Waaah, help me, please.

We've now had Marbles 2 weeks. He's a darling, sweet kitty that purrs all the
time, potties where he's supposed to, doesn't have any horrible habits but...my
original kitties, Scottie and Abbey, are horrified of him.

We kept Marbles confined to two rooms for about 4 days when we first got him.
Scottie and Abbey did not seem to mind that there was another cat in the house.
There was no hissing at the door or paws under the door or any major interest
shown by any of the concerned parties. So, on the 4th day, we put a baby gate
up on his door. This has been what we have done in the past. Well, about 2
minutes later, he jumped it and was out in the rest of the house so end of that
plan. For the next several days, we let him be out with them except when we
were at work or asleep (which is the majority of the time except on weekends).
A few times, they all laid close to each other in the family room and once he
and Scottie ate some grass about a foot apart. But, mostly, there is posturing
by both Scottie and Marbles and twice there has been a shrieking cat fight with
minimal contact. Abbey mostly hisses at Marbles. But on Sunday,
inadvertently, Marbles somehow chased Scottie and Abbey back into the 2 rooms
and there they have remained for 4 days now. They hide under the bed and only
come out if the door is shut and he is locked out. So, once again, while we
are at work or asleep, they are locked in and when we are home and awake, we
let Marbles in. He will lay under the bed with them and nothing happens, no
growling or hissing. He will lay about a foot away from them. If they happen
to be out from under the bed when he comes into the 2 rooms, the posturing
begins, primarily on his part, directed at Scottie. Scottie holds his ground
for a few minutes and then bolts under the bed with Marbles chasing him. This
is making me ill. I feel so bad for Scottie and Abbey to be prisoners in their
own home while he has free rein. I'm sure they're miserable. Once we shut him
out at night, they get in bed with us and act semi-normal but they seem to be
horrified of him. He is smaller than both of them. They are all
neutered/spayed and have been that way since they were youngsters. Scottie is
7, Marbles is 6, Abbey is 3. Marbles is from a six cat family where he
supposedly got along wonderfully with the other 5 cats (I have emailed his
former mom and this is what she tells me). Scottie has lived with 4 other cats
during the time we've had him and Abbey has lived with 3 others. It was not
all lovey-dovey with them all but there was no fighting, just ignoring of the
others and an occasional hissing or swatting incident. Will this ever resolve?

I have 2 Feliway diffusers at each end of the house so everyone is getting a
whiff of that. One has been in place for almost a week, the other for about 4
days. I know it can take awhile to work but I also know it doesn't always
work. I sincerely fear that Scottie and Abbey will never, ever come out if he
is in the room with them. I am afraid to just let him have free run because
I'm afraid they will freak out and start pottying under the bed and quit eating
and we all know that it is very bad when cats quit eating. Therefore, I lock
him out those times when we are not around so they can eat and relax and potty.
Tony thinks we should not close any doors anymore and let them work it out
but, as I said, I'm afraid Scottie and Abbey will never come out, will become
more neurotic, and wind up miserable, unhappy cats. Scottie is a former feral
and so is quite sensitive but since he's always gotten along with our other
cats, I never thought this would happen or I would not have gotten another cat.

Some of my friends and my mom (who is 2,000 miles away) think I owe my first
loyalty to Scottie and Abbey and should return Marbles. He is from a no-kill
rescue group who would take him back and then he would be back to life in a
cage until someone else adopts him and he will have the stigma of not getting
along with other cats on his adoption card. We love him now, too, and don't
want to get rid of him. I would feel like a failure if I did that. I can't
remember how long it has taken us to integrate other cats in the past; I know
there were some rough times but this is seeming like it is worse and longer. I
guess we should have gotten a kitten but I wanted to adopt an older cat since
they are harder to place and we have integrated adult cats before.

I feel Marbles is generally the aggressor and I don't understand why. We have
no other room to lock Marbles into in order to get Scottie and Abbey out of
these back rooms. We could do the bathroom but Marbles is a very vocal and
loud cat so I know he would be howling if we put him in there and Scottie and
Abbey would be too afraid to come out of those rooms then anyway. I think part
of the problem is Marbles' vocalness. He walks around meowing much of the time
and I think Scottie and Abbey interpret that as aggression even though he seems
to do it all the time even when they're not around. The only time he is not
excessively vocal is if he is laying under the bed with them or close by them.
I think he wants to like them but can't stop showing aggression.

Am I being unfair to S and A? Am I ruining their lives? Will this ever work
out? Should I take him back? We would miss him and feel awful but is that the
only solution? Does it absolutely have to work out in time or is it possible
that we could fast forward 6 months and things would still be the same? Should
we do as Tony wants and somehow drag S and A out from under the bed, toss them
into the other part of the house, and prevent them from being able to get back
under the bed and force the 3 of them to co-exist? Should we continue the
separation? Should I give Marbles' time-outs whenever he aggresses toward
them? Should I squirt him with a spray bottle when he begins to posture? Is
it still within the bounds of normality that they are hostile or if it's still
going on, does it mean it will never resolve? Would clomicalm help?

I've read all the cat intro articles but no one gives a time frame or says what
to do if it doesn't seem to be working. Right now, Marbles is sound asleep on
top of the bed while S and A are underneath. Last night, Marbles and Scottie
briefly laid on top of the bed together without incident. It seems that if
Scottie is standing up or sitting up that Marbles then aggresses but if S is
laying down, M is not aggressive. But poor Scottie, I would like for him to be
able to stand and walk again in his own home. I think Abbey, who is very close
to S, is following his lead. On her own, I don't think she would be quite as
fearful. Can this family be saved?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human." (Loren Eisely)

"MacCandace" wrote in message
...
We've now had Marbles 2 weeks. He's a darling, sweet kitty that purrs all
the
time, potties where he's supposed to, doesn't have any horrible habits
but...my
original kitties, Scottie and Abbey, are horrified of him.

snip .

Am I being unfair to S and A? Am I ruining their lives? Will this ever
work
out? Should I take him back? We would miss him and feel awful but is
that the
only solution? Does it absolutely have to work out in time or is it
possible
that we could fast forward 6 months and things would still be the same?
Should
we do as Tony wants and somehow drag S and A out from under the bed, toss
them
into the other part of the house, and prevent them from being able to get
back
under the bed and force the 3 of them to co-exist? Should we continue the
separation? Should I give Marbles' time-outs whenever he aggresses toward
them? Should I squirt him with a spray bottle when he begins to posture?
Is
it still within the bounds of normality that they are hostile or if it's
still
going on, does it mean it will never resolve? Would clomicalm help?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye
other
than human." (Loren Eisely)


Candace,

I think you need to start the process all over again by keeping the cats
separate, and this time you need to take much *more* time before you permit
Marbles to be in the same room with Scottie and Abbey. I took a full 6 weeks
introducing Holly to Duffy. In that case, I knew Holly would be the
aggressor because of a previous situation with her and my sister's cats, but
you also now have a warning that the introduction will not go quickly for
your cats. I *do not* agree with those who say you should return Marbles,
but I do think you need to plan on some extra "steps" in the introduction.

I kept Duffy in a separate room when I first adopted him. After a week, a
friend located a damaged unfinished door. He cut a large square out of the
bottom of the door and covered it with wire mesh (actually, it is the type
of grill that is often mounted on the bottom of screen doors to protect them
from damage - sturdy and smooth, with no rough edges). He temporarily
replaced the bedroom door with the new screened door so that Holly and Duffy
could get up-close without any danger to either of them. He removed the
hardware (hinges and doorknob from the permanent door and mounted them on
the temporary door, a process that was later reversed when we replaced the
permanent door. This worked well, but an inexpensive screen door could be
used for this same purpose. In fact, Megan has done this a number of times,
and she spends less than $20.00 by buying a very cheap screen door and using
the hardware from the permanent door for this purpose. This is a variation
on your attempt to use a baby gate, but it would be much more secure. I
spent a great deal of time in the room with Duffy during this time, but I
was always careful to lavish lots of praise and affection on Holly whenever
I exited the room - I didn't want her to feel neglected or displaced. I also
left a radio on (tuned to classical or "easy listening" stations) when I
left Duffy alone in the room. In addition, I would allocate some time each
evening when I would place Holly in the computer room and let Duffy roam
throughout the rest of the house. This gave Duffy an opportunity to become
familiar with the house, but it also distributed his scent so that Holly
would become used to it.

My next step was to place tuna on two ends of a long platter and slip it
under the door so the two cats could eat "together." The idea was to place a
plate with special-treat food under the door (with food on each side of the
door) so the cats would learn to associate something "good" with being in
close proximity when they ate the treats. Eventually, I began to give Duffy
the run of the house along with Holly, but only under close supervision. I
gradually increased the amount of time the two were together and soon didn't
need to supervise them. However, I did not leave them alone in the house.
About five weeks into this process, I had a week of vacation. This was the
ideal time to let them really get to know each other. Throughout the week, I
gave them more and more time together - first all day, then both day and
night. By the time we approached the sixth week, both cats had the full run
of the house at all times, and then I began to leave the house for short
periods of time (first only an hour at a time, then would go back to check
on them). By the end of that week, they were together at all times. This
very slow, gradual transition has really paid off. I adopted Duffy at the
end of February 2003, and my two furbabies are now very comfortable
together.

I honestly do think you can work this out. People often try to make the
transition much too quickly - especially when they have had success in the
past and expect that each cat will react in the same way. You probably won't
need to spend as much time as I described, but I do think you need to take
some extra time to start the integration process all over again. I
definitely would *not* try to "force" the cats to get together. This could
be a nightmare in the making. Also, do not use the spray bottle, but do try
to direct Marbles' attention elsewhere when he begins to act aggressive -
use a wand with feathers on the end or a cord with a toy tied to it or
possible a laser to get him to play instead of attacking one of your other
cats.

If you will look at some of the pictures in the first link under my
signature, you can see some photos of the door I described (and also some
pics of Holly and Duffy on different sides of the door).

Good luck, Candace! I am sure this is a situation you can handle.

MaryL
(take out the litter to reply)

Photos of Duffy and Holly: 'o'
http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly)
http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")

"MacCandace" wrote in message
...
We've now had Marbles 2 weeks. He's a darling, sweet kitty that purrs all
the
time, potties where he's supposed to, doesn't have any horrible habits
but...my
original kitties, Scottie and Abbey, are horrified of him.

snip .

Am I being unfair to S and A? Am I ruining their lives? Will this ever
work
out? Should I take him back? We would miss him and feel awful but is
that the
only solution? Does it absolutely have to work out in time or is it
possible
that we could fast forward 6 months and things would still be the same?
Should
we do as Tony wants and somehow drag S and A out from under the bed, toss
them
into the other part of the house, and prevent them from being able to get
back
under the bed and force the 3 of them to co-exist? Should we continue the
separation? Should I give Marbles' time-outs whenever he aggresses toward
them? Should I squirt him with a spray bottle when he begins to posture?
Is
it still within the bounds of normality that they are hostile or if it's
still
going on, does it mean it will never resolve? Would clomicalm help?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye
other
than human." (Loren Eisely)


Candace,

I think you need to start the process all over again by keeping the cats
separate, and this time you need to take much *more* time before you permit
Marbles to be in the same room with Scottie and Abbey. I took a full 6 weeks
introducing Holly to Duffy. In that case, I knew Holly would be the
aggressor because of a previous situation with her and my sister's cats, but
you also now have a warning that the introduction will not go quickly for
your cats. I *do not* agree with those who say you should return Marbles,
but I do think you need to plan on some extra "steps" in the introduction.

I kept Duffy in a separate room when I first adopted him. After a week, a
friend located a damaged unfinished door. He cut a large square out of the
bottom of the door and covered it with wire mesh (actually, it is the type
of grill that is often mounted on the bottom of screen doors to protect them
from damage - sturdy and smooth, with no rough edges). He temporarily
replaced the bedroom door with the new screened door so that Holly and Duffy
could get up-close without any danger to either of them. He removed the
hardware (hinges and doorknob from the permanent door and mounted them on
the temporary door, a process that was later reversed when we replaced the
permanent door. This worked well, but an inexpensive screen door could be
used for this same purpose. In fact, Megan has done this a number of times,
and she spends less than $20.00 by buying a very cheap screen door and using
the hardware from the permanent door for this purpose. This is a variation
on your attempt to use a baby gate, but it would be much more secure. I
spent a great deal of time in the room with Duffy during this time, but I
was always careful to lavish lots of praise and affection on Holly whenever
I exited the room - I didn't want her to feel neglected or displaced. I also
left a radio on (tuned to classical or "easy listening" stations) when I
left Duffy alone in the room. In addition, I would allocate some time each
evening when I would place Holly in the computer room and let Duffy roam
throughout the rest of the house. This gave Duffy an opportunity to become
familiar with the house, but it also distributed his scent so that Holly
would become used to it.

My next step was to place tuna on two ends of a long platter and slip it
under the door so the two cats could eat "together." The idea was to place a
plate with special-treat food under the door (with food on each side of the
door) so the cats would learn to associate something "good" with being in
close proximity when they ate the treats. Eventually, I began to give Duffy
the run of the house along with Holly, but only under close supervision. I
gradually increased the amount of time the two were together and soon didn't
need to supervise them. However, I did not leave them alone in the house.
About five weeks into this process, I had a week of vacation. This was the
ideal time to let them really get to know each other. Throughout the week, I
gave them more and more time together - first all day, then both day and
night. By the time we approached the sixth week, both cats had the full run
of the house at all times, and then I began to leave the house for short
periods of time (first only an hour at a time, then would go back to check
on them). By the end of that week, they were together at all times. This
very slow, gradual transition has really paid off. I adopted Duffy at the
end of February 2003, and my two furbabies are now very comfortable
together.

I honestly do think you can work this out. People often try to make the
transition much too quickly - especially when they have had success in the
past and expect that each cat will react in the same way. You probably won't
need to spend as much time as I described, but I do think you need to take
some extra time to start the integration process all over again. I
definitely would *not* try to "force" the cats to get together. This could
be a nightmare in the making. Also, do not use the spray bottle, but do try
to direct Marbles' attention elsewhere when he begins to act aggressive -
use a wand with feathers on the end or a cord with a toy tied to it or
possible a laser to get him to play instead of attacking one of your other
cats.

If you will look at some of the pictures in the first link under my
signature, you can see some photos of the door I described (and also some
pics of Holly and Duffy on different sides of the door).

Good luck, Candace! I am sure this is a situation you can handle.

MaryL
(take out the litter to reply)

Photos of Duffy and Holly: 'o'
http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly)
http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")

Well, this may (eventually) help you to relax, a little....

Demelza was *petrified* of Herrie for a l-o-n-g time; she was absolutely
_paranoid_ about him. Debbie was very wary of him & growled at him, but was
a shade below paranoid. This was despite a long & controlled intro.

Herrie was in this upstairs back bedroom/office/TV room for weeks, then in
the dining room - which is shut off from the kitchen by a solid door & from
the LR by French doors - after that for at least 2 more weeks. (Could've
been a month). IOW - they could then see & hear him when he was in the DR,
but no actual contact. Together, that must've been anywhere from 4 to 8
weeks - I honestly can't remember the exact length of time now, but it was a
minimum of 2 weeks for each place he was sequestered during the intro.

Then I bought a large crate & put him in it in the LR for an hour or so at a
time, so they could all be in the same room, & touch if they wanted (Deb &
Demelza did _not_ want to!). After each LR session, he was back in the DR,
with the doors closed.

Eventually I let Herrie out into the rest of the house - *if* I was at home,
but it was pretty much a disaster. As I said, Debbie was scared & leery of
him, but Demelza was absolutely petrified. She refused to be in the same
room as him. If she accidentally came within a few feet of him, she'd jump
up to the nearest windowsill or wherever, & pant like crazy - I was afraid
she was going to hyperventilate. And when she was in that sort of state,
she was too far over the edge to pay any attention to me, trying to sooth
her. Only time, & Herrie out of her line of vision, would eventually calm
her down.

If I wasn't at home, then I put Herrie in this original room where he spent
his first weeks, & also at night. Again, I can't now remember how long I
felt it necessary to sequester him if I wasn't at home & during the night,
but it was anywhere from several months to a year. All of this didn't
bother him in the least - he would actually 'go to bed' in the carrier in
which I originally brought him to the vet & then home to this room. He was
relaxed & happy (unlike the other two), except for the fact that he
obviously wanted to be friends w/ Debbie & Demelza, who didn't want any part
of him, unfortunately. When he was in this room, then the other two would
act their normal selves, also relaxed & happy.

However, when he was allowed access to the rest of the house - when I was
home & awake, Herrie eventually figured out that he could approach one of
them & get a major reaction (rather like a sibling figures out that they can
annoy the hell out of another sibling), so as time went on there were plenty
of attacks, w/ fur literally flying. No blood that I know of - otoh, Debbie
was LH as is Demelza - that may've helped!

Eventually Debbie grew more tolerant of Herrie - within a year or so. She
didn't actively *like* him, but it was reasonable. Demelza, otoh, was still
not happy about his presence, at *all*. The day she finally ate, within
sight of him, was a break-through. That was at _least_ a year after his
intro - maybe 2. After 2 years the animosity on her part lessened somewhat,
but there were still major fracases every day. 3 years after his intro, it
became a bit better, with the occasional fracas - maybe one or two a day.
(Him chasing her, just for the fun of it; her screeching her head off, even
if he wasn't even touching her.)

It's now been almost 5 years, & for the last couple of years she's been much
more comfortable in his presence. She gets in surreptitious sniffs now &
again, will sit next to him in the doorway to watch birds or squirrels out
on the lawn, & will eat right next to him. No cuddling w/him, no mutual
grooming, & no playing (on her part), but tolerance. The occasional
scuffle, but generally calm compared to earlier years.

I think the whole huge problem w/ Demelza is that when I adopted her, she
immediately assumed queen position over Debbie - who was 7 years older &
considerably bigger than Demelza. But Debbie was so laid back about it; she
just let Demelza take over, & they became friends fairly quickly. So, when
I adopted Herrie, I think Demelza saw him - whether or not it was actually
true, just her own perception - as a threat to her place in the cat order of
the house, & she just really couldn't handle it. She now tries to laud it
over Herrie sometimes, but he seems to be top cat now - *just barely*;
perhaps he realizes what an opponent Demelza is - how fiercely she's wanted
to retain her position.

It took years, but time eventually mellowed her out enough to live with him
on an easy enough basis. So, IME, there's hope, but in the interim, the
road may be very rocky.

Cathy


"MacCandace" wrote in message
...
We've now had Marbles 2 weeks. He's a darling, sweet kitty that purrs all
the
time, potties where he's supposed to, doesn't have any horrible habits
but...my
original kitties, Scottie and Abbey, are horrified of him.

We kept Marbles confined to two rooms for about 4 days when we first got
him.
Scottie and Abbey did not seem to mind that there was another cat in the
house.
There was no hissing at the door or paws under the door or any major
interest
shown by any of the concerned parties. So, on the 4th day, we put a baby
gate
up on his door. This has been what we have done in the past. Well, about
2
minutes later, he jumped it and was out in the rest of the house so end of
that
plan. For the next several days, we let him be out with them except when
we
were at work or asleep (which is the majority of the time except on
weekends).
A few times, they all laid close to each other in the family room and once
he
and Scottie ate some grass about a foot apart. But, mostly, there is
posturing
by both Scottie and Marbles and twice there has been a shrieking cat fight
with
minimal contact. Abbey mostly hisses at Marbles. But on Sunday,
inadvertently, Marbles somehow chased Scottie and Abbey back into the 2
rooms
and there they have remained for 4 days now. They hide under the bed and
only
come out if the door is shut and he is locked out. So, once again, while
we
are at work or asleep, they are locked in and when we are home and awake,
we
let Marbles in. He will lay under the bed with them and nothing happens,
no
growling or hissing. He will lay about a foot away from them. If they
happen
to be out from under the bed when he comes into the 2 rooms, the posturing
begins, primarily on his part, directed at Scottie. Scottie holds his
ground
for a few minutes and then bolts under the bed with Marbles chasing him.
This
is making me ill. I feel so bad for Scottie and Abbey to be prisoners in
their
own home while he has free rein. I'm sure they're miserable. Once we
shut him
out at night, they get in bed with us and act semi-normal but they seem to
be
horrified of him. He is smaller than both of them. They are all
neutered/spayed and have been that way since they were youngsters.
Scottie is
7, Marbles is 6, Abbey is 3. Marbles is from a six cat family where he
supposedly got along wonderfully with the other 5 cats (I have emailed his
former mom and this is what she tells me). Scottie has lived with 4 other
cats
during the time we've had him and Abbey has lived with 3 others. It was
not
all lovey-dovey with them all but there was no fighting, just ignoring of
the
others and an occasional hissing or swatting incident. Will this ever
resolve?

I have 2 Feliway diffusers at each end of the house so everyone is getting
a
whiff of that. One has been in place for almost a week, the other for
about 4
days. I know it can take awhile to work but I also know it doesn't always
work. I sincerely fear that Scottie and Abbey will never, ever come out
if he
is in the room with them. I am afraid to just let him have free run
because
I'm afraid they will freak out and start pottying under the bed and quit
eating
and we all know that it is very bad when cats quit eating. Therefore, I
lock
him out those times when we are not around so they can eat and relax and
potty.
Tony thinks we should not close any doors anymore and let them work it
out
but, as I said, I'm afraid Scottie and Abbey will never come out, will
become
more neurotic, and wind up miserable, unhappy cats. Scottie is a former
feral
and so is quite sensitive but since he's always gotten along with our
other
cats, I never thought this would happen or I would not have gotten another
cat.

Some of my friends and my mom (who is 2,000 miles away) think I owe my
first
loyalty to Scottie and Abbey and should return Marbles. He is from a
no-kill
rescue group who would take him back and then he would be back to life in
a
cage until someone else adopts him and he will have the stigma of not
getting
along with other cats on his adoption card. We love him now, too, and
don't
want to get rid of him. I would feel like a failure if I did that. I
can't
remember how long it has taken us to integrate other cats in the past; I
know
there were some rough times but this is seeming like it is worse and
longer. I
guess we should have gotten a kitten but I wanted to adopt an older cat
since
they are harder to place and we have integrated adult cats before.

I feel Marbles is generally the aggressor and I don't understand why. We
have
no other room to lock Marbles into in order to get Scottie and Abbey out
of
these back rooms. We could do the bathroom but Marbles is a very vocal
and
loud cat so I know he would be howling if we put him in there and Scottie
and
Abbey would be too afraid to come out of those rooms then anyway. I think
part
of the problem is Marbles' vocalness. He walks around meowing much of the
time
and I think Scottie and Abbey interpret that as aggression even though he
seems
to do it all the time even when they're not around. The only time he is
not
excessively vocal is if he is laying under the bed with them or close by
them.
I think he wants to like them but can't stop showing aggression.

Am I being unfair to S and A? Am I ruining their lives? Will this ever
work
out? Should I take him back? We would miss him and feel awful but is
that the
only solution? Does it absolutely have to work out in time or is it
possible
that we could fast forward 6 months and things would still be the same?
Should
we do as Tony wants and somehow drag S and A out from under the bed, toss
them
into the other part of the house, and prevent them from being able to get
back
under the bed and force the 3 of them to co-exist? Should we continue the
separation? Should I give Marbles' time-outs whenever he aggresses toward
them? Should I squirt him with a spray bottle when he begins to posture?
Is
it still within the bounds of normality that they are hostile or if it's
still
going on, does it mean it will never resolve? Would clomicalm help?

I've read all the cat intro articles but no one gives a time frame or says
what
to do if it doesn't seem to be working. Right now, Marbles is sound
asleep on
top of the bed while S and A are underneath. Last night, Marbles and
Scottie
briefly laid on top of the bed together without incident. It seems that
if
Scottie is standing up or sitting up that Marbles then aggresses but if S
is
laying down, M is not aggressive. But poor Scottie, I would like for him
to be
able to stand and walk again in his own home. I think Abbey, who is very
close
to S, is following his lead. On her own, I don't think she would be quite
as
fearful. Can this family be saved?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye
other
than human." (Loren Eisely)

Well, this may (eventually) help you to relax, a little....

Demelza was *petrified* of Herrie for a l-o-n-g time; she was absolutely
_paranoid_ about him. Debbie was very wary of him & growled at him, but was
a shade below paranoid. This was despite a long & controlled intro.

Herrie was in this upstairs back bedroom/office/TV room for weeks, then in
the dining room - which is shut off from the kitchen by a solid door & from
the LR by French doors - after that for at least 2 more weeks. (Could've
been a month). IOW - they could then see & hear him when he was in the DR,
but no actual contact. Together, that must've been anywhere from 4 to 8
weeks - I honestly can't remember the exact length of time now, but it was a
minimum of 2 weeks for each place he was sequestered during the intro.

Then I bought a large crate & put him in it in the LR for an hour or so at a
time, so they could all be in the same room, & touch if they wanted (Deb &
Demelza did _not_ want to!). After each LR session, he was back in the DR,
with the doors closed.

Eventually I let Herrie out into the rest of the house - *if* I was at home,
but it was pretty much a disaster. As I said, Debbie was scared & leery of
him, but Demelza was absolutely petrified. She refused to be in the same
room as him. If she accidentally came within a few feet of him, she'd jump
up to the nearest windowsill or wherever, & pant like crazy - I was afraid
she was going to hyperventilate. And when she was in that sort of state,
she was too far over the edge to pay any attention to me, trying to sooth
her. Only time, & Herrie out of her line of vision, would eventually calm
her down.

If I wasn't at home, then I put Herrie in this original room where he spent
his first weeks, & also at night. Again, I can't now remember how long I
felt it necessary to sequester him if I wasn't at home & during the night,
but it was anywhere from several months to a year. All of this didn't
bother him in the least - he would actually 'go to bed' in the carrier in
which I originally brought him to the vet & then home to this room. He was
relaxed & happy (unlike the other two), except for the fact that he
obviously wanted to be friends w/ Debbie & Demelza, who didn't want any part
of him, unfortunately. When he was in this room, then the other two would
act their normal selves, also relaxed & happy.

However, when he was allowed access to the rest of the house - when I was
home & awake, Herrie eventually figured out that he could approach one of
them & get a major reaction (rather like a sibling figures out that they can
annoy the hell out of another sibling), so as time went on there were plenty
of attacks, w/ fur literally flying. No blood that I know of - otoh, Debbie
was LH as is Demelza - that may've helped!

Eventually Debbie grew more tolerant of Herrie - within a year or so. She
didn't actively *like* him, but it was reasonable. Demelza, otoh, was still
not happy about his presence, at *all*. The day she finally ate, within
sight of him, was a break-through. That was at _least_ a year after his
intro - maybe 2. After 2 years the animosity on her part lessened somewhat,
but there were still major fracases every day. 3 years after his intro, it
became a bit better, with the occasional fracas - maybe one or two a day.
(Him chasing her, just for the fun of it; her screeching her head off, even
if he wasn't even touching her.)

It's now been almost 5 years, & for the last couple of years she's been much
more comfortable in his presence. She gets in surreptitious sniffs now &
again, will sit next to him in the doorway to watch birds or squirrels out
on the lawn, & will eat right next to him. No cuddling w/him, no mutual
grooming, & no playing (on her part), but tolerance. The occasional
scuffle, but generally calm compared to earlier years.

I think the whole huge problem w/ Demelza is that when I adopted her, she
immediately assumed queen position over Debbie - who was 7 years older &
considerably bigger than Demelza. But Debbie was so laid back about it; she
just let Demelza take over, & they became friends fairly quickly. So, when
I adopted Herrie, I think Demelza saw him - whether or not it was actually
true, just her own perception - as a threat to her place in the cat order of
the house, & she just really couldn't handle it. She now tries to laud it
over Herrie sometimes, but he seems to be top cat now - *just barely*;
perhaps he realizes what an opponent Demelza is - how fiercely she's wanted
to retain her position.

It took years, but time eventually mellowed her out enough to live with him
on an easy enough basis. So, IME, there's hope, but in the interim, the
road may be very rocky.

Cathy


"MacCandace" wrote in message
...
We've now had Marbles 2 weeks. He's a darling, sweet kitty that purrs all
the
time, potties where he's supposed to, doesn't have any horrible habits
but...my
original kitties, Scottie and Abbey, are horrified of him.

We kept Marbles confined to two rooms for about 4 days when we first got
him.
Scottie and Abbey did not seem to mind that there was another cat in the
house.
There was no hissing at the door or paws under the door or any major
interest
shown by any of the concerned parties. So, on the 4th day, we put a baby
gate
up on his door. This has been what we have done in the past. Well, about
2
minutes later, he jumped it and was out in the rest of the house so end of
that
plan. For the next several days, we let him be out with them except when
we
were at work or asleep (which is the majority of the time except on
weekends).
A few times, they all laid close to each other in the family room and once
he
and Scottie ate some grass about a foot apart. But, mostly, there is
posturing
by both Scottie and Marbles and twice there has been a shrieking cat fight
with
minimal contact. Abbey mostly hisses at Marbles. But on Sunday,
inadvertently, Marbles somehow chased Scottie and Abbey back into the 2
rooms
and there they have remained for 4 days now. They hide under the bed and
only
come out if the door is shut and he is locked out. So, once again, while
we
are at work or asleep, they are locked in and when we are home and awake,
we
let Marbles in. He will lay under the bed with them and nothing happens,
no
growling or hissing. He will lay about a foot away from them. If they
happen
to be out from under the bed when he comes into the 2 rooms, the posturing
begins, primarily on his part, directed at Scottie. Scottie holds his
ground
for a few minutes and then bolts under the bed with Marbles chasing him.
This
is making me ill. I feel so bad for Scottie and Abbey to be prisoners in
their
own home while he has free rein. I'm sure they're miserable. Once we
shut him
out at night, they get in bed with us and act semi-normal but they seem to
be
horrified of him. He is smaller than both of them. They are all
neutered/spayed and have been that way since they were youngsters.
Scottie is
7, Marbles is 6, Abbey is 3. Marbles is from a six cat family where he
supposedly got along wonderfully with the other 5 cats (I have emailed his
former mom and this is what she tells me). Scottie has lived with 4 other
cats
during the time we've had him and Abbey has lived with 3 others. It was
not
all lovey-dovey with them all but there was no fighting, just ignoring of
the
others and an occasional hissing or swatting incident. Will this ever
resolve?

I have 2 Feliway diffusers at each end of the house so everyone is getting
a
whiff of that. One has been in place for almost a week, the other for
about 4
days. I know it can take awhile to work but I also know it doesn't always
work. I sincerely fear that Scottie and Abbey will never, ever come out
if he
is in the room with them. I am afraid to just let him have free run
because
I'm afraid they will freak out and start pottying under the bed and quit
eating
and we all know that it is very bad when cats quit eating. Therefore, I
lock
him out those times when we are not around so they can eat and relax and
potty.
Tony thinks we should not close any doors anymore and let them work it
out
but, as I said, I'm afraid Scottie and Abbey will never come out, will
become
more neurotic, and wind up miserable, unhappy cats. Scottie is a former
feral
and so is quite sensitive but since he's always gotten along with our
other
cats, I never thought this would happen or I would not have gotten another
cat.

Some of my friends and my mom (who is 2,000 miles away) think I owe my
first
loyalty to Scottie and Abbey and should return Marbles. He is from a
no-kill
rescue group who would take him back and then he would be back to life in
a
cage until someone else adopts him and he will have the stigma of not
getting
along with other cats on his adoption card. We love him now, too, and
don't
want to get rid of him. I would feel like a failure if I did that. I
can't
remember how long it has taken us to integrate other cats in the past; I
know
there were some rough times but this is seeming like it is worse and
longer. I
guess we should have gotten a kitten but I wanted to adopt an older cat
since
they are harder to place and we have integrated adult cats before.

I feel Marbles is generally the aggressor and I don't understand why. We
have
no other room to lock Marbles into in order to get Scottie and Abbey out
of
these back rooms. We could do the bathroom but Marbles is a very vocal
and
loud cat so I know he would be howling if we put him in there and Scottie
and
Abbey would be too afraid to come out of those rooms then anyway. I think
part
of the problem is Marbles' vocalness. He walks around meowing much of the
time
and I think Scottie and Abbey interpret that as aggression even though he
seems
to do it all the time even when they're not around. The only time he is
not
excessively vocal is if he is laying under the bed with them or close by
them.
I think he wants to like them but can't stop showing aggression.

Am I being unfair to S and A? Am I ruining their lives? Will this ever
work
out? Should I take him back? We would miss him and feel awful but is
that the
only solution? Does it absolutely have to work out in time or is it
possible
that we could fast forward 6 months and things would still be the same?
Should
we do as Tony wants and somehow drag S and A out from under the bed, toss
them
into the other part of the house, and prevent them from being able to get
back
under the bed and force the 3 of them to co-exist? Should we continue the
separation? Should I give Marbles' time-outs whenever he aggresses toward
them? Should I squirt him with a spray bottle when he begins to posture?
Is
it still within the bounds of normality that they are hostile or if it's
still
going on, does it mean it will never resolve? Would clomicalm help?

I've read all the cat intro articles but no one gives a time frame or says
what
to do if it doesn't seem to be working. Right now, Marbles is sound
asleep on
top of the bed while S and A are underneath. Last night, Marbles and
Scottie
briefly laid on top of the bed together without incident. It seems that
if
Scottie is standing up or sitting up that Marbles then aggresses but if S
is
laying down, M is not aggressive. But poor Scottie, I would like for him
to be
able to stand and walk again in his own home. I think Abbey, who is very
close
to S, is following his lead. On her own, I don't think she would be quite
as
fearful. Can this family be saved?

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye
other
than human." (Loren Eisely)

I really think you should try the screen door approach that Mary suggests.
If they can see him, but not be threatened he can reach them, I would think
they would become accustomed to him in a more positive non-threatening way.
I did it with 3 baby gates separating Pearl from Sugar and Grant. The door
would have worked much better and been handier. I didn't have them out
together for at least 4 weeks. Then I would begin to have them out together,
but when I was gone, alternated who was out in the rest of the place and who
was in the bedroom (by now, Pearl could scale the baby gates, so that's why
a screen door would have been handier). It may take awhile, but I say give
it a try.

I really think you should try the screen door approach that Mary suggests.
If they can see him, but not be threatened he can reach them, I would think
they would become accustomed to him in a more positive non-threatening way.
I did it with 3 baby gates separating Pearl from Sugar and Grant. The door
would have worked much better and been handier. I didn't have them out
together for at least 4 weeks. Then I would begin to have them out together,
but when I was gone, alternated who was out in the rest of the place and who
was in the bedroom (by now, Pearl could scale the baby gates, so that's why
a screen door would have been handier). It may take awhile, but I say give
it a try.

It's not so bad, really. Although I felt just like you did when it was
happening and we talked about returning the new cat as well. Don't!
You've desribed a lot of good progress in two weeks. They are working
things out. The fights are about enforcing and defining the rules of
living together. They are mid-process. In our case with two year and a
half old females, it took five weeks. And at a month, much less two
weeks, I was wringing my hands, feeling like it was a disaster and
trying to convince myself that I didn't need to return the new cat and
resign myself that the older cat was an only cat by choice. One week
later, it was OK and almost a year later, they are literally best
friends.

It's not so bad, really. Although I felt just like you did when it was
happening and we talked about returning the new cat as well. Don't!
You've desribed a lot of good progress in two weeks. They are working
things out. The fights are about enforcing and defining the rules of
living together. They are mid-process. In our case with two year and a
half old females, it took five weeks. And at a month, much less two
weeks, I was wringing my hands, feeling like it was a disaster and
trying to convince myself that I didn't need to return the new cat and
resign myself that the older cat was an only cat by choice. One week
later, it was OK and almost a year later, they are literally best
friends.

In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav",
itter (MacCandace) artfully composed this message
within on 16 Jul
2004:

Can this family be saved?

I've been waiting to hear how it is going with Marbles and your crew.
I wonder apart from the suggestions to take the introductions slow,
(I really like the screen door idea if it is do-able!) if it might
help to let Marbles and Abbey have some time together while you're
giving Scottie love in another room, after a little bit of time with
Marbles separated again, of course. If Abbey doesn't seem upset and
is reading Scottie's body language when Scottie sees him, maybe Abbey
can help calm Scottie when he sees she isn't upsetted by him?

--
Cheryl