Cat has CRF

Hi,

I wouldn't even be posting about this, except Google Groups search is
broken.

My 16 year old cat was recently diagnosed with CRF (about 2-3 weeks
ago). She isn't dehydrated, but her phosphorus levels are through the
roof (19.7 at her last test). The vet didn't even mention anything
about phosphorus binders, but I was able to locate a website in 2
minutes. She's very skinny and fatigued. Anyway, I'd like to start
her on AlternaGel until we can get the powdered kind that mixes with
food, but since she isn't eating much, what can I do? Should I mix up
a syringe with diluted food and the gel? I read that the binders only
work when given with food. I'm kind of rattled about all this,
especially since I finally looked at a copy of my cat's numbers and
the vet doesn't seem to know what she's doing (we're going to look for
another one ASAP if we cannot discuss the phosphorus binders with
her).

For reference, my cat's numbers a

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 82
AMY 2381 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 171 *
CA 10.8
PHOS 19.7
CRE 7.9 *
GLU 134
NA+ 143
K+ 3.8
TP 8.8 *
GLOB 4.3

The BUN, PHOS, and CRE numbers are particularly alarming to me. The
vet actually mentioned that the numbers weren't out of sight, at first
test, but they were very high even then (I hope I'm typing these out
correctly):

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 40
AMY 2837 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 138 *
CA 11.2
PHOS 14.0 *
CRE 5.9 *
GLU 135
NA+ 142
K+ 3.6 *
TP 9.1 *
GLOB 4.7

Thank you,

Kolbard

"Kolbard" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I wouldn't even be posting about this, except Google Groups search is
broken.

My 16 year old cat was recently diagnosed with CRF (about 2-3 weeks
ago). She isn't dehydrated, but her phosphorus levels are through the
roof (19.7 at her last test). The vet didn't even mention anything
about phosphorus binders, but I was able to locate a website in 2
minutes. She's very skinny and fatigued. Anyway, I'd like to start
her on AlternaGel until we can get the powdered kind that mixes with
food, but since she isn't eating much, what can I do? Should I mix up
a syringe with diluted food and the gel? I read that the binders only
work when given with food. I'm kind of rattled about all this,
especially since I finally looked at a copy of my cat's numbers and
the vet doesn't seem to know what she's doing (we're going to look for
another one ASAP if we cannot discuss the phosphorus binders with
her).

For reference, my cat's numbers a

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 82
AMY 2381 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 171 *
CA 10.8
PHOS 19.7
CRE 7.9 *
GLU 134
NA+ 143
K+ 3.8
TP 8.8 *
GLOB 4.3

The BUN, PHOS, and CRE numbers are particularly alarming to me. The
vet actually mentioned that the numbers weren't out of sight, at first
test, but they were very high even then (I hope I'm typing these out
correctly):

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 40
AMY 2837 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 138 *
CA 11.2
PHOS 14.0 *
CRE 5.9 *
GLU 135
NA+ 142
K+ 3.6 *
TP 9.1 *
GLOB 4.7

Thank you,

Kolbard

On Apr 21, 10:03*pm, Kolbard wrote:
Hi,

I wouldn't even be posting about this, except Google Groups search is
broken.

My 16 year old cat was recently diagnosed with CRF (about 2-3 weeks
ago). *She isn't dehydrated, but her phosphorus levels are through the
roof (19.7 at her last test). *The vet didn't even mention anything
about phosphorus binders, but I was able to locate a website in 2
minutes. *She's very skinny and fatigued. *Anyway, I'd like to start
her on AlternaGel until we can get the powdered kind that mixes with
food, but since she isn't eating much, what can I do? *Should I mix up
a syringe with diluted food and the gel? *I read that the binders only
work when given with food. *I'm kind of rattled about all this,
especially since I finally looked at a copy of my cat's numbers and
the vet doesn't seem to know what she's doing (we're going to look for
another one ASAP if we cannot discuss the phosphorus binders with
her).


-------------
Ask your vet to phone in a prescription to BCP Pharmacy in Texas
1-800-481-1729. They have custom-formulated the phosphorus binder
(aluminum hydroxide) into capsules. I was told (by my vet) that the
aluminum hydroxide has a horrible taste to cats, and if you mix it in
the food, the cat will not eat that food again. The last thing you
want to do is discourage your CRF cat from eating. The reason you have
to give the aluminum hydroxide capsules at the same time as the food
is because you are trying to bind the phosphorus that it is in the
food. Another thing you can do (in addition to the capsules, not in
lieu of them) is provide your cat with a low phosphorus canned cat
food. Try to avoid dry cat food.

See: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm

I would also try to avoid low protein foods. That is the traditional
advice, and that is probably what your vet would advise, but cats need
at least a moderate amount of protein for healthy muscles. I will
leave it to Phil to elaborate on that subject. All I can tell you is
that after my cat Alex was diagnosed with CRF, I kept him on a low
phosphorus, moderate protein, regular canned cat food diet. I NEVER
used one of the prescription diets which I am personally convinced is
nothing more than a way for the pet food companies to make more money.
Dry foods are never preferable to canned foods because they are made
of grains (cats are obligate carnivores), and the cat is always in a
state of mild dehydration (even if he drinks a lot of water). And the
last thing you want is for a CRF cat to be dehydrated. At any rate, I
must have done something right because Alex's numbers (BUN and
creatinine) stabilized and then even improved a little. He lived with
CRF for 2+ years and ultimately died from cancer. Had he not died from
cancer, he probably could have gone on a lot longer with the CRF. The
vet (correctly) predicted that he would not die from CRF.

BTW, another problem with a CRF kitty is weight loss (you mention that
your cat is thin). If your cat isn't eating, ask your vet about giving
him 2.5 to 5 mg of Pepcid every day. Cats with CRF tend to feel
nauseated (which is why they don't want to eat). The Pepcid gets rid
of the nausea.
Good luck.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT), cindys
wrote:

On Apr 21, 10:03*pm, Kolbard wrote:
Hi,

I wouldn't even be posting about this, except Google Groups search is
broken.

My 16 year old cat was recently diagnosed with CRF (about 2-3 weeks
ago). *She isn't dehydrated, but her phosphorus levels are through the
roof (19.7 at her last test). *The vet didn't even mention anything
about phosphorus binders, but I was able to locate a website in 2
minutes. *She's very skinny and fatigued. *Anyway, I'd like to start
her on AlternaGel until we can get the powdered kind that mixes with
food, but since she isn't eating much, what can I do? *Should I mix up
a syringe with diluted food and the gel? *I read that the binders only
work when given with food. *I'm kind of rattled about all this,
especially since I finally looked at a copy of my cat's numbers and
the vet doesn't seem to know what she's doing (we're going to look for
another one ASAP if we cannot discuss the phosphorus binders with
her).


-------------
Ask your vet to phone in a prescription to BCP Pharmacy in Texas
1-800-481-1729. They have custom-formulated the phosphorus binder
(aluminum hydroxide) into capsules. I was told (by my vet) that the
aluminum hydroxide has a horrible taste to cats, and if you mix it in
the food, the cat will not eat that food again. The last thing you
want to do is discourage your CRF cat from eating. The reason you have
to give the aluminum hydroxide capsules at the same time as the food
is because you are trying to bind the phosphorus that it is in the
food. Another thing you can do (in addition to the capsules, not in
lieu of them) is provide your cat with a low phosphorus canned cat
food. Try to avoid dry cat food.

See: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm

I read here that the Generic Aluminum Hydroxide Dry Gel Powder is
supposed to be odorless and tasteless:
http://members.verizon.net/%7Evze2r6...es/binders.htm

Is it not?

I've never had luck pilling cats; I'd probably become a raging
alcoholic if I tried on a daily basis. ;]


I would also try to avoid low protein foods. That is the traditional
advice, and that is probably what your vet would advise, but cats need
at least a moderate amount of protein for healthy muscles. I will
leave it to Phil to elaborate on that subject. All I can tell you is
that after my cat Alex was diagnosed with CRF, I kept him on a low
phosphorus, moderate protein, regular canned cat food diet. I NEVER
used one of the prescription diets which I am personally convinced is
nothing more than a way for the pet food companies to make more money.
Dry foods are never preferable to canned foods because they are made
of grains (cats are obligate carnivores), and the cat is always in a
state of mild dehydration (even if he drinks a lot of water). And the
last thing you want is for a CRF cat to be dehydrated. At any rate, I
must have done something right because Alex's numbers (BUN and
creatinine) stabilized and then even improved a little. He lived with
CRF for 2+ years and ultimately died from cancer. Had he not died from
cancer, he probably could have gone on a lot longer with the CRF. The
vet (correctly) predicted that he would not die from CRF.

BTW, another problem with a CRF kitty is weight loss (you mention that
your cat is thin). If your cat isn't eating, ask your vet about giving
him 2.5 to 5 mg of Pepcid every day. Cats with CRF tend to feel
nauseated (which is why they don't want to eat). The Pepcid gets rid
of the nausea.
Good luck.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Thanks for the Pepcid advice. I'll prod around for further info and
check it out.

How are the "Senior" formula cat foods for a CRF cat? I know that
they're low in P and Ca, especially Science Diet and Royal Canin (I
thank Phil P. for that info).

Take care

Kolbard

On Apr 22, 3:09*am, Kolbard wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT), cindys
snip

I read here that the Generic Aluminum Hydroxide Dry Gel Powder is
supposed to be odorless and tasteless:http://members.verizon.net/%7Evze2r6...es/binders.htm

Is it not?

I couldn't say. I'm just repeating what my vet told me (and since she
wasn't selling the capsules, she didn't have anything to gain by
lying). Maybe my vet was unaware of this product or it's new. (Alex
has been deceased for over a year, and he was taking the capsules for
a couple of years before that). If it works for your cat, great,
because the pre-made capsules from the place in Texas cost about $55
for a one month's supply.


I would also try to avoid low protein foods. That is the traditional
advice, and that is probably what your vet would advise, but cats need
at least a moderate amount of protein for healthy muscles. I will
leave it to Phil to elaborate on that subject. All I can tell you is
that after my cat Alex was diagnosed with CRF, I kept him on a low
phosphorus, moderate protein, regular canned cat food diet. I NEVER
used one of the prescription diets which I am personally convinced is
nothing more than a way for the pet food companies to make more money.
Dry foods are never preferable to canned foods because they are made
of grains (cats are obligate carnivores), and the cat is always in a
state of mild dehydration (even if he drinks a lot of water). And the
last thing you want is for a CRF cat to be dehydrated. At any rate, I
must have done something right because Alex's numbers (BUN and
creatinine) stabilized and then even improved a little. He lived with
CRF for 2+ years and ultimately died from cancer. Had he not died from
cancer, he probably could have gone on a lot longer with the CRF. The
vet (correctly) predicted that he would not die from CRF.

BTW, another problem with a CRF kitty is weight loss (you mention that
your cat is thin). If your cat isn't eating, ask your vet about giving
him 2.5 to 5 mg of Pepcid every day. Cats with CRF tend to feel
nauseated (which is why they don't want to eat). The Pepcid gets rid
of the nausea.
Good luck.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

Thanks for the Pepcid advice. *I'll prod around for further info and
check it out.

How are the "Senior" formula cat foods for a CRF cat? *I know that
they're low in P and Ca, especially Science Diet and Royal Canin (I
thank Phil P. for that info).

I will always defer to Phil's advice. He is much more of an expert
than I am. But IIRC, most senior foods are low in phosphorus because
cats are generally very prone to developing CRF as they age. If I had
to choose between the above two foods, I would go with the Royal Canin
(which is what I buy for my cats for dry food, even though I continue
to try to convert them to canned food exclusively). I think Science
Diet is mostly junk. But if possible, your cat will be much better off
with a low phosphorus, moderate protein, canned food. If Phil tells
you something different from this, then go with his advice rather than
mine, but I think he will say the same as I'm saying (who do you think
taught me this stuff ? ;-)
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

----
Ask your vet to phone in a prescription to BCP Pharmacy in Texas
1-800-481-1729. They have custom-formulated the phosphorus binder
(aluminum hydroxide) into capsules. I was told (by my vet) that the
aluminum hydroxide has a horrible taste to cats, and if you mix it in
the food, the cat will not eat that food again. The last thing you
want to do is discourage your CRF cat from eating. The reason you have
to give the aluminum hydroxide capsules at the same time as the food
is because you are trying to bind the phosphorus that it is in the
food. Another thing you can do (in addition to the capsules, not in
lieu of them) is provide your cat with a low phosphorus canned cat
food. Try to avoid dry cat food.


I have a friend with two CRF cats. She feeds them some of the grain-
free Wellness canned and Innova Evo venison canned, along with a
phoshorous binder. She buys a big jar of powder without the need for a
prescription from www.thrivingpets.com. Contrary to what the other vet
said, the binder she uses has no taste (she has tasted a bit herself
just to see) and the cats accept it readily as a treat just before
their meal (she mixes the binder with a small amount of chicken baby
food). If, for some reason, the cat won't accept it that way, a simple
alternative is to mix the binder with a small amount of the chicken
baby food, and suck that up into a 3 ml oral syringe and "inject" it
into their mouth. I hope this is helpful to you.

Rene

On Apr 22, 3:54*pm, wrote:
----

Ask your vet to phone in a prescription to BCP Pharmacy in Texas
1-800-481-1729. They have custom-formulated the phosphorus binder
(aluminum hydroxide) into capsules. I was told (by my vet) that the
aluminum hydroxide has a horrible taste to cats, and if you mix it in
the food, the cat will not eat that food again. The last thing you
want to do is discourage your CRF cat from eating. The reason you have
to give the aluminum hydroxide capsules at the same time as the food
is because you are trying to bind the phosphorus that it is in the
food. Another thing you can do (in addition to the capsules, not in
lieu of them) is provide your cat with a low phosphorus canned cat
food. Try to avoid dry cat food.

I have a friend with two CRF cats. She feeds them some of the grain-
free Wellness canned and Innova Evo venison canned, along with a
phoshorous binder.

I used to feed my CRF kitty the grain-free Wellness, but IIRC, the
Innovo Evo was high in phosphorus. (??) The Wysong is also a great
choice (in terms of both quality and low phosphorus). I ordered a case
of it from Pet Food Direct. Unfortunately, my cat refused to eat it :-
(. I was able to donate the remaining cans to a shelter.

She buys a big jar of powder without the need for a
prescription fromwww.thrivingpets.com. Contrary to what the other vet
said, the binder she uses has no taste (she has tasted a bit herself
just to see)

None of my current cats requires a phosphorus binder, but I will still
share this information with my vet who is very open to learning about
new products. The reason she worked with the BCP pharmacy was because
at the time, the only options she was aware of had a bad taste. The
pharmacy put the product together in accordance with her instructions.
It would have been much easier for her to say "Go to thriving pets
website." FTR, I did buy the product directly from the pharmacy. It
wasn't something the vet was selling.

BTW: Aluminum hydroxide = Maalox.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

I was unable to go today, but my mother took her to another vet today,
in the hopes of getting her on an IV again, to see if it helped. The
vet took one look at her numbers and said, "Short answer, no, I can't
do anything." I've read of cats with numbers higher than these who
survived; should I try every damned vet in town until I find one who's
competant?


On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 21:03:39 -0500, Kolbard
wrote:

Hi,

I wouldn't even be posting about this, except Google Groups search is
broken.

My 16 year old cat was recently diagnosed with CRF (about 2-3 weeks
ago). She isn't dehydrated, but her phosphorus levels are through the
roof (19.7 at her last test). The vet didn't even mention anything
about phosphorus binders, but I was able to locate a website in 2
minutes. She's very skinny and fatigued. Anyway, I'd like to start
her on AlternaGel until we can get the powdered kind that mixes with
food, but since she isn't eating much, what can I do? Should I mix up
a syringe with diluted food and the gel? I read that the binders only
work when given with food. I'm kind of rattled about all this,
especially since I finally looked at a copy of my cat's numbers and
the vet doesn't seem to know what she's doing (we're going to look for
another one ASAP if we cannot discuss the phosphorus binders with
her).

For reference, my cat's numbers a

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 82
AMY 2381 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 171 *
CA 10.8
PHOS 19.7
CRE 7.9 *
GLU 134
NA+ 143
K+ 3.8
TP 8.8 *
GLOB 4.3

The BUN, PHOS, and CRE numbers are particularly alarming to me. The
vet actually mentioned that the numbers weren't out of sight, at first
test, but they were very high even then (I hope I'm typing these out
correctly):

ALB 4.4 *
ALP 18
ALT 40
AMY 2837 *
TBIL 0.2
BUN 138 *
CA 11.2
PHOS 14.0 *
CRE 5.9 *
GLU 135
NA+ 142
K+ 3.6 *
TP 9.1 *
GLOB 4.7

Thank you,

Kolbard


Kolbard

On Apr 22, 6:24*pm, Kolbard wrote:
I was unable to go today, but my mother took her to another vet today,
in the hopes of getting her on an IV again, to see if it helped. *The
vet took one look at her numbers and said, "Short answer, no, I can't
do anything." *I've read of cats with numbers higher than these who
survived; should I try every damned vet in town until I find one who's
competent?
-----------
Kolbard, I don't think these vets are incompetent, and I don't think
the issue is one of survival per se. I think the issue is how long is
your kitty going to maintain a good quality of life.

I was getting mixed up between your cat and the cat in the other
thread with CHF, ("When is it time to call it a day?") but the same
principle applies. There is no cure. It's not a question of whether or
not the cat is going to survive but rather for how long can the cat
maintain a good quality of life?

In the past, I have had two cats with CRF. In the first cat, the
disease was very advanced. I did everything I could to keep her
comfortable. It wasn't a question of her survival. It was a question
of using medications to keep her comfortable and knowing when to call
it a day. I think I waited too long. By the time I had her euthanized,
she was wobbly on her paws and drooling quite a bit (probably from
nausea). But since she was still eating and walking around and using
her litter box, I mistakenly believed she was okay.

Cats are very stoic and hide their suffering well. Even when I had her
euthanized, I felt guilty for having her euthanized too soon. Now, I
wish I had done it a week or two earlier. My vet (whom I trusted
completely) pointed out how bad the numbers were. I should have
believed her. Euthanasia isn't about the cat. It's about the person.
Please see what I wrote to Eddy in the "When is it time to call it a
day?" thread.

With my second cat, his CRF was much milder. His numbers were only
slightly elevated. He died from cancer. If he hadn't had the cancer,
he probably could have gone on for a very long time with the CRF and
had a good quality of life for a lot longer. But his numbers were
close to normal, not through the roof.

So, yes, try to maximize your cat's treatment but only for the sake of
his/her comfort. If the numbers are really high, and all the vets are
saying the same thing, that there is no hope, nothing that they can
do, consider that they may know what they're talking about. Please be
sure that your cat isn't just being stoic. You say your cat is "skinny
and fatigued." Cats get skinny from not eating, and the reason cats
don't eat is because they feel sick or have pain. This does not sound
good.

I will be interested to hear what Phil has to say about the numbers.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I've been there (as have many
of the other posters to this forum), and it's miserable.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

On Apr 22, 6:24*pm, Kolbard wrote:
I was unable to go today, but my mother took her to another vet today,
in the hopes of getting her on an IV again, to see if it helped. *The
vet took one look at her numbers and said, "Short answer, no, I can't
do anything." *I've read of cats with numbers higher than these who
survived; should I try every damned vet in town until I find one who's
competant?
------------
BTW, I think your cat should have IV fluids ASAP since she is
dehydrated. The cat will feel MUCH better once she is rehydrated. You
can even be taught to do this yourself at home. I can't believe a vet
would refuse to do this, no matter how grave the cat's condition.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.