Holiday Cards (Felinitations)

In om,
Adrian typed:
Christina Websell wrote:
ictor Martinez wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:
Not "holiday cards" what's that supposed to mean?

It means that not everybody in the group is a christian or
celebrates x-mas.

Yes, I realised that already.
But the fact remains that if you send out cards in December they are
Christmas cards, whether or not you celebrate Christmas, that's what
they are.

Tweed

Absolute nonsense, if you don't believe in the existance of Christ
how can they be Christmas cards?

I've received Hanukkah cards and Yule cards from RPCA's December Card
Exchange in previous years. These are not, to my mind, *Christmas* cards.
And I really like receiving non-Christmas December Celebration cards.
Kwanzaa doesnt' happen here, and I don't know if part of Kwanzaa involves
sending greeting cards, but if it does, can someone send me a Kwanzaa card?

Yowie

In ,
Christina Websell typed:
Yowie wrote:
I know, I know, its *miles* away from the holidays and most of you
are still happily enjoying your summer and not thinking remotely
about snow and ice.
Still, as any of you have previously organised The List, it needs
alot of organising, and so I may as well get started. Those of you
subscribed to Felinitations have just been sent a "PING". Please
reply to it so I know your e-mail is valid. No need to write anything
in particular, just reply and send will do- the replies don't get
broadcast to the whole group, they only go to me (I'm the only one
who can post.... bwahahahaha).
Those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about:

Every year for the past at least 7 years, we've exchanged Holiday
Greeting Cards with each other during the December holidays. This
year, like last year, I'm managing the List via Yahoo Groups, with a
group name of Felinitations. The only difference between using Yahoo
Groups and the old way is that I no longer have to keep a list of
e-mail addies, and you folk can update your e-mail addies without
having to notify me.
If you would like to join, please send me an e-mail (mind the
spamtrap) and I will send you the link to the group that you can then
subscribe to.
Feel free to ask any questions - this year should be far less
confusing than last yer (she says confidently.....)


I did not like this new way at all last year and don't like it now.
I will continue with the "old" list for Christmas cards.
Not "holiday cards" what's that supposed to mean?

Sorry to only now get to this - my PC is broken and I can therefore only
access Usenet via Google groups or via work. And work has been very busy.

Can I ask what it was in particular that you didn't like about the 'new
way'? I did my best to make it work like every other year, except that
instead of having to keep track of all the e-mail addresses of those
participating, I let Yahoo do it for me. From a user's point of view, it
shouldn't have been any different except that the list came from
"Felinitations" rather than the e-mail addy of an individual.

Yowie

In m,
tanadashoes typed:
"Adrian" wrote in message
om...
Marina wrote:
Victor Martinez wrote:
Christina Websell wrote:
It really annoys me.

You're missing the point. You can send x-mas cards if you want.
Someone else can send winter solstice cards if they want. Another
one can send holiday cards if they want.
We use the expression "holiday cards" to be inclusive of those of
us who do not send x-mas cards for whatever reason we may have.


And I celebrate Yule (jul in Swedish and joulu in Finnish). Yule has
been celebrated here in the north since the dawn of time (heh, it's
a solstice feast), eons before Christianity reached us.

A feast that was hijacked by the Christians, along with others,
centuries ago. I really don't mind what people celebrate, or why,
but I hate to be *told* what I should be celebrating.
--
Adrian (Owned by Snoopy, Bagheera & Shadow)


Thank you. Like Marina, I celebrate Yule. It is a way of going back
to my German/Scandinavian roots.

I celebrate Litha (Or Midsummer) in December. Yule is in June. The
celebration that has come to be known as "Christimas" happens on the 25th of
December, but AFAICS, the traditional celebrations that we now associated
with Christmas are all about the winter solstice (living in the Southern
Hemisphere makes this all the more obvious) and nothing much to to do with
the birth of anyone. The Bible itself makes this clear, when it says that
Jesus was born when the sheep were in the fields, lambing, which means he
was born in around September or so. Those who wish to have the Christ put
back into Christmas should first explain how he got there in the first
place, IMO :-)

It strikes me that Easter ought to be the major religious holiday of the
Christians although that was pinched from the Pagans too and is about
fertility and the spring "rebirth" after winter... although the
appropriation of this Pagan holiday makes more sense to me about "coming
back from the dead" and "abundant life" - far more thean the winter solstice
celebration seems to relate to birth. Personally, I would think the
existance of Christ would be celebrated equally *every* day if one was a
Christian, and that that his death and resurrection be what they would focus
on for the big party day of the year. I would also think that indulging in
the Pagan-related symbols, ceremonies and rituals and of course the gross
overcommercialisation (and thereby the love of mammon) would be a complete
anathema to a practicing Christian. But what do I know, I am not.

Personally, December 25th isn't a religious day at all. Its all about
aprpeciating family, friends and the gifts (as opposed to presents) we've
been given. In that regard, it probably has more in common with Thankgiving
than any religious ritual, Pagan or Christian, except of course we still
have the hang-over of exchanging gifts and decorating as if we were in the
middle of a deep snowy winter. Laughable when the temperature is hovering
near 100F and it doesn't get dark until 8:30pm (in Sydney, even later in
Melbourne). More recently, restaurants, big hotels and some resorts have
taken up "Christmas in July" - it makes far more sense to have the big heavy
roast dinner, sparkling evergreen tree, roaring fire and a guy dressed in
thick red velvet and snowy-white winter furs when its bitterly cold (even if
its probably not snowing) than at the height of summer.

Yowie
(donning asbestos undies)

Yowie wrote:

The Bible itself makes this clear, when it says that
Jesus was born when the sheep were in the fields, lambing, which means he
was born in around September or so. Those who wish to have the Christ put
back into Christmas should first explain how he got there in the first
place, IMO :-)

I've always heard that he was born in July or thereabouts. So if
Christmas was celebrated on his actual birthday in the southern
hemisphere, you could all happily adopt the Pagan Solstice stuff
about winter and darkness, and the European traditions of snow,
sleigh rides, etc.

It strikes me that Easter ought to be the major religious holiday
of the Christians

I think it actually is, to people who celebrate both holidays in a
religious way. It is a much more holy day than Christmas. What makes
Christmas so much of a bigger deal is... well you know what I'm going
to say.

although that was pinched from the Pagans too and is about
fertility and the spring "rebirth" after winter...

The name Easter comes from the name of a fertility goddess, Oestre (sp?).
I'm willing to bet that the word "estrogen" comes from the same name.
That would certainly be fitting. And Easter eggs? The Easter *bunny*?
How much more blatant can you get?

Joyce

--
I'm in favor of animal liberation. Why? Because I'm an animal.
-- Edward Abbey

In ,
typed:
Marina wrote:

And I celebrate Yule (jul in Swedish and joulu in Finnish). Yule has
been celebrated here in the north since the dawn of time (heh, it's a
solstice feast), eons before Christianity reached us.

I'll bet it has! Probably a collective festival of *relief*.

It's very true that cultures all over the world have some sort of
festival involving lights during their winter.

Being picky (my apologies) those nearer the equator have winters that aren't
so dramatic, and therefore are less likely to have festivals involving light
at winter. I don't recall (although could be wrong) that the any of the
myriad of Australian Aboriginal cultures have any ceremonies regarding light
in our winter - mainly ebcause although yes, our days get shorter, and yes,
it gets colder, the vast majority of us don't have days are *very* short and
all our native plants are evergreen so animals (us included) don't go
without food in winter.

I'd be interested to know how winter is observed in the cultures that live
in equivalent lattitudes to England & central Europe but in the southern
hemisphere. Most of Australia is too close to the equator for us to really
need a great celebration in winter, IMHO.

Yowie

In ,
typed:
Yowie wrote:

The Bible itself makes this clear, when it says that
Jesus was born when the sheep were in the fields, lambing, which
means he was born in around September or so. Those who wish to have
the Christ put back into Christmas should first explain how he got
there in the first place, IMO :-)

I've always heard that he was born in July or thereabouts. So if
Christmas was celebrated on his actual birthday in the southern
hemisphere, you could all happily adopt the Pagan Solstice stuff
about winter and darkness, and the European traditions of snow,
sleigh rides, etc.

If only we had snow :-)

It would feel a bit less weird perhaps?.. oh, I dunno. Aussies that have
been here forever don't seem to be bothered by it, but those of us who are
first or second generation immigrants from the colder parts of Europe still
find a strange disconnect with what our weather is doing and what sort of
imagery we use when we celebrate Christmas.


It strikes me that Easter ought to be the major religious holiday
of the Christians

I think it actually is, to people who celebrate both holidays in a
religious way. It is a much more holy day than Christmas. What makes
Christmas so much of a bigger deal is... well you know what I'm going
to say.

That its Christmas? LOL.


although that was pinched from the Pagans too and is about
fertility and the spring "rebirth" after winter...

The name Easter comes from the name of a fertility goddess, Oestre
(sp?). I'm willing to bet that the word "estrogen" comes from the
same name. That would certainly be fitting. And Easter eggs? The
Easter *bunny*? How much more blatant can you get?

Yup, Estrogen comes from the same root.

Dancing around the Maypole is another fertility right from Eostre, although
its been disconnected from Christian Easter.

Yowie

I'd be interested to know how winter is observed in the cultures
that live in equivalent latitudes to England & central Europe but
in the southern hemisphere.

They're mostly penguins. Christmas in Kerguelen is celebrated by
eating fish, but then what isn't?

==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === http://www.campin.me.uk ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
****** I killfile Google posts - email me if you want to be whitelisted ******

wrote:
Yowie wrote:

The Bible itself makes this clear, when it says that
Jesus was born when the sheep were in the fields, lambing, which means he
was born in around September or so. Those who wish to have the Christ put
back into Christmas should first explain how he got there in the first
place, IMO :-)

I've always heard that he was born in July or thereabouts. So if
Christmas was celebrated on his actual birthday in the southern
hemisphere, you could all happily adopt the Pagan Solstice stuff
about winter and darkness, and the European traditions of snow,
sleigh rides, etc.

Wrong way around - the ancient northern Europeans didn't adopt the pagan
traditions, they had them all along, and kept some of them after
conversion. There's always been a controversy among missionaries over
what old ways have to be abandoned on conversion, and what may be kept
or adapted.

I don't think that the exact date of Jesus' birth was of major
importance except to the kind of theologian who likes working out dates
and chronologies. For the first couple hundred years, it wasn't on the
lists of feasts, and doesn't seem to have been celebrated. When it was
adopted, celebrating it in mid-winter made all kinds of sense if people
were used to having a party then anyway.

It strikes me that Easter ought to be the major religious holiday
of the Christians

I think it actually is, to people who celebrate both holidays in a
religious way. It is a much more holy day than Christmas. What makes
Christmas so much of a bigger deal is... well you know what I'm going
to say.

Easter is a far more important religious holiday that Christmas.
Christmas *has* been celebrated, including with parties, from way back,
but a lot of the modern Christmas goes back to Victorian times - and
some, like the Christmas sales in November and even October, are even
more recent~


although that was pinched from the Pagans too and is about
fertility and the spring "rebirth" after winter...

The name Easter comes from the name of a fertility goddess, Oestre (sp?).
I'm willing to bet that the word "estrogen" comes from the same name.
That would certainly be fitting. And Easter eggs? The Easter *bunny*?
How much more blatant can you get?

Well, like I said, some Christian missionaries had no problems with
converts practising and handing on some of their old traditions along
with the new Christianity. But it's always struck me a bit odd that
English uses the name of the old goddess, and most if not all the other
European languages use something derived from the same roots as
'paschal'. Maybe the old Anglo-Saxons just liked that name better, the
same way their continental cousins kept the Christmas tree tradition,
which was dropped in the UK until Victorian times.

Cheryl

wrote:

But the Christmas gift-buying rush operates on more than just the
human impluse to copy other humans. It operates on *guilt*, and frames
gift-giving as an important way to show people how much you care about
them. Families can absolutely contribute to enforcing that pressure,
because if they buy into the idea that gifts mean love, and expensive
gifts mean more love, then if you don't buy gifts, or you buy inexpensive
ones, then you must not care about them very much. That leads to *genuine*
hurt feelings, and you can't manufacture that. For the companies that
sell all the goodies, it doesn't get much better than that, in terms of
keeping the pressure-to-buy machine going strong.

snip details

Oh, yes, I know what you mean. I have some relatives like that, although
not in my immediate family, and was at one time quite familiar with the
"My X is so kind, loving, thoughtful and considerate! Look at the gift
he gave me! It must have cost $$$$$$!! What did your X give you?" (Where
'X' can be spouse, child, parent etc). My immediate family was always
far more restrained, and I've become even more so. We exchange gifts,
but usually small things, or a collection of small things, especially
now that we are getting older and most of us have all the things we need.

Gift-giving is a fascinating social phenomena. There is, of course, the
idea held by many people including your father that the bigger the gift,
the stronger the giver's feelings of love. And the tendency of the giver
to put part of themselves into a gift, so that if it is rejected or not
obviously enjoyed, the giver feels personally rejected. BTDT - although
looking back, I shouldn't have because the recipient was a child, much
younger than I, and in a snit about something else.

And when do you give gifts, and to whom? For Christmas, I tend to give
gifts (not counting charity) to immediate family and a few very close
friends. Some people give more widely - and of course, then there's the
expectation of a return gift, which you might not be prepared to
reciprocate right on the spot. In workplaces, I find a lot of hurt
feelings if the gift situation is clear up front - is there gift-giving
among the whole group (a situation I dislike), between co-workers who
are also close personal friends or not at all? What about gifts from
outside businesses - allowed, forbidden?

One place I worked, we all agreed to do away with the secret santa and
instead to have a voluntary collection for a local charity. I liked
that. Giving money to a charity was appropriate and far easier than
braving the stores to find something withing the price limit for someone
I barely knew since I'd hardly spoken with them at work and never saw
them outside work.

--
Cheryl

Yowie wrote:

typed:

It would feel a bit less weird perhaps?.. oh, I dunno. Aussies that have
been here forever don't seem to be bothered by it, but those of us who are
first or second generation immigrants from the colder parts of Europe still
find a strange disconnect with what our weather is doing and what sort of
imagery we use when we celebrate Christmas.

That's kind of how I feel about the San Francisco area versus Boston.
Boston gets quite cold in the winter (is usually at or below freezing
temperatures) and gets lots of snow. Here in San Francisco the temperature
range is much smaller and it hardly ever reaches freezing temps in the
winter. What we get in winter is rain. In fact, winter is our greenest
time of year because of the rain - in the summer everything's more like
gold or brown.

When I first moved here, it looked so incongruous to see images of
raindeer pulling a sleigh or snow-laden fir trees, sitting next to some
flowers growing.

I think [Easter] actually is, to people who celebrate both holidays
in a religious way. It is a much more holy day than Christmas. What
makes Christmas so much of a bigger deal is... well you know what I'm
going to say.

That its Christmas? LOL.

That it's the most important time of year for many economies.

Dancing around the Maypole is another fertility right from Eostre, although
its been disconnected from Christian Easter.

Seems like that one should come from a god, not a goddess.

Joyce

--
The Internet is on computers now! -- Homer Simpson