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  #21  
Old April 26th 04, 11:08 PM
good golly Ms Molly
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Gee wrote:


"Kristine Kochanski" wrote in message
...
Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them
- and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
prodding them. This can't be good for a cat! Every cat was obviously
incredibly loved and pampered, I just find this act of 'showing'
rather uneasy.

Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance? Aren't they all
beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?


I sooo agree with your comment. I just can;t see how one cat is more
beautiful than the other. If you love animals you love them all, or you
don't love animals. It's simple really.
Oh for goodness sake what a silly thing to say.

I don't like all animals but would class myself as an animal lover. I
don't like spiders and there are some breeds of dog I dislike, but I
still like animals.
Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
*rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
cat's face really upsets me (


Totally, various purebred animals (cats and dogs) have so many
breed-associatted problems that instead of helping them overcome them, those
crazy people keep emphasising and enlarging the issues for the sake of money
and fame of a human! I do wonder sometimes if breeders do LOVE their
animals, or are they in it just for the money.

I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
will never attend such an event again.


Nor me. I am all for equality in all respects for everyone, and this
competition thing (animals , people anything really) is just very pathetic.
There is a place for everyone in this world.

Any breeders care to comment?


I'm not a breeder, God forbid, all of mine have been done as soon as they
walked into my life.

Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy the experience.


I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory. And if that new
territory contains millions of other strange cats, I can just imagine what
exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!

That is called anthropomorphising and not a good thing.

So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
them. However I do like to watch agility shows.

HAve you ever *been* to a cat show Gee?

  #22  
Old April 26th 04, 11:16 PM
good golly Ms Molly
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Kristine Kochanski wrote:



Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
being driven there)

all of my cats will get into the car if they get a chance and enjoy
being taken for a drive. No stress at all.

Some
breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
stared at.

I don't tink you were looking properly at the cats. I think you decided
what they were feeling and made your mind up on that basis.

I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory.

Show cats are very used to the routine and not at all stressed. They
have their own blanket and litter and the owner is nearby.
And if that new
territory contains millions of other strange cats,

Bloody hell what show was this were a million cats were being
exhibited?????
I can just imagine what
exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!

Do not anthropomorphise.
So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
them.


Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...

Happy to oblige :0)

However I do like to watch agility shows.

Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded.

They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it? But you are sure they enjoy it all just like
you are sure the cats don't enjoy it.
That's a totally different thing to
sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
one down the next row.

They get stuck in a sack and beaten into submission, but I'm sure they
enjoy it really.
  #23  
Old April 26th 04, 11:16 PM
good golly Ms Molly
external usenet poster
 
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Kristine Kochanski wrote:



Like Alison said, you get good ones and bad ones. I don't doubt any of
the breeders at the show I visited loved their cats, but I can't
understand how having a cat in a cage for hours (and the stress of
being driven there)

all of my cats will get into the car if they get a chance and enjoy
being taken for a drive. No stress at all.

Some
breeds obviously are more docile and handle the experience better, but
cats in general do not like being trapped in a strange environment and
stared at.

I don't tink you were looking properly at the cats. I think you decided
what they were feeling and made your mind up on that basis.

I can;t see how they would. Cats are territorial animals and feel very
uncomfortable to downright scared on any new territory.

Show cats are very used to the routine and not at all stressed. They
have their own blanket and litter and the owner is nearby.
And if that new
territory contains millions of other strange cats,

Bloody hell what show was this were a million cats were being
exhibited?????
I can just imagine what
exactly poor cat is thinking and feeling, terrified and stressed!

Do not anthropomorphise.
So I fail to understand breed shows as well, and who exactly benefits from
them.


Thanks for your comments! I half expected to be flamed...

Happy to oblige :0)

However I do like to watch agility shows.

Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded.

They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it? But you are sure they enjoy it all just like
you are sure the cats don't enjoy it.
That's a totally different thing to
sticking them in a box and deciding whether they're 'better' than the
one down the next row.

They get stuck in a sack and beaten into submission, but I'm sure they
enjoy it really.
  #24  
Old April 26th 04, 11:39 PM
Kristine Kochanski
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:03:23 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
wrote:

Kristine Kochanski wrote:

Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them

I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
you wanted to see.


Funny, that's exactly what I thought of the people who seemed to
imagine their cats enjoyed the experience.

- and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
prodding them.

Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
judging is done behind closed doors normally?


I saw the cats being judged. Two 'officials' in white coats going
around pulling the cats from the cages holding them up, looking at
their bumholes and yanking their jaws apart. Hmm, that's not scary for
a cat at all is it.

This can't be good for a cat!

Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
emphasise it?


Do you really want me to explain or are just being facetious like the
rest of your post?

Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?

Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
judging follows this in most respects.


Can't decide if that's just patronising or you trying to be sarcastic
and patrionising.

Aren't they all
beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?

A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
*rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
cat's face really upsets me (

So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?


Ditto.

I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
will never attend such an event again.

Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
modern society .


Uh-huh.

Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
psychology - I fail to understand this.

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour.


How wrong you are.

You probably


Please don't make assumptions.

have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.


What a stupid thing to say. What has that got to do with the price of
fish?

And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
near the bars quite calmly and happily.
Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
them no doubt.


Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
a lot there.
  #25  
Old April 26th 04, 11:39 PM
Kristine Kochanski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:03:23 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
wrote:

Kristine Kochanski wrote:

Just wondering what the general consensus was on cat shows? I ask
because I attended one the other day and was quite upset at seeing
distressed, miserable cats kept in 2ft cages for hours, with hundreds
of strangers (me included!) milling around staring and cooing at them

I think you are rather over reacting here. Most of them are quite used
to shows and simply go to sleep in their cages.Perhaps you only saw what
you wanted to see.


Funny, that's exactly what I thought of the people who seemed to
imagine their cats enjoyed the experience.

- and men in white coats pulling them out and poking, stretching and
prodding them.

Judges do not pull,poke and prod ect. How could you have seen this when
judging is done behind closed doors normally?


I saw the cats being judged. Two 'officials' in white coats going
around pulling the cats from the cages holding them up, looking at
their bumholes and yanking their jaws apart. Hmm, that's not scary for
a cat at all is it.

This can't be good for a cat!

Whay do you say this? And why do you use an exclamatian mark to
emphasise it?


Do you really want me to explain or are just being facetious like the
rest of your post?

Firstly, how can you judge a cat on appearance?

Easy, you read and learn the breed standard and see if the cat you are
judging follows this in most respects.


Can't decide if that's just patronising or you trying to be sarcastic
and patrionising.

Aren't they all
beautiful whether they have a certificate that says so or not?

A certificate doesn't say the cat is beautiful, it says that the cat
closely follows the breed standard with respect to physical appearance.
Secondly, should people, in this so-called civilised day and age, be
*rewarded* for inbreeding? For example, the flatness of a Persian
cat's face really upsets me (

So don't buy a persian. What is inbreeding?


Ditto.

I left the show feeling quite bewildered and negative and I'm sure I
will never attend such an event again.

Probably a good thing as you are too delicate to be allowed outside in
modern society .


Uh-huh.

Any breeders care to comment? Dare say they will claim the cats enjoy
the experience. But looking at them and listening to their distressed
mewing - and having a fair understanding of cat behaviour and
psychology - I fail to understand this.

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour.


How wrong you are.

You probably


Please don't make assumptions.

have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.


What a stupid thing to say. What has that got to do with the price of
fish?

And no, I neither breed nor show cats, but have been to several cat
shows because I like cats and have several of them. I didn't see any of
the unhappiness or distress you saw, but then I wasn't trying to read
things into things.Most of the cats I saw were wither asleep in their
cages or purring like crazy and rubbibg their head against any hand put
near the bars quite calmly and happily.
Perhaps it was your po faced presence upsetting the cats? That look of
supercilious disapproval on your face would have scared and unsettled
them no doubt.


Thanks for you highly knowledgable and insightful comments, I learned
a lot there.
  #26  
Old April 26th 04, 11:47 PM
Kristine Kochanski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:16:46 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
wrote:


I don't tink


So it seems.

Oh well. Shame.
  #27  
Old April 26th 04, 11:47 PM
Kristine Kochanski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 23:16:46 +0100, good golly Ms Molly
wrote:


I don't tink


So it seems.

Oh well. Shame.
  #28  
Old April 27th 04, 02:34 PM
kaeli
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In article , oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.


And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to). And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*


Remember, we think declawing is perfectly okay over here. Don't assume
our cat shows are all that wonderful, either.
Also, I'd bet that different shows are different. We have many shows put
on by different clubs. I would bet they are run differently.

The OP could have gone to a big show or a tiny one.
I don't believe (s)he specified. My guess is that the big breed shows in
the big cities run things a lot differently than the small local ones in
a small township.

[YMMV; I've only been to three local shows here in the States and none
in the UK.]


--
--
~kaeli~
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless
interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an
otherwise dull day.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

  #29  
Old April 27th 04, 02:34 PM
kaeli
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.


And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to). And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*


Remember, we think declawing is perfectly okay over here. Don't assume
our cat shows are all that wonderful, either.
Also, I'd bet that different shows are different. We have many shows put
on by different clubs. I would bet they are run differently.

The OP could have gone to a big show or a tiny one.
I don't believe (s)he specified. My guess is that the big breed shows in
the big cities run things a lot differently than the small local ones in
a small township.

[YMMV; I've only been to three local shows here in the States and none
in the UK.]


--
--
~kaeli~
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless
interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an
otherwise dull day.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

  #30  
Old April 27th 04, 02:40 PM
kaeli
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
However I do like to watch agility shows.

Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.


God, I hope you were being sarcastic to try to make some point that was
lost.

Dogs adore agility.
No one forces them. It's all positive training with treats, unless some
neanderthals somewhere are still using force training. I know of no
trainers who still use that for agility.
A dog works best without fear.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded.

They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it?


That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?


--
--
~kaeli~
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from
many is research.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

 




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