis (question 3). Steve´s allegations are nothing but marketing. Let me also inform you that the pH of tap water varies from region to region. It can be as low as 5.5 and as high as 10. Steve says Hill´s diets are formulated to result in a urinary pH between ? and ? (don´t care to remember those numbers). Now how can he state that if water in different regions has different pH? They would need to do a specific diet for every region they sell their product in. My tap water here has a pH of 8, so acidified diets here do not result in a urinary pH as low as it does to a cat who lives in a region where tap water is more acidic. I also found another interesting thing: Regulatory aspects of diets, supplements, and nutraceuticals. David A. Dzanis, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN Dzanis Consulting & Collaborations, Santa Clarita, CA 91350-2713, USA. The number of pet foods commercially available for veterinary use, both complete diets and dietary supplements, has been rapidly expanding in recent years. Veterinarians use and recommend nutritional products in their daily practice, and this use should meet the ethical constraints of veterinary medical practice and be based on scientifically sound premises. However, it is also important to be aware that nutritional products intended to treat or prevent disease or to affect the structure or function of the body in a manner apart from what is normally ascribed for food are considered "drugs" under the law. Most of the "veterinary medical foods" and "nutraceuticals" on the market bear claims on the labels or in promotional literature that would establish intent as drugs, but under the current regulatory conditions, THEY HAVE DONE SO WITHOUT MEETING THE CRITERIA NEEDED FOR MOST DRUGS. Thus, the lack of government oversight of therapeutic claims places the burden onto the veterinarian to carefully scrutinize products for safety and efficacy. Hill´s Science Diet is nothing but cheap claims, cheap food, and veterinary bribing. They use the exact same marketing strategy as the pharmaceutical industry: bribe and pressure the docs. |
#27
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Phil, I don´t know if I shared this renal survey with the group
before. This survey was done with 19 veterinary internists/urologists/nephrologists. Notice that many of them do not feel phosphorus is detrimental enough to recommend a kidney diet as soon as CRF is diagnozed, incliding Prof. Polzin, one of the gods according to Steve. Also notice that *all* of them keep track of blood pH/metabolic acidosis (question 3). Steve´s allegations are nothing but marketing. Let me also inform you that the pH of tap water varies from region to region. It can be as low as 5.5 and as high as 10. Steve says Hill´s diets are formulated to result in a urinary pH between ? and ? (don´t care to remember those numbers). Now how can he state that if water in different regions has different pH? They would need to do a specific diet for every region they sell their product in. My tap water here has a pH of 8, so acidified diets here do not result in a urinary pH as low as it does to a cat who lives in a region where tap water is more acidic. I also found another interesting thing: Regulatory aspects of diets, supplements, and nutraceuticals. David A. Dzanis, DVM, Ph.D., DACVN Dzanis Consulting & Collaborations, Santa Clarita, CA 91350-2713, USA. The number of pet foods commercially available for veterinary use, both complete diets and dietary supplements, has been rapidly expanding in recent years. Veterinarians use and recommend nutritional products in their daily practice, and this use should meet the ethical constraints of veterinary medical practice and be based on scientifically sound premises. However, it is also important to be aware that nutritional products intended to treat or prevent disease or to affect the structure or function of the body in a manner apart from what is normally ascribed for food are considered "drugs" under the law. Most of the "veterinary medical foods" and "nutraceuticals" on the market bear claims on the labels or in promotional literature that would establish intent as drugs, but under the current regulatory conditions, THEY HAVE DONE SO WITHOUT MEETING THE CRITERIA NEEDED FOR MOST DRUGS. Thus, the lack of government oversight of therapeutic claims places the burden onto the veterinarian to carefully scrutinize products for safety and efficacy. Hill´s Science Diet is nothing but cheap claims, cheap food, and veterinary bribing. They use the exact same marketing strategy as the pharmaceutical industry: bribe and pressure the docs. |
#28
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#29
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#30
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Hill´s Science Diet is nothing but cheap claims, cheap food, and
veterinary bribing. They use the exact same marketing strategy as the pharmaceutical industry: bribe and pressure the docs. You've already shown to be a kook. More delusional rantings from a madwoman! You're spinning as hard as you can on this one! Care to explain why millions of pets thrive on Science Diet and/or have had their lives SAVED on Hill's theraputic diets?? No, you won't because 1) you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to anything on this ng......and 2) you have a personal agenda that is NOT backed up by facts. But thanks for playing....please drive thru! |
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