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Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 28th 06, 04:08 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Jean B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 119
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent

Just the night before last, I was sitting here thinking I
would write a post saying Mingy has been fine since he blocked
and was diagnosed with Struvite crystals in January 2005.
Well, the next morning, I ended up calling the Vet, which led
to a quick trip to the Vet's and the finding that he was
plugged. Aaaargh. His bloodwork and EKG are fine though,
thank goodness.

It is really odd. Before he was blocked, I noticed he spent
lots of time in his litter box, and he was doing much licking.
This time, neither was the case. Just he hadn't used his
box in more than 24 hours. (This is tricky, because he
normally only pees once a day--much to my dismay.)

I am praying he doesn't replug over the weekend.... He peed
four times after we got home yesterday, because he had been
given fluids. But since then, Mingy has only eaten a tiny
tad, and I haven't noticed him drinking at all.

Now I am back to contemplating foods. Of course, the Vet
wants him to eat c/d or some other food that only vets can
provide. He gave me samples of three types, none of which are
mostly chicken, which seems to be Mingy's main food. (Had I
just not noticed before that the c/d is mostly pork?) Per
usual, my main concern is that Mingy eat. I will tinker later.

I was pleased that the Vet didn't give me dry c/d, although I
did see some there. I was perplexed though, because he spoke
of manganese, and then went on to the possible problem of
oxalate crystals forming. So, is it even advisable to try to
get Mingy to eat a c/d-type diet even right after he plugged?
Do mucous plugs necessarily indicate the presence of crystals?

And what is the feeling re pain killers and antibiotics post
visit? I was unhappy that they said to give Mingy a
painkiller when we got home, since they could have given him
on before we left. I brought my daughter home to help with
that. :-( And the Vet seemed to indicate there were all
possible thoughts re antibiotics--yes, no... That some vets
do nothing post plug--and that they don't really know. Sounds
like some human maladies, and how they thoughts re them keep
changing.

Will Mingy really deign to pee in a litterbox that only has a
tiny amount of special pellets in it? (The Vet expressed all
the pee, and then couldn't get more pee to test it. I am
thinking, if necessary, the Vet can get some pee when we go in
in two weeks for Ming's rabies shot.)

--
Jean B.
  #2  
Old October 28th 06, 06:35 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent


Jean B. wrote:
Just the night before last, I was sitting here thinking I
would write a post saying Mingy has been fine since he blocked
and was diagnosed with Struvite crystals in January 2005.
Well, the next morning, I ended up calling the Vet, which led
to a quick trip to the Vet's and the finding that he was
plugged. Aaaargh. His bloodwork and EKG are fine though,
thank goodness.

It is really odd. Before he was blocked, I noticed he spent
lots of time in his litter box, and he was doing much licking.
This time, neither was the case. Just he hadn't used his
box in more than 24 hours. (This is tricky, because he
normally only pees once a day--much to my dismay.)

I am praying he doesn't replug over the weekend.... He peed
four times after we got home yesterday, because he had been
given fluids. But since then, Mingy has only eaten a tiny
tad, and I haven't noticed him drinking at all.

Now I am back to contemplating foods. Of course, the Vet
wants him to eat c/d or some other food that only vets can
provide. He gave me samples of three types, none of which are
mostly chicken, which seems to be Mingy's main food. (Had I
just not noticed before that the c/d is mostly pork?) Per
usual, my main concern is that Mingy eat. I will tinker later.

I was pleased that the Vet didn't give me dry c/d, although I
did see some there. I was perplexed though, because he spoke
of manganese, and then went on to the possible problem of
oxalate crystals forming. So, is it even advisable to try to
get Mingy to eat a c/d-type diet even right after he plugged?
Do mucous plugs necessarily indicate the presence of crystals?

And what is the feeling re pain killers and antibiotics post
visit? I was unhappy that they said to give Mingy a
painkiller when we got home, since they could have given him
on before we left. I brought my daughter home to help with
that. :-( And the Vet seemed to indicate there were all
possible thoughts re antibiotics--yes, no... That some vets
do nothing post plug--and that they don't really know. Sounds
like some human maladies, and how they thoughts re them keep
changing.

Will Mingy really deign to pee in a litterbox that only has a
tiny amount of special pellets in it? (The Vet expressed all
the pee, and then couldn't get more pee to test it. I am
thinking, if necessary, the Vet can get some pee when we go in
in two weeks for Ming's rabies shot.)

--
Jean B. ALSO YOU COULD TRY CAT FOOD


  #3  
Old October 29th 06, 12:16 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
jmc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 610
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent

Suddenly, without warning, Jean B. exclaimed (29-Oct-06 12:38 AM):
Just the night before last, I was sitting here thinking I would write a
post saying Mingy has been fine since he blocked and was diagnosed with
Struvite crystals in January 2005. Well, the next morning, I ended up
calling the Vet, which led to a quick trip to the Vet's and the finding
that he was plugged. Aaaargh. His bloodwork and EKG are fine though,
thank goodness.

I feel your pain. Meep has had cystitis attacks twice. Fortunately,
she's female so doesn't block (I'd never let her get that bad) but I
hadn't learned her little clues before the second time, when she started
peeing blood (yikes!)

It is really odd. Before he was blocked, I noticed he spent lots of
time in his litter box, and he was doing much licking. This time,
neither was the case. Just he hadn't used his box in more than 24
hours. (This is tricky, because he normally only pees once a day--much
to my dismay.)

All I can suggest here is to watch him closely, and try to learn the
little clues that all is not well. Meep also only peed once a day,
which is a precursor to problems, according to my vet: concentrated
urine is much more likely to crystallize. He's not drinking enough.

I am praying he doesn't replug over the weekend.... He peed four times
after we got home yesterday, because he had been given fluids. But
since then, Mingy has only eaten a tiny tad, and I haven't noticed him
drinking at all.

Drinking is really, really important. You gotta get him to drink. Try
putting multiple sources of water all over the house, especially in
areas he spends time in. Note which ones he drinks from and which he
doesn't. At Meep's second attack, she only had water near her food, and
didn't drink much. I've since realized she prefers her water away from
her food. She has one bowl of water near her cat furniture downstairs,
a Drinkwell in this room, and a big water bowl in the bedroom, where she
prefers to drink. She drinks a LOT more now than she used to.

Now I am back to contemplating foods. Of course, the Vet wants him to
eat c/d or some other food that only vets can provide. He gave me
samples of three types, none of which are mostly chicken, which seems to
be Mingy's main food. (Had I just not noticed before that the c/d is
mostly pork?) Per usual, my main concern is that Mingy eat. I will
tinker later.


Meep get a mix of Royal Canin c/d and Iams Senior 7+ for her dry food.
I have more problem with her canned, she flatly refuses most
high-quality canned food, so she gets one small can of whatever she'll
eat, each night. She gets her dry food mostly free choice, a controlled
amount though.

For a cat with cystitis, wet food is preferred over dry. You can add a
bit of water to his wet food as well, I do that for Meep as well.

I was pleased that the Vet didn't give me dry c/d, although I did see
some there. I was perplexed though, because he spoke of manganese, and
then went on to the possible problem of oxalate crystals forming. So,
is it even advisable to try to get Mingy to eat a c/d-type diet even
right after he plugged? Do mucous plugs necessarily indicate the
presence of crystals?


I get mixed signals here too. I've had one vet tell me it's not a good
idea to keep them on c/d for too long, because the "opposite" crystals
can form, but another has said I can keep her on c/d for life. I've
been splitting the difference with the half-and-half. Seems to be
working though. If I put her in a high-stress situation (like moving or
a cattery), I switch her to all c/d beforehand.

And what is the feeling re pain killers and antibiotics post visit? I
was unhappy that they said to give Mingy a painkiller when we got home,
since they could have given him on before we left. I brought my
daughter home to help with that. :-( And the Vet seemed to indicate
there were all possible thoughts re antibiotics--yes, no... That some
vets do nothing post plug--and that they don't really know. Sounds like
some human maladies, and how they thoughts re them keep changing.


My vet did both the antibiotics and the painkillers, at the clinic. I
had to give her a series of antibiotic pills for a few days after the
second attack. I think it's "just in case" the problem is caused by a
bacterial infection, or to prevent a secondary infection, caused by
damage from the crystals.

Will Mingy really deign to pee in a litterbox that only has a tiny
amount of special pellets in it? (The Vet expressed all the pee, and
then couldn't get more pee to test it. I am thinking, if necessary, the
Vet can get some pee when we go in in two weeks for Ming's rabies shot.)


Well, depends on the cat. Meep hates the special pellets, uses the box
but pees over the edge. If I have to use them again, I'll put a smaller
box inside a bigger one, so when she does this I still get a sample.

If he doesn't, the vet can get a sample using a needle. The whole idea
gave me the willies, and still does, but there was no ill effects when
they did this for Meep, since she's got some incredible sphincter
control and no vet has managed to get a sample by attempted expressing.

Good luck. I'd also suggest doing some research on this NG, these
problems are very common so there's a lot of posts about them here. To
save you a bit of time, here's a quote of a post I did just the other day:

"[...]have you talked to your vet about a glucosamine supplement? It is
supposed to coat the bladder and reduce damage/discomfort from any
crystals that form. It seems to be working very well for Meep, she had
two cystitis attacks within months of each other, but she's been fine
now for nearly a year. I actually give her a glucosamine/chonodroitin
supplement from Dr Fosters and Smith, with my vet's blessing. I also
keep around a tube of 'urinary acidifier', which is essentially a
dl-methionine supplement - if I think she's uncomfortable, I start
feeding her the recommended dosage, and within a day or so she's back to
normal.

Joint ca http://tinyurl.com/y7h65s

Urinary acidifier: http://tinyurl.com/mvvbw "

Hope this helps, and good luck!

jmc
  #4  
Old October 29th 06, 03:37 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Jean B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 119
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent

jmc wrote:

I feel your pain. Meep has had cystitis attacks twice. Fortunately,
she's female so doesn't block (I'd never let her get that bad) but I
hadn't learned her little clues before the second time, when she started
peeing blood (yikes!)

All I can suggest here is to watch him closely, and try to learn the
little clues that all is not well. Meep also only peed once a day,
which is a precursor to problems, according to my vet: concentrated
urine is much more likely to crystallize. He's not drinking enough.

Drinking is really, really important. You gotta get him to drink. Try
putting multiple sources of water all over the house, especially in
areas he spends time in. Note which ones he drinks from and which he
doesn't. At Meep's second attack, she only had water near her food, and
didn't drink much. I've since realized she prefers her water away from
her food. She has one bowl of water near her cat furniture downstairs,
a Drinkwell in this room, and a big water bowl in the bedroom, where she
prefers to drink. She drinks a LOT more now than she used to.

Meep get a mix of Royal Canin c/d and Iams Senior 7+ for her dry food. I
have more problem with her canned, she flatly refuses most high-quality
canned food, so she gets one small can of whatever she'll eat, each
night. She gets her dry food mostly free choice, a controlled amount
though.

For a cat with cystitis, wet food is preferred over dry. You can add a
bit of water to his wet food as well, I do that for Meep as well.

I get mixed signals here too. I've had one vet tell me it's not a good
idea to keep them on c/d for too long, because the "opposite" crystals
can form, but another has said I can keep her on c/d for life. I've
been splitting the difference with the half-and-half. Seems to be
working though. If I put her in a high-stress situation (like moving or
a cattery), I switch her to all c/d beforehand.

My vet did both the antibiotics and the painkillers, at the clinic. I
had to give her a series of antibiotic pills for a few days after the
second attack. I think it's "just in case" the problem is caused by a
bacterial infection, or to prevent a secondary infection, caused by
damage from the crystals.

[peeing in small amt of pellets]

Well, depends on the cat. Meep hates the special pellets, uses the box
but pees over the edge. If I have to use them again, I'll put a smaller
box inside a bigger one, so when she does this I still get a sample.

If he doesn't, the vet can get a sample using a needle. The whole idea
gave me the willies, and still does, but there was no ill effects when
they did this for Meep, since she's got some incredible sphincter
control and no vet has managed to get a sample by attempted expressing.

Good luck. I'd also suggest doing some research on this NG, these
problems are very common so there's a lot of posts about them here. To
save you a bit of time, here's a quote of a post I did just the other day:

"[...]have you talked to your vet about a glucosamine supplement? It is
supposed to coat the bladder and reduce damage/discomfort from any
crystals that form. It seems to be working very well for Meep, she had
two cystitis attacks within months of each other, but she's been fine
now for nearly a year. I actually give her a glucosamine/chonodroitin
supplement from Dr Fosters and Smith, with my vet's blessing. I also
keep around a tube of 'urinary acidifier', which is essentially a
dl-methionine supplement - if I think she's uncomfortable, I start
feeding her the recommended dosage, and within a day or so she's back to
normal.

Joint ca http://tinyurl.com/y7h65s

Urinary acidifier: http://tinyurl.com/mvvbw "

Hope this helps, and good luck!

jmc


Thanks, jmc! We are pretty much on the same page on most of
the issues and the responses, although you are ahead of me on
the curve when it comes to glucosamine. Also, I had been
thinking of using a small litterbox, and the idea of putting
it inside the larger one is great!

I have been pondering these issues ever since Mingy blocked in
January 2005. At the time, I spoke about it here and did much
research. Now I have been doing more research, trying to get
more up-to-date info re the foods, etc. I find it interesting
that we both, for example, are reluctant to use straight food
intended for controlling crystals. I also use part prescribed
food and part normal (but good) food, and I also vary the
amount, depending on how stressed Mingy is. [I REALLY wish
Halloween was not coming up in a few days, because Mingy will
be freaked out be the constant ringing of the doorbell--not
what he needs now. It is very tempting to just stay on the
doorstep--or maybe plant myself at the storm door. Maybe I'll
just have to do that. Mingy's well-being comes first, as cat
slaves know.)

Like Meep, Mingy really prefers dry food, alas. I have gotten
him to eat more canned food, but he has not totally gotten off
the dry food. I will push him even harder to do so, but you
know cats.... There is always the concern that they do need
to eat! I was pleased to see the c/d mashes, since Mingy
likes his food in pretty much puree form.

After his first blockage, I did get him a fountain, which he
loves, and I put some water for him in my bedroom. He avails
himself of both sources, but I still think he doesn't
drink--or pee--enough. Maybe I'll go get him some ice today,
since he likes playing with ice in his water and consumes
water as he plays. Of course, he may outsmart me and just
ignore it.

Thanks again, jmc!

--
Jean B.
  #5  
Old October 30th 06, 07:17 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,027
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent


"Jean B." wrote in message
...
Just the night before last, I was sitting here thinking I
would write a post saying Mingy has been fine since he blocked
and was diagnosed with Struvite crystals in January 2005.
Well, the next morning, I ended up calling the Vet, which led
to a quick trip to the Vet's and the finding that he was
plugged. Aaaargh. His bloodwork and EKG are fine though,
thank goodness.


Depending on the size and number of crystals, it could take a month or
longer to dissolve. So, its not unusual for cat to reblock soon after he was
unblocked. You just have to watch him very closely.



It is really odd. Before he was blocked, I noticed he spent
lots of time in his litter box, and he was doing much licking.
This time, neither was the case. Just he hadn't used his
box in more than 24 hours. (This is tricky, because he
normally only pees once a day--much to my dismay.)

I am praying he doesn't replug over the weekend.... He peed
four times after we got home yesterday, because he had been
given fluids. But since then, Mingy has only eaten a tiny
tad, and I haven't noticed him drinking at all.



Try putting a dab of salt on the tip of his nose or lips- that might
encourage him to drink. Just wet the tip of your finger- dab it a little
salt. You can also give him tuna water from a can of tuna packed in water
(never oil).


Now I am back to contemplating foods. Of course, the Vet
wants him to eat c/d or some other food that only vets can
provide. He gave me samples of three types, none of which are
mostly chicken, which seems to be Mingy's main food. (Had I
just not noticed before that the c/d is mostly pork?) Per
usual, my main concern is that Mingy eat. I will tinker later.


Ask your vet about Hill's Prescription c/d with Chicken- it only comes in
the canned version.



I was pleased that the Vet didn't give me dry c/d, although I
did see some there. I was perplexed though, because he spoke
of manganese, and then went on to the possible problem of
oxalate crystals forming.



The low magnesium/highly acidic diets used to dissolve/prevent struvite can
also predispose a cat to develop calcium oxalate. The single most important
thing in preventing both types of crystals is *water*.


So, is it even advisable to try to
get Mingy to eat a c/d-type diet even right after he plugged?
Do mucous plugs necessarily indicate the presence of crystals?



Usually, but not always. The mucosal cells that line the bladder and
urethra secrete mucus when they're inflammed or irritated. Small crystals
can irritate and inflame the mucosal lining and then become trapped in the
mucus. Plugs are something like fruit jello. The mucus (a/k/a matrix) is
something like the gelatin in jello. The crystals would be like the fruit
suspended in the gelatin. Plugs usually get caught in the tip of penis
where the urethral lumen is the narrowest- but they can lodge anywhere in
the urinary tract.




And what is the feeling re pain killers and antibiotics post
visit? I was unhappy that they said to give Mingy a
painkiller when we got home, since they could have given him
on before we left. I brought my daughter home to help with
that. :-( And the Vet seemed to indicate there were all
possible thoughts re antibiotics--yes, no... That some vets
do nothing post plug--and that they don't really know. Sounds
like some human maladies, and how they thoughts re them keep
changing.


Which pain killer did they give you?



Will Mingy really deign to pee in a litterbox that only has a
tiny amount of special pellets in it? (The Vet expressed all
the pee, and then couldn't get more pee to test it. I am
thinking, if necessary, the Vet can get some pee when we go in
in two weeks for Ming's rabies shot.)


The easiest way to get a urine sample from a cat is hold a long basting
spoon under him while he's peeing, then just draw it from the spoon with a
syringe. I have low-sided dog litter boxes just for that purpose. The
Second Chance Miniature Dog size (24"x20"x5") works the best. Since you'll
probably need to collect samples frequently to monitor his urine, the $18
for the low litter box might be a good investment- its cheaper than the
beads and you don't have switch his litter.
http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_E...boxes_dogs.jpg

Once get the hang of collecting urine, you might want to invest in a hand
held pH meter. I have a Hanna Checker 1- about $35- simple to use and very
accurate. Just dip the probe in the urine like a thermometer.


Keep the faith,

Phil



  #6  
Old October 30th 06, 02:30 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Jean B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 119
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent

Phil P. wrote:

First, thanks so much for your response, Phil. I find what
you say very useful, and you are very kind to share your vast
store of knowledge with us.


Depending on the size and number of crystals, it could take a month or
longer to dissolve. So, its not unusual for cat to reblock soon after he was
unblocked. You just have to watch him very closely.


I sure am. I do guess, then, that I should use c/d for this
month or so--or REALLY push him to eat canned food and to
drink water. (Note to self: get that ice!)



Try putting a dab of salt on the tip of his nose or lips- that might
encourage him to drink. Just wet the tip of your finger- dab it a little
salt. You can also give him tuna water from a can of tuna packed in water
(never oil).


Unfortunately, Mingy doesn't fall for the tuna water ploy.
I'll try again though. I was going to ask whether this should
be the no-salt kind, given your comment re salt it shouldn't be?

Ask your vet about Hill's Prescription c/d with Chicken- it only comes in
the canned version.


Oh good. I was thinking they just changed formulas. I can
get this at the veterinary hospital near here, I think. The
still let me buy him food there, since they have the record
from his previous blockage.


The low magnesium/highly acidic diets used to dissolve/prevent struvite can
also predispose a cat to develop calcium oxalate.


That is what I worry about!!!! Esp. since I have read Persian
cats are prone to developing oxalate crystals! I am extremely
reluctant to use straight c/d or whatever and prefer to go the
canned food plus water route. BUT getting Mingy to drink (and
to pee more than once a day) is most difficult. You know cats
do what they want to do. (In this case, I'll append an "alas".)

The single most important
thing in preventing both types of crystals is *water*.


Yup. Maybe I'll put a fountain in my bedroom too, in addition
to seeing whether he still likes ice! He does drink from the
cup in my bedroom, and he loves the fountain in the kitchen.


Usually, but not always. The mucosal cells that line the bladder and
urethra secrete mucus when they're inflammed or irritated. Small crystals
can irritate and inflame the mucosal lining and then become trapped in the
mucus. Plugs are something like fruit jello. The mucus (a/k/a matrix) is
something like the gelatin in jello. The crystals would be like the fruit
suspended in the gelatin. Plugs usually get caught in the tip of penis
where the urethral lumen is the narrowest- but they can lodge anywhere in
the urinary tract.


Okay. This answers my main question now. The relationship
between plugs and crystals was not clear to me.

Next question, is there a technical difference between being
plugged and being blocked? I was thinking "plugged" refers to
the mucus (etc.) type issue, while blocked may refer to
something else (or maybe blocked includes plugged?)....



Which pain killer did they give you?


Meloxicam. The vet said it tasted like honey. Do cats LIKE
honey? That sounded like a flavor intended to appeal to people!


The easiest way to get a urine sample from a cat is hold a long basting
spoon under him while he's peeing, then just draw it from the spoon with a
syringe. I have low-sided dog litter boxes just for that purpose. The
Second Chance Miniature Dog size (24"x20"x5") works the best. Since you'll
probably need to collect samples frequently to monitor his urine, the $18
for the low litter box might be a good investment- its cheaper than the
beads and you don't have switch his litter.
http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_E...boxes_dogs.jpg

Fun, fun, fun! I guess I'd better get used to it though.

Once get the hang of collecting urine, you might want to invest in a hand
held pH meter. I have a Hanna Checker 1- about $35- simple to use and very
accurate. Just dip the probe in the urine like a thermometer.


More good advice!


Thanks again, Phil. You are a treasure!

--
Jean B.
  #7  
Old November 2nd 06, 08:02 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,027
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent


"Jean B." wrote in message
...
Phil P. wrote:

First, thanks so much for your response, Phil. I find what
you say very useful, and you are very kind to share your vast
store of knowledge with us.


Depending on the size and number of crystals, it could take a month or
longer to dissolve. So, its not unusual for cat to reblock soon after he

was
unblocked. You just have to watch him very closely.


I sure am. I do guess, then, that I should use c/d for this
month or so--or REALLY push him to eat canned food and to
drink water. (Note to self: get that ice!)


To dissolve the crystals, he should be eating s/d-- c/d is only meant for
prevention. If he's eating c/d, it will take much longer than a month to
dissolve formed crystals. If he won't eat s/d, speak to your vet about
adding an acidifier to a canned food that he'll eat.


Try putting a dab of salt on the tip of his nose or lips- that might
encourage him to drink. Just wet the tip of your finger- dab it a

little
salt. You can also give him tuna water from a can of tuna packed in

water
(never oil).


Unfortunately, Mingy doesn't fall for the tuna water ploy.
I'll try again though. I was going to ask whether this should
be the no-salt kind, given your comment re salt it shouldn't be?



Its ok to give him a little salt to stimulate his thurst- it won't affect
his blood pressure or kidneys. You could also try making home made chicken
broth- without the spices. Most cats I know lap it up.



Ask your vet about Hill's Prescription c/d with Chicken- it only comes

in
the canned version.


Oh good. I was thinking they just changed formulas. I can
get this at the veterinary hospital near here, I think. The
still let me buy him food there, since they have the record
from his previous blockage.



If he still has crystals, he should be on s/d. c/d might prevent new
crystals from forming and prevent existing crystals from growing- but it
will take much longer to dissolve existing crystals with c/d than with s/d.


The low magnesium/highly acidic diets used to dissolve/prevent struvite

can
also predispose a cat to develop calcium oxalate.


That is what I worry about!!!! Esp. since I have read Persian
cats are prone to developing oxalate crystals! I am extremely
reluctant to use straight c/d or whatever and prefer to go the
canned food plus water route. BUT getting Mingy to drink (and
to pee more than once a day) is most difficult. You know cats
do what they want to do. (In this case, I'll append an "alas".)



Try homemade chicken broth as I mentioned. That should increase his water
intake and urine volume. But he still might need a urinary acidifer if he
still has crystals. Actually, giving him a urinary acidifer and giving him
a regular canned food that he'll eat might not be a bad idea. A regular
canned food usually contains normal magnesium- which inhibits oxalate.
Magnesium is only a problem when urine pH rises above 6.1 or 6.2. Regular
canned food is designed to keep the urine at pH 6.2 -- 6.4. So, it won't
take much supplemental acidifier to keep his urine pH 6.1 and dissolve
crystals.



The single most important
thing in preventing both types of crystals is *water*.


Yup. Maybe I'll put a fountain in my bedroom too, in addition
to seeing whether he still likes ice! He does drink from the
cup in my bedroom, and he loves the fountain in the kitchen.


If he likes fountains, get a few more if you can. *Anything* to encourage
him to drink!




Usually, but not always. The mucosal cells that line the bladder and
urethra secrete mucus when they're inflammed or irritated. Small

crystals
can irritate and inflame the mucosal lining and then become trapped in

the
mucus. Plugs are something like fruit jello. The mucus (a/k/a matrix)

is
something like the gelatin in jello. The crystals would be like the

fruit
suspended in the gelatin. Plugs usually get caught in the tip of penis
where the urethral lumen is the narrowest- but they can lodge anywhere

in
the urinary tract.


Okay. This answers my main question now. The relationship
between plugs and crystals was not clear to me.

Next question, is there a technical difference between being
plugged and being blocked? I was thinking "plugged" refers to
the mucus (etc.) type issue, while blocked may refer to
something else (or maybe blocked includes plugged?)....



The terms are often used interchangeably- although they probably shouldn't
be.


Which pain killer did they give you?


Meloxicam. The vet said it tasted like honey. Do cats LIKE
honey? That sounded like a flavor intended to appeal to people!


Jean, meloxicam has very narrow safety margin in cats. I wouldn't use it in
my cats or any cats in my care. Here's an excerpt from an article by
Elizabeth Hardie, Diplomate American College of Veterinary Surgeons:

"Safety studies performed to assess the safety of the one time 0.3 mg/kg SQ
meloxicam dose demonstrated a narrow margin of safety. Cats given 0.3 mg/kg
for eight days developed vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, and decreased food
consumption. Two of 4 cats were moribund or dead by day 9, and reddened GI
mucosa was seen at necropsy in 3 of 4 cats. Repeated use of meloxicam in
cats in clinical settings has been associated with renal failure and death.
(package insert) Since there are no studies examining the pharmacokinetics
and pharmacokinetics of repeat dosing of meloxicam, it is not known if there
is an effective long term dose with minimal toxicity. Thus, recommended
long term doses of 0.025 mg/kg daily or every other day are based solely on
clinician experience."





The easiest way to get a urine sample from a cat is hold a long basting
spoon under him while he's peeing, then just draw it from the spoon with

a
syringe. I have low-sided dog litter boxes just for that purpose. The
Second Chance Miniature Dog size (24"x20"x5") works the best. Since

you'll
probably need to collect samples frequently to monitor his urine, the

$18
for the low litter box might be a good investment- its cheaper than the
beads and you don't have switch his litter.

http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_E...boxes_dogs.jpg

Fun, fun, fun! I guess I'd better get used to it though.


What's really funny is when the cat turns around to sniff and cover and
nothing is there! They sniff around the whole box looking for their pee!
Its really funny! lol



Once get the hang of collecting urine, you might want to invest in a

hand
held pH meter. I have a Hanna Checker 1- about $35- simple to use and

very
accurate. Just dip the probe in the urine like a thermometer.


More good advice!



The meter pays for itself by eliminating just one trip to vet for a pH
check-- not to mention the stress you'll save Mingy. Also, you'll be able
to keep a much closer watch on his urine pH which might actually prevent an
emergency. You'll know to call your vet as soon as you see the pH rising.




Thanks again, Phil. You are a treasure!



Thanks. I think you might be right because when I go to the beach the cats
always try to bury me.

Please keep me posted.

Good luck,

Phil




  #8  
Old November 4th 06, 07:18 PM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Jean B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 119
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent

Phil P. wrote:

To dissolve the crystals, he should be eating s/d-- c/d is only meant for
prevention. If he's eating c/d, it will take much longer than a month to
dissolve formed crystals. If he won't eat s/d, speak to your vet about
adding an acidifier to a canned food that he'll eat.


Gee, I wonder why he was never prescribed s/d? I'll ask about
that and an acidifier when I see the vet in a few days (if not
sooner, but my fingers and everything else are crossed).


Its ok to give him a little salt to stimulate his thurst- it won't affect
his blood pressure or kidneys. You could also try making home made chicken
broth- without the spices. Most cats I know lap it up.


Good idea! Since he does like chicken, he may just like
chicken broth. Any suggested amount of salt in that? I am
thinking I can make a fairly large batch and then freeze
portions of it.


If he still has crystals, he should be on s/d. c/d might prevent new
crystals from forming and prevent existing crystals from growing- but it
will take much longer to dissolve existing crystals with c/d than with s/d.

Okay.

Try homemade chicken broth as I mentioned. That should increase his water
intake and urine volume. But he still might need a urinary acidifer if he
still has crystals. Actually, giving him a urinary acidifer and giving him
a regular canned food that he'll eat might not be a bad idea. A regular
canned food usually contains normal magnesium- which inhibits oxalate.
Magnesium is only a problem when urine pH rises above 6.1 or 6.2. Regular
canned food is designed to keep the urine at pH 6.2 -- 6.4. So, it won't
take much supplemental acidifier to keep his urine pH 6.1 and dissolve
crystals.


That sounds like the most desirable route.

If he likes fountains, get a few more if you can. *Anything* to encourage
him to drink!


I am going to put a fountain in my bedroom too. He probably
would use it even more than the cup that he likes up there.

Unfortunately, he seems not to remember that he liked ice!

The terms are often used interchangeably- although they probably shouldn't
be.


Hence, my confusion.


Which pain killer did they give you?

Meloxicam. The vet said it tasted like honey. Do cats LIKE
honey? That sounded like a flavor intended to appeal to people!


Jean, meloxicam has very narrow safety margin in cats. I wouldn't use it in
my cats or any cats in my care. Here's an excerpt from an article by
Elizabeth Hardie, Diplomate American College of Veterinary Surgeons:

"Safety studies performed to assess the safety of the one time 0.3 mg/kg SQ
meloxicam dose demonstrated a narrow margin of safety. Cats given 0.3 mg/kg
for eight days developed vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, and decreased food
consumption. Two of 4 cats were moribund or dead by day 9, and reddened GI
mucosa was seen at necropsy in 3 of 4 cats. Repeated use of meloxicam in
cats in clinical settings has been associated with renal failure and death.
(package insert) Since there are no studies examining the pharmacokinetics
and pharmacokinetics of repeat dosing of meloxicam, it is not known if there
is an effective long term dose with minimal toxicity. Thus, recommended
long term doses of 0.025 mg/kg daily or every other day are based solely on
clinician experience."


Uh, I'm REALLY glad I didn't give this to him!!!! Are there
any better pain killers for cats--if they are warranted?


The meter pays for itself by eliminating just one trip to vet for a pH
check-- not to mention the stress you'll save Mingy. Also, you'll be able
to keep a much closer watch on his urine pH which might actually prevent an
emergency. You'll know to call your vet as soon as you see the pH rising.


And I do want to minimize his stress level to the degree
possible. I'll look into that, Phil.

Please keep me posted.

Good luck,

Phil


Thanks again, Phil. I really appreciate your taking the time
to answer my posts.

--
Jean B.
  #9  
Old November 6th 06, 06:04 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,027
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent


"Jean B." wrote in message
...
Phil P. wrote:

To dissolve the crystals, he should be eating s/d-- c/d is only meant

for
prevention. If he's eating c/d, it will take much longer than a month

to
dissolve formed crystals. If he won't eat s/d, speak to your vet about
adding an acidifier to a canned food that he'll eat.


Gee, I wonder why he was never prescribed s/d? I'll ask about
that and an acidifier when I see the vet in a few days (if not
sooner, but my fingers and everything else are crossed).



I'm surprised too. s/d is the first line treatment for dissolving struvite.
s/d should only be fed for 2-3 months- or until most of the struvite
dissolves. Long-term feeding can result in metabolic acidosis, kidney
damage or even demineralization of bone.




Its ok to give him a little salt to stimulate his thurst- it won't

affect
his blood pressure or kidneys. You could also try making home made

chicken
broth- without the spices. Most cats I know lap it up.


Good idea! Since he does like chicken, he may just like
chicken broth. Any suggested amount of salt in that? I am
thinking I can make a fairly large batch and then freeze
portions of it.


You might not have to and any- See if he laps it up without it- you can
always add a pinch or two if you have to.




If he still has crystals, he should be on s/d. c/d might prevent new
crystals from forming and prevent existing crystals from growing- but it
will take much longer to dissolve existing crystals with c/d than with

s/d.

Okay.

Try homemade chicken broth as I mentioned. That should increase his

water
intake and urine volume. But he still might need a urinary acidifer if

he
still has crystals. Actually, giving him a urinary acidifer and giving

him
a regular canned food that he'll eat might not be a bad idea. A regular
canned food usually contains normal magnesium- which inhibits oxalate.
Magnesium is only a problem when urine pH rises above 6.1 or 6.2.

Regular
canned food is designed to keep the urine at pH 6.2 -- 6.4. So, it won't
take much supplemental acidifier to keep his urine pH 6.1 and dissolve
crystals.


That sounds like the most desirable route.


That's about the only alternative if he won't eat a prescription food.
Before you go that route, you might want to try Purina's UR Urinary St/Ox
and Eukanuba's Low pH/S. I'd try Purina's first.



If he likes fountains, get a few more if you can. *Anything* to

encourage
him to drink!


I am going to put a fountain in my bedroom too. He probably
would use it even more than the cup that he likes up there.

Unfortunately, he seems not to remember that he liked ice!


I'd freeze the some of chicken broth in ice cube trays and throw a cube or
two in his water bowl.



The terms are often used interchangeably- although they probably

shouldn't
be.


Hence, my confusion.



Some vets still call urolithiasis and crystalluria "FUS" (feline urological
syndrome)!





Which pain killer did they give you?
Meloxicam. The vet said it tasted like honey. Do cats LIKE
honey? That sounded like a flavor intended to appeal to people!


Jean, meloxicam has very narrow safety margin in cats. I wouldn't use it

in
my cats or any cats in my care. Here's an excerpt from an article by
Elizabeth Hardie, Diplomate American College of Veterinary Surgeons:

"Safety studies performed to assess the safety of the one time 0.3 mg/kg

SQ
meloxicam dose demonstrated a narrow margin of safety. Cats given 0.3

mg/kg
for eight days developed vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, and decreased

food
consumption. Two of 4 cats were moribund or dead by day 9, and reddened

GI
mucosa was seen at necropsy in 3 of 4 cats. Repeated use of meloxicam

in
cats in clinical settings has been associated with renal failure and

death.
(package insert) Since there are no studies examining the

pharmacokinetics
and pharmacokinetics of repeat dosing of meloxicam, it is not known if

there
is an effective long term dose with minimal toxicity. Thus, recommended
long term doses of 0.025 mg/kg daily or every other day are based solely

on
clinician experience."


Uh, I'm REALLY glad I didn't give this to him!!!! Are there
any better pain killers for cats--if they are warranted?


Yes- and less risky.


The meter pays for itself by eliminating just one trip to vet for a pH
check-- not to mention the stress you'll save Mingy. Also, you'll be

able
to keep a much closer watch on his urine pH which might actually prevent

an
emergency. You'll know to call your vet as soon as you see the pH

rising.

And I do want to minimize his stress level to the degree
possible. I'll look into that, Phil.

Please keep me posted.

Good luck,

Phil


Thanks again, Phil. I really appreciate your taking the time
to answer my posts.


I'm sorry I took so long to reply- I've been really busy.


Please keep me posted on Mingy's progress.

Good luck,

Phil









  #10  
Old November 7th 06, 07:49 AM posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav
tension_on_the_wire
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 547
Default Plugs, etc.--one can never get complacent


Phil P. wrote:
Once get the hang of collecting urine, you might want to invest in a

hand
held pH meter. I have a Hanna Checker 1- about $35- simple to use and

very
accurate. Just dip the probe in the urine like a thermometer.


More good advice!



The meter pays for itself by eliminating just one trip to vet for a pH
check-- not to mention the stress you'll save Mingy. Also, you'll be able
to keep a much closer watch on his urine pH which might actually prevent an
emergency. You'll know to call your vet as soon as you see the pH rising.


Hi Phil, I'm baaaaack! 8^P

This is just a quickie.....have you ever tried using
those quick strips for pH-testing in aquariums?
Using them to check cat urine, I mean, obviously?
Or Ketostrips? (given to humans with diabetes to
check urine pH and presence of ketones)
I'd be interested in knowing if they correlate with
this handheld meter because they might be an
inexpensive alternative for someone who only
needs to check urine pH for a short term period.

--tension

 




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