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#41
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Gaubster wrote: From: Apparently it didn't occur to you that managing crystals and dissolving them are two different things. Of course it did. But you're too busy putting words into people's mouths to stop and think, now aren't you? I did no such thing and I challenge you to prove it. Well, you keep doing it--read on........ Let's see what the OP found out: ------------ Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) You conveniently failed to mention that what the OP wrote about what was done for his cat and why was posted two days after my post. I never made any parallels about time frames (and neither did you for that matter in your original post). I SAID: Let's see what the OP found out: Notice the part where I stated, "FOUND OUT". Again, you are trying to twist things around because your arrogance doesn't allow you to admit when you are wrong. No, not at all. You implied, it's obvious and trying to backpedal doesn't change reality. Looks like they resolved that problem with the help of the Hill's diets. Once again, Megan your advice turns out to be off the mark. As is typical you use deception to try to win your point (which you didn't.) What part of my above statement is "deceptive"?? It certainly does sound as if the problem has been resolved with "the help" of Hill's diets. Again, you should look in the mirror before you start letting the venom flow through your fingertips. You implied I should have already known what was done for the cat by following it with the statement that my advice was off the mark. You also implied that because the Hill's diet worked, my advice was wrong. It was not. You know exactly what you did, it was deceptive, and this is typical of you. I've done plenty of research on how to treat constipation, which is what this cat had, and have found an approach that works remarkably well without having to resort to the poor quality prescription foods that so many vets are brainwashed into recommending. Right here is where you trip yourself up. Not at all. I have made similar statements in the past and am consistent. The diets his cat were prescribed were Hill's diets and worked. You don't like Hill's and attempt to convince other people to listen to you. No, you're wrong. I care about the health of cats and think it's better to treat issues with a proper species appropriate diet rather than depend on low quality prescription foods. It doesn't matter who makes it. This particular case is just one example that you are way off the mark (again). No, you're wrong, because I've seen cats completely cured from having constipation simply by changing their food to a high quality canned diet. There are also hundreds of others on the IBD list alone that have resolved constipation, diarrhea and IBD issues not by feeding prescription diets, but by feeding foods that are as close to what a cat would eat naturally as they can reasonably get. There are certainly countless others that have been successful using a proper diet instead of prescription foods as well. This is not rocket science and this approach is not by any means off the mark. It's an approach that is, in the article I posted, recommended by a veterinary internal medicine specialist and published by the AVMA, but I'm sure that since she doesn't work for or recommend Hill's you'll claim she's wrong too. Theraputic diets (especially Hill's) have been successfully treating millions of pets for almost 60 years. And I have successfully treated many health issues without having to use prescription diets, even though they were recommended. So have countless others. Why you have a problem with that is beyond me. Because their food is low quality crap, full of grains and often undefined meat sources, with a high price tag. The fact that you have a problem with successfully treating constipation issues by feeding a high quality canned food rather than a prescription diet is just more proof that you are a shill for Hills. Again, I did no such thing. Prove it or STFU. I gave you one example. No, you didn't. You didn't post one quote that proved I "put words in your mouth." In fact, in the glaringly erroneous example you used I clearly stated that you "failed to mention." That means that you *didn't* say something and can in no way, shape or form be called "putting words in your mouth." Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray |
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#45
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wrote in message ...
(...) Did you go to the Gaubster school of reading comprehension? You're focusing on corn gluten meal No, I'm trying to establish whether you accept that CGM is an 'acceptable' ingedient, despite it being of vegetable origin. You seem reluctant to see CGM as acceptable, although getting you to make a definite statement in this respect is a bit like trying to polish a cloud. (...) snip studies Steve hasn't read Caveat with the above 3 - I've only read the abstract in each case. And unless you read them and know the entire content you have no business using them. You should know better. The purpose of an abstract is to distill the salient points of the full paper. If you think that the abstracts of the papers I cited are not representative of the paper's content, the feel free to point out where in the paper this disagreement occurs. You'll also be ecstatic to know that I've now read Riond et al. and it does support that carbs (as polenta) are digestible - although marginally more energy was lost in faeces on the high carb (added polenta) diet versus the other diets tested, perhaps suggesting that the high carb diet was slightly less digestible than the high fat or high protein diets. (...) From a 2003 AVMA article available at http://www.catnutrition.org/Catkins.htm: (...) inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate content. (...) in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat. I.e., cats can digest and 'utilize' carbs! (...) So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food, high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a "CatKins" diet, Catkins my hairy arse - a ridiculous attempt to jump onto a human diet bandwagon. She's simply suggesting that cats should be fed a diet closer to their natural diet. I don't have an issue with that per se, but if people start slapping nonsense nomenclature on there, then they deserve a good shoeing. (...) way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said. In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby causing dental problems. What about the various dental diets then, eh? Anecdotally: The cats I've observed don't 'grind' dry food anyway, more like shear it into small lumps, or even swallow it whole. (...) Cats do consume a small amount of vegetable/grain matter that is found in the stomach of their prey. Canned cat foods are mostly meat with a small amount of vegetable/grain matter as well. I don't know if you're just trying to be annoying wit An annoying wit, maybe, maybe... (...) Often they will choose ingredients based on the benefits they offer rather than because they are eaten by a mouse. And BTW, I have a rat (which cats will also consume) and he eats peas, rice, sweet potatoes, raspberries and probably would eat kelp or cranberries if I gave it to him. Rats are omnivores and scavengers (much like humans) and I don't see their relevance in a cat discussion. Tangentially, my rats eat pretty much anything -though they ain't so keen on sweet potatoes - and I wouldn't fancy the cats' chances of consuming the rats in a knockdown fight. This is all a propos nothing though, and I know how much you hate that. (...) Big statements - but alas, no big evidence to back 'em up. Not yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a probability. Again, much of this is a common sense issue. There have already been studies that have shown dry food can cause or exacerbate urinary tract infections, and I posted an article above that talks about how a high carbohydrate diet can cause diabetes. Yes, I also have read studies that suggest carbs can contribute to urinary problems. However you were not making these specific points earlier in the thread. You said: 'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just passes through' (...) Yet you have spent much of your post trying to justify the digestibility of foods that are not fit for a carnivore. You question pet food companies' use of things like sweet potatoes yet sing the praises of the digestibility of polenta and corn gluten meal and don't spend one minute questioning their use. If we remove your additions of emotive terms, you are nearly at the truth: I do not 'justify' the digestibility of certain grain products, I provide cites that show they *are*, to a large extent, digestible. I do not 'question' the use of things like sweet potatoes, I point out that all of the premium foods include vegetable products. And I'm not 'singing the praises' of anything, which is probably just as well for all listeners. (...) but if you try to justify this by assigning all manner of ills to carbs - well, there just ain't the evidence AFAICT. Do you have any cites? I did not say "carbs" anywhere in the post you responded to and I challenge you to show me where I used that term in my post. I said grains, which is broader and went to my point of residue. As above, you said: 'A dry, high fiber diet will contribute to stool size and is full of grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just passes through' Are you saying that you did't mean that the cat cannot use ('utilize') grains? You did not say carbs specifically, but if you did not mean carbs, then I'm not clear what you did mean. You keep on focusing on digesting and I have responded to that aspect, but I also specifically said previously that they don't "utilize" them well, No, you did not say they cannot utilize them well, you said 'grains which a cat cannot utilize and can be considered "residue" that just passes through'. This seems quite clear, although perhaps you worded your statement carelessly and did not actually mean what you wrote. which is verifed in the excerpt of the AVMA article above. You do understand that digestion is the process of conversion, while utilization is the process of using that which has been converted, do you not? If a foodstuff can be digested, then its energy is available for use (i.e., as fat or stored glycogen). (...) For better or worse, many animals raised for human consumption are indeed forced to eat a species inappropriate diet. And this is a justification? An answer? This was a stupid response on your part and I expect better of you. If you emoted less and thought more, 'twould be better. I gave no justification, just a simple statement of fact. Take it as you will. S. |
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(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve G) Well, Steve, I have to agree with the points you made debating Megan. She clearly is more interested in ingredients vs. nutrients and is a carbophobic: Given that it is written in stone that if we agree we will both evaporate in a puff of logic, I will briefly add that I do not actually favour the use of lots of carbs in cat diets. This is not for reasons of digestibility or 'utilization' though, more that there is evidence that carbs are somewhat non-optimal in other ways. Another debate though, for another time. Or never. P'raps never would be better. S. |
#47
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(GAUBSTER2) wrote in message ...
From: (Steve G) Well, Steve, I have to agree with the points you made debating Megan. She clearly is more interested in ingredients vs. nutrients and is a carbophobic: Given that it is written in stone that if we agree we will both evaporate in a puff of logic, I will briefly add that I do not actually favour the use of lots of carbs in cat diets. This is not for reasons of digestibility or 'utilization' though, more that there is evidence that carbs are somewhat non-optimal in other ways. Another debate though, for another time. Or never. P'raps never would be better. S. |
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#49
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Hills Prescription Diet | Michael B Allen | Cat health & behaviour | 18 | March 2nd 04 05:13 PM |