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Keeping cat on patio
Nightstar wrote:
Hi - I live in a condo with a fenced patio. The fence is approx. 6 ft. tall and made of wood. I want to be able to allow my cat, Pop, to go outside on the patio but he can climb over the fence. Someone suggested attaching "chicken wire" to the fence so it extends 8 inches above the top of the fence. Supposedly when the cat tries to jump to the top of the fence the flimsy chicken wire will not hold the weight of the cat and he will not be able to go over the fence. Has anyone heard of this or tried it? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! I've seen several solutions on the internet. I'm waiting for the builders to come this week and enclose my garden like the one in this website http://www.mainecoonguild.org.uk/Gar...en_safety.html Type in cat and fencing in Google and you should get a lot of sites. pcb |
I've thought of screening over the top. It would work except when I
have guests over 6 feet tall, then they couldn't walk upright on the patio. :-) (k) wrote in message . com... Unreliable "method" and the cat could be injured. Why not screen over the top completely... (Nightstar) wrote in message . com... Hi - I live in a condo with a fenced patio. The fence is approx. 6 ft. tall and made of wood. I want to be able to allow my cat, Pop, to go outside on the patio but he can climb over the fence. Someone suggested attaching "chicken wire" to the fence so it extends 8 inches above the top of the fence. Supposedly when the cat tries to jump to the top of the fence the flimsy chicken wire will not hold the weight of the cat and he will not be able to go over the fence. Has anyone heard of this or tried it? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! |
Keeping a cat indoors or restricting their access outside is not cruel
anymore then restricting a young child's access outside is cruel. Cats and young children both need to be protected from possible forces that might be of harm to them. Someone who allows their children to roam freely usually end up with dead or missing children and have them taken away. Bob Brenchley. wrote in message ... On 13 Jul 2003 06:19:46 -0700, (Nightstar) wrote: Hi - I live in a condo with a fenced patio. The fence is approx. 6 ft. tall and made of wood. I want to be able to allow my cat, Pop, to go outside on the patio but he can climb over the fence. Someone suggested attaching "chicken wire" to the fence so it extends 8 inches above the top of the fence. Supposedly when the cat tries to jump to the top of the fence the flimsy chicken wire will not hold the weight of the cat and he will not be able to go over the fence. Has anyone heard of this or tried it? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. -- Bob. Cat's motto: No matter what you've done wrong, always try to make it look like the dog did it. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- |
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:10:20 -0700, "Mogie"
wrote: Bob Brenchley. wrote in message .. . On 13 Jul 2003 06:19:46 -0700, (Nightstar) wrote: Hi - I live in a condo with a fenced patio. The fence is approx. 6 ft. tall and made of wood. I want to be able to allow my cat, Pop, to go outside on the patio but he can climb over the fence. Someone suggested attaching "chicken wire" to the fence so it extends 8 inches above the top of the fence. Supposedly when the cat tries to jump to the top of the fence the flimsy chicken wire will not hold the weight of the cat and he will not be able to go over the fence. Has anyone heard of this or tried it? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make the same mistake again. Keeping a cat indoors or restricting their access outside is not cruel anymore then restricting a young child's access outside is cruel. Cats and young children both need to be protected from possible forces that might be of harm to them. Someone who allows their children to roam freely usually end up with dead or missing children and have them taken away. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. Cats are NOT children an should not be treated as such. But believe me, if you constantly kept your child indoors only you would be the one looking at having it taken away. -- Bob. Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt). |
As I've mentioned on alt.cats, I think it's important to do what you can to
make sure your cat has as much outside access as safely possible (whether in a run, on a harness, or whatever), and I'd want to give my cats as much opportunity to roam as possible. But I've had both indoor and outdoor cats, and I don't think having a cat who's completely indoors is necessarily cruel or selfish, particularly if the owner does their best to keep the cat occupied, give it things to climb on, and what have you. Like I said in the other group, there are a lot of strays in cities, and to say they're better off on the streets where they could catch anything, get hit by cars, shot, or whatever else, than indoors well-fed and cared for, with lots of toys and attention, well, I don't think that's cruel. Yes, cats are generally outdoor animals. But they've become domesticated, and can't fend for themselves against certain dangers; even the well-defended tiger is being threatened by humankind. Yes, you should always do what you can to provide the opportunity for a cat to roam safely. But safety is the issue first and foremost, and I think giving a cat a loving home when needed, even in an area where it would be unsafe to let it roam, is anything but selfish. I realize how strongly you feel about this, so I'm sure you'll disagree, but having had cats who ended up with diseases, being shot, bitten, and other problems, I feel it's just as cruel to let a cat roam in a dangerous area as it is to keep one indoors that doesn't want to be. And again, to say you just shouldn't own one in areas like that when there are so many that need looking after just doesn't seem any less heartless to me. I honestly think it depends on the personality of the cat, and the individual situation. As I wrote to someone with the same opinion in alt.cats: "I really do see your point, and I think it's a good one. I think we both agree that the welfare and happiness of the cat has to come first. And if your cat is truly miserable indoors, then it's up to you to find ways to keep him or her occupied. And ideally, if you live in a area that's unsafe for free roaming, you'd either do something like the outdoor run, or teach kitty to walk on a harness and make sure he or she gets plenty of supervised outdoor time to keep them happy. The thing is, if you truly love your cat, you'll realize these things and do whatever it takes to see that they stay happy. If you really are a cruel and unkind person, then nothing you or I say would convince anyone of anything anyway." Agreeing to Disagree, Ann |
"Bob Brenchley." wrote in message
... I do not let young kittens roam, but like children they grow and develop a life of their own. By the time a cat is adult I would certainly not put any restrictions on its movements, just as I would not expect to restrict my children now they are grown. There are some parallels to cat and child rearing, but unlike with grown children, you can't teach cats street safety or stranger danger, and make them aware of all the risks of an outdoor life in the city. I get the impression from your posts that you believe that domestic cats should be treated relative to their wild cousins, and to some extent, as with the feeding, I can certainly see your point. But wild cats, unlike their domestic brethren, generally don't have to face the dangers of a city or other highly populated area. And it's just not realistic to say people in those areas shouldn't own cats, because as I said, there are far too many cats in those areas in need of a good home. Ann |
Restricting outside access is not cruel. When children are outside (young
children) keep an eye on them. Same for cats they need to be protected. Bob do you let young children roam? Bob Brenchley. wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:10:20 -0700, "Mogie" wrote: Bob Brenchley. wrote in message .. . On 13 Jul 2003 06:19:46 -0700, (Nightstar) wrote: Hi - I live in a condo with a fenced patio. The fence is approx. 6 ft. tall and made of wood. I want to be able to allow my cat, Pop, to go outside on the patio but he can climb over the fence. Someone suggested attaching "chicken wire" to the fence so it extends 8 inches above the top of the fence. Supposedly when the cat tries to jump to the top of the fence the flimsy chicken wire will not hold the weight of the cat and he will not be able to go over the fence. Has anyone heard of this or tried it? Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance! Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make the same mistake again. Keeping a cat indoors or restricting their access outside is not cruel anymore then restricting a young child's access outside is cruel. Cats and young children both need to be protected from possible forces that might be of harm to them. Someone who allows their children to roam freely usually end up with dead or missing children and have them taken away. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. Cats are NOT children an should not be treated as such. But believe me, if you constantly kept your child indoors only you would be the one looking at having it taken away. -- Bob. Your IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to grunt). -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- |
In article ,
Bob Brenchley. wrote: Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. I'm new to rec.pets.cats and a new cat owner. I was surprised by this vehement claim. Is this just your personal opinion, or are you an expert such as a vet? What organisations or studies support your claim? I obtained my two cats from the Cat Protection Society of NSW, who run a no-kill shelter in Newtown, Sydney. The CPS included with their paperwork a fact sheet called "Cats Living Indoors" which states, "More and more people are keeping their cats indoors because they realise that there are benefits not just for cats and themselves, but also for the environment. Cats can live indoors very happily but it's vital... to make the cat's environment as interesting and fun as possible." The fact sheet goes on to outline outdoor hazards for cats, including traffic, other animals, disease, parasites, and poisoning. It explains how to "help your cat become a contented indoor cat" through desexing and cleanliness and providing a secure place to hide, toys, greens, a play centre, high spots to sit, and so on. They suggest having two cats to entertain each other while the owner's at work. I don't speak for the CPS, but it's obviously their view that not only is keeping a cat indoors safer, it's certainly not cruel as long as it's done with appropriate care. Rather than letting them roam freely, my plan is to take my two boys out with a harness and leash, so they can have a good sniff round the backyard; this has worked very well for my brother and sisters' kittens. Eventually I hope to get the boys a cat enclosure so they can play unsupervised. I've known too many cats who were allowed to "roam" and never came home. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I have no idea what that meant." - Dot Warner |
wrote in message ... | In article , | Bob Brenchley. wrote: | | Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever | reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for | at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then | don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in | 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. | | I'm new to rec.pets.cats and a new cat owner. I was surprised by this | vehement claim. Is this just your personal opinion, or are you an expert | such as a vet? What organisations or studies support your claim? | | Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ | "I have no idea what that meant." - Dot Warner Hi Kate, Don't be too surprised or upset by anything that Bob writes. He has been here for years and has always written the same garbage. He has them saved so he doesn't have to rewrite his rubbish every time he wants to say the same thing. Killfile him like everyone else has. There is nothing at all wrong with keeping cats strictly indoors. I have always done that and my cats live to ripe old ages and die very happy kitties. They are well loved and cared for. What they are not is a nuisance to my neighbours. You do what you think is best for your kitties and don't consider other people's opinions too much. As long as your cats are loved, cared for and happy, that's all that matters. -- Hugs, Lynn *strip CLOTHES to reply* Homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/sewfinefashions/ See my boys: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/papavince_29/ |
"L. Kelly" wrote in message
. ca... Hi Kate, Don't be too surprised or upset by anything that Bob writes. He has been here for years and has always written the same garbage. He has them saved so he doesn't have to rewrite his rubbish every time he wants to say the same thing. Killfile him like everyone else has. There is nothing at all wrong with keeping cats strictly indoors. I have always done that and my cats live to ripe old ages and die very happy kitties. They are well loved and cared for. What they are not is a nuisance to my neighbours. You do what you think is best for your kitties and don't consider other people's opinions too much. As long as your cats are loved, cared for and happy, that's all that matters. -- Hugs, Lynn well said Lynn :-) |
"Mogie" wrote in message
... I learned a little while ago to ignore Bob. His lights are on but nobody is home. He certainly sounds intelligent enough, but when he makes blanket statements like, "People who keep indoor cats are selfish or cruel," when many people with indoor cats are completely devoted to their pets (I agree that cats are naturally outdoor creatures, but am open-minded enough to accept that there are circumstances in which it's better to keep them indoors, and can be done to the cat's satisfaction), "People only have problems with lactose intolerance when they haven't had milk in awhile," (what about the fact that we, like cats, don't have the proper digestive enzymes for cow's milk?), or "The only threat to wild cats from humans is the depletion of their habitat," (how about hunting?), it's hard to take anything the man says seriously, because he's clearly too enamoured of his own intelligence to consider that anyone else might have any opinions or knowledge of value. Ann |
I learned a little while ago to ignore Bob. His lights are on but nobody is
home. *~*SooZy*~* wrote in message ... "L. Kelly" wrote in message . ca... Hi Kate, Don't be too surprised or upset by anything that Bob writes. He has been here for years and has always written the same garbage. He has them saved so he doesn't have to rewrite his rubbish every time he wants to say the same thing. Killfile him like everyone else has. There is nothing at all wrong with keeping cats strictly indoors. I have always done that and my cats live to ripe old ages and die very happy kitties. They are well loved and cared for. What they are not is a nuisance to my neighbours. You do what you think is best for your kitties and don't consider other people's opinions too much. As long as your cats are loved, cared for and happy, that's all that matters. -- Hugs, Lynn well said Lynn :-) -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- |
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On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:50:53 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote: "Mogie" wrote in message ... I learned a little while ago to ignore Bob. His lights are on but nobody is home. He certainly sounds intelligent enough, but when he makes blanket statements like, "People who keep indoor cats are selfish or cruel," when many people with indoor cats are completely devoted to their pets (I agree that cats are naturally outdoor creatures, but am open-minded enough to accept that there are circumstances in which it's better to keep them indoors, There are, indeed, a few. There are some cats where health problems or disability means that they have to be kept indoors. I know one cat that has less than 10% vision who is normally kept indoors because her owner lives near a main road, but even she gets to roam freely at least once a week when he takes her over to his sister's house which has large fields at the back. and can be done to the cat's satisfaction), "People only have problems with lactose intolerance when they haven't had milk in awhile," (what about the fact that we, like cats, don't have the proper digestive enzymes for cow's milk?), Our digestive system is not perfect for any one food. Enzymes for dealing with cows milk are in our bodies and our environment, but if we do not drink milk for long periods then they die down to a low level. Start having milk in very small amount, gradually taking more, and most people have no problem at all. In the UK most people continue drinking milk, if only in tea or on cereals, throughout their lives. In countries where milk does not form part of the usual diet you will see far more lactose intolerance. or "The only threat to wild cats from humans is the depletion of their habitat," (how about hunting?), There is VERY little hunting of wild cats. it's hard to take anything the man says seriously, because he's clearly too enamoured of his own intelligence to consider that anyone else might have any opinions or knowledge of value. All I can give are the facts. Ann -- Bob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. |
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"Moron Brenchley." stupidly and without forethought
wrote in message ... | | | | Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever | | reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for | | at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then | | don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in | | 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. | | | | I'm new to rec.pets.cats and a new cat owner. I was surprised by this | | vehement claim. Is this just your personal opinion, or are you an expert | | such as a vet? What organisations or studies support your claim? | | | | Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ | | "I have no idea what that meant." - Dot Warner | | Hi Kate, | | Don't be too surprised or upset by anything that Bob writes. He has been here for years | and has always written the same garbage. He has them saved so he doesn't have to rewrite | his rubbish every time he wants to say the same thing. Killfile him like everyone else | has. | | There is nothing at all wrong with keeping cats strictly indoors. I have always done that | and my cats live to ripe old ages and die very happy kitties. They are well loved and | cared for. What they are not is a nuisance to my neighbours. | | You do what you think is best for your kitties and don't consider other people's opinions | too much. As long as your cats are loved, cared for and happy, that's all that matters. | | Funny how that cat abusers like myself always come out of the wordwork at times | like this. | | -- | Bob. | | My IQ score is 2 (it takes 3 to know when I need to go to the bathroom). If you find the 3 IQ point, Bob, then go and spew your rubbish in the toilet where it belongs. I live on a highway, with over 10,000 vehicles a day going through, absolutely no yard, and near a rural area full of coyotes and wild dogs (one of which I have seen near my home). If protecting my cats from those dangers makes me "cruel, selfish, or both" (to quote your words), then I guess I would have to say that you are the one who is abusive. Anyone who WOULD subject their so-called "loved pets" to these dangers is, indeed, extremely cruel, selfish, stupid and abusive. You have made it very obvious to all here that you have no love for your animals at all, so please keep your mental garbage from spilling over into everyone's inbox. |
"bewtifulfreak" wrote in message ... | | Ah, but Bob believes that you just shouldn't have a cat if you live in an | area like that. And as far as strays in those areas? I guess we're | supposed to accept that a feral life full of disease, fighting and possibly | starving or being eaten is a more 'natural' life for a cat, and therefore it | will somehow be happier than if it were being kept indoors, fed, played | with, and tended to. Myself, I find that awfully difficult to accept. I so | wish the cats could have a (verbal) say in all this!!! | | Ann | (who does let her cats outdoors, but only because it's safe to do so) | | The one cat that I have is now over 8 years old. I moved here in March. Does my moving here mean that I'm supposed to "disown" or "abandon" my cat to a new slave???????.....and just to please a self-serving ass like Bob?!?!? :-O I could never!!!!!! -- Lynn |
If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to
allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Sir- Where do you live? You don't have any cat haters for neighbors? Or perhaps you don't *know* you do? You know, the ones who are nice to your face, but secretly put antifreeze in a dish next to the garbage can that your cat rummages in, because he is throwing trash across their patio? Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, because the cat digs up his garden? Or the person who just hates cats because they are 'cats' and knowing swerves to HIT instead of swerving to miss, as kitty crosses the road? Are you aware that cats are the most frequently tortured of all domestic animals? So there is no traffic where you live? No cases of feline AIDS? No fleas or mosquitoes carrying worms or other blood-borne disease or parasite? Let me know where this Cat Utopia exists, because I'd love to live there. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. Call me an 'abuser' all you like. This baby isn't going any where near the outdoors. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. I am responsible for the behaviour of my kitties, as well as my dog, and NONE of them are allowed off the property. They can go outside on leashes, or attended if they obey me and stay in the yard (as my "son" did). They will soon have an area that is 'enclosed' keeping them safely away from any predators, especially the humans predators, of the ignorant and violent persuasion, yet allowing them access to the grass, and sights and smells of outdoors. I am not going to turn this little darling outside, to find her headless body on my doorstep as part of some nasty neighbor feud, simply because I wouldn't allow their dog to live at my house, eating my shoes and chewing up my garden hose. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. Sorry, I have to go "abuse" my babies, it is time for their nightly snack of cream and/or tuna, and they have all taken turn to come remind me. :) They certainly have me very well trained. D. PS-The door was opened to let the dog 'do her business' for the night. All of the cats ran in the opposite direction as I held open the door, though I made no effort to stop them going onto the porch. The dog went out long enough to accomplish what she had to, then promptly sat at the door until I opened the screen for her to come in. I am thinking they'd all rather be in this comfy A/C, lounging on comfy furniture, and licking the tuna from their chins, than 'roaming'...... |
In article ,
Bob Brenchley. wrote: On 29 Jul 2003 15:36:41 +1000, wrote: Cats are NOT cage animals. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. I'm new to rec.pets.cats and a new cat owner. I was surprised by this vehement claim. Is this just your personal opinion, or are you an expert such as a vet? What organisations or studies support your claim? I'm a cat person of over 40 years standing. Don't your feet hurt? Took Frank for his first spacewalk today. My suspicion that the big chunky guy is, in fact, a dog were increased when the only harness that would fit him was a small dog harness. He was very good and patient about the harness, and excited to be outside; he was a bit puzzled that I was always two feet behind him. :-) It was all a bit much after five minutes, so he hastened back indoors. Interestingly, I think he was tracking himself; a few nights ago he made an unauthorised exit by knocking out a flyscreen, only to come straight back to the front door and meow until he woke us up. He knows where his food bowl is. :-) Anyway, further harness practice and outdoor adventures to come. Kate Orman http://www.zip.com.au/~korman/ "I have no idea what that meant." - Dot Warner |
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:38:18 GMT, "L. Kelly"
wrote: If you find the 3 IQ point, Bob, then go and spew your rubbish in the toilet where it belongs. I live on a highway, with over 10,000 vehicles a day going through, absolutely no yard, and near a rural area full of coyotes and wild dogs (one of which I have seen near my home). If protecting my cats from those dangers makes me "cruel, selfish, or both" (to quote your words), then I guess I would have to say that you are the one who is abusive. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Anyone who WOULD subject their so-called "loved pets" to these dangers is, indeed, extremely cruel, selfish, stupid and abusive. You have made it very obvious to all here that you have no love for your animals at all, so please keep your mental garbage from spilling over into everyone's inbox. -- Bob. Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege. |
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:42:18 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote: "L. Kelly" wrote in message .ca... I live on a highway, with over 10,000 vehicles a day going through, absolutely no yard, and near a rural area full of coyotes and wild dogs (one of which I have seen near my home). If protecting my cats from those dangers makes me "cruel, selfish, or both" (to quote your words), then I guess I would have to say that you are the one who is abusive. Anyone who WOULD subject their so-called "loved pets" to these dangers is, indeed, extremely cruel, selfish, stupid and abusive. Ah, but Bob believes that you just shouldn't have a cat if you live in an area like that. I believe she shouldn't have a cat, most true cat lovers would agree. And as far as strays in those areas? I guess we're supposed to accept that a feral life full of disease, fighting and possibly starving or being eaten is a more 'natural' life for a cat, and therefore it will somehow be happier than if it were being kept indoors, fed, played with, and tended to. Myself, I find that awfully difficult to accept. I so wish the cats could have a (verbal) say in all this!!! Ann (who does let her cats outdoors, but only because it's safe to do so) You have a choice. Have a cat who is allowed out for at least some time during the average day, or don't have a cat. It really is as simple as that. -- Bob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. |
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:17:21 -0500, "DeAnna"
wrote: If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Sir- Where do you live? You don't have any cat haters for neighbors? No. There may be the odd one who doesn't like cats very much, but that would make them odd now wouldn't it? Or perhaps you don't *know* you do? You know, the ones who are nice to your face, but secretly put antifreeze in a dish next to the garbage can that your cat rummages in, because he is throwing trash across their patio? You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, Heard of that happening - guy got a very heavy fine and was soon forced to move as a result of the hate campaign he earnt himself. because the cat digs up his garden? Or the person who just hates cats because they are 'cats' and knowing swerves to HIT instead of swerving to miss, as kitty crosses the road? Sure, and then he gets done for hitting the parked cars :) Are you aware that cats are the most frequently tortured of all domestic animals? Nope. Are you aware how infrequent any animal torture really is? So there is no traffic where you live? Lots. No cases of feline AIDS? Not many. No fleas Lots of those, but then humans bring them indoors on their clothes as well. or mosquitoes Nope. carrying worms or other blood-borne disease or parasite? Let me know where this Cat Utopia exists, because I'd love to live there. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, Something I would have reported to the police. because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. That is how it should be. Cats represent no danger to humans - dogs do. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. As I said, such threats would be reported to the police. Call me an 'abuser' all you like. This baby isn't going any where near the outdoors. The you are not just an abuser - but a very sick one. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. You would, but your lack of understanding of a cats needs makes your an appallingly bad cat owner. I am responsible for the behaviour of my kitties, as well as my dog, and NONE of them are allowed off the property. They can go outside on leashes, or attended if they obey me and stay in the yard (as my "son" did). They will soon have an area that is 'enclosed' keeping them safely away from any predators, especially the humans predators, of the ignorant and violent persuasion, yet allowing them access to the grass, and sights and smells of outdoors. Your animal abusing sickness seems to be very deep rooted. Maybe you should seek treatment for your mental problems. I am not going to turn this little darling outside, to find her headless body on my doorstep as part of some nasty neighbor feud, simply because I wouldn't allow their dog to live at my house, eating my shoes and chewing up my garden hose. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. Sorry, I have to go "abuse" my babies, it is time for their nightly snack of cream and/or tuna, and they have all taken turn to come remind me. :) They certainly have me very well trained. You really are sick. D. PS-The door was opened to let the dog 'do her business' for the night. All of the cats ran in the opposite direction as I held open the door, though I made no effort to stop them going onto the porch. The dog went out long enough to accomplish what she had to, then promptly sat at the door until I opened the screen for her to come in. I am thinking they'd all rather be in this comfy A/C, lounging on comfy furniture, and licking the tuna from their chins, than 'roaming'...... -- Bob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. |
"Bob Brenchley." wrote in message
... You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". Not everyone in this group lives in the EU, Bob. Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, Heard of that happening - guy got a very heavy fine and was soon forced to move as a result of the hate campaign he earnt himself. Our cat was shot by a pellet gun, and ultimately had to be put to sleep. We have no idea who did it, so (s)he gets away with it scot-free, while the cat is now dead. We reported it to the police, for all the good it did; our cat was considered 'property', not a living thing. And I *do* live in UK. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, Something I would have reported to the police. Police generally say they can't do anything about someone who is threatening *you* unless they do something, so I don't think they'd do a whole lot about someone threatening your cat until it was too late. because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. That is how it should be. Cats represent no danger to humans - dogs do. No, but cats can do damage to property or gardens, not to mention birds, and thus, many people are very resentful of free-roaming cats either for the damage to their garden or because they're bird lovers or both, and some will actually go to great lengths to keep cats out of their yards, including doing things to harm the cat. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. As I said, such threats would be reported to the police. And as I said, to no result whatsoever. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. You would, but your lack of understanding of a cats needs makes your an appallingly bad cat owner. You say all true cat lovers and animal societies feel the way you do, but any research on the 'Net or with various animal societies will prove that there are many others who support the completely opposite view. You may feel they're wrong, but a great many people feel you're wrong as well. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. This is true. Bob says cats are only domesticated in that we've gotten them to live with us, but the fact is, they've lost many of their natural protections and instincts, and cannot be treated like true wild cats. Despite how little Bob says it happens, wild cats are becoming extinct not only because we're encroaching on their habitat, but, because this is happening, they are coming into human habitats for food, and thus, being shot. If this is happening to big wild cats, what hope do small domestic cats have in protecting themselves against the dangers of city life? It's all well and good to address life in the EU, particularly in UK, but many people in this group are from cities in the US, and could well chose not to own cats, but there would then be that many more feral cats living a not very satisfying life in the outdoors, of sickness, attacks, and possibly death, either by people wanting to rid themselves of the population (see Kaeli's site for a tragic story about an entire feral population wiped out by some idiot(s) with a 22.), or by cars, or some other horrible accident befalling them. You're well entitled to your opinion, Bob, but that opinion doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks on this newsgroup. I'm sure that most of the indoor cats owned by people here, even if not as happy as you believe they could be, are not suffering unduly; indoor owners may be 'sick' in your opinion, but are not blind, and would be able to see if their cat was sulking around unhappily. And I truly believe that anyone on this group who saw their cat in that state *would*, indeed, find another home for it. I know I'm wasting my breath, because you will probably just cut and paste your pat line in response, or contradict everything I've said, but I just felt the need to have my say. I won't continue banging my head against this brick wall much longer, though, because that kind of behavior truly *is* sick.... Ann |
One last point on the indoor-outdoor debate: there aren't enough homes for
stray cats as it is, so if you eliminate cat lovers who live in certain areas from having cats, there will just be that many more cats wandering homeless, and ill-equipped for it. I believe a cat suffers far more living a feral life than it does living an indoor life with a loving caretaker-companion, though, again, I realize you, Bob, will disagree. Ann |
One last point on the indoor-outdoor debate: there aren't enough homes for
all the stray cats as it is, so if you eliminate cat lovers who live in certain areas from having cats, there will just be that many more cats wandering homeless, and ill-equipped for it. I believe a cat suffers far more living a feral life than it does living an indoor life with a loving caretaker-companion, though, again, I realize you, Bob, will disagree. Ann |
One last point on the indoor-outdoor debate: there aren't enough homes for
all the stray cats as it is, so if you eliminate cat lovers who live in certain areas from having cats, there will just be that many more cats wandering homeless, and ill-equipped for it. I believe a cat suffers far more living a feral life than it does living an indoor life with a loving caretaker-companion, though, again, I realize you, Bob, will disagree. Ann |
Okay, make that *two* last points (darn computer!)....oh, well, I think it
was a point worth making twice. ;) "bewtifulfreak" wrote in message ... One last point on the indoor-outdoor debate: there aren't enough homes for all the stray cats as it is, so if you eliminate cat lovers who live in certain areas from having cats, there will just be that many more cats wandering homeless, and ill-equipped for it. I believe a cat suffers far more living a feral life than it does living an indoor life with a loving caretaker-companion, though, again, I realize you, Bob, will disagree. Ann |
"bewtifulfreak" wrote in message
... Okay, make that *two* last points (darn computer!)....oh, well, I think it was a point worth making twice. ;) Make that *three*....don't know how many more are going to show up, but I apologize in advance....if I keep replying to every one, we'll never see the end of them, LOL! Ann (feeling sheepish, and sure to hear from Bob about my "moronic posting techniques"!) :p |
"Mogie" wrote in message
... I wanted you to know bewtifulfreak that I really appreciate your common sense. Trying to carry on a intelligent conversation with Bob is not possible. But thanks for trying! Thank you, Mogie, that means a lot to me. :) I realized that right from the start, and intend to stop trying. I usually do okay at ignoring people like that - and plonking him will make it that much easier - but when people can't disagree without making personal attacks, it just seems to bring out the avenging angel in me, LOL! But clearly, Bob is not into common sense, and nothing I can say will stop him making his unmitigated judgements about the allegedy sickness, selfishness, or cruelty of all you wonderful folks in the group. Like Dear Abby (or was it Ann Landers?) once said, trying to reason with an alcoholic is like trying to blow out a lightbulb, and trying to discuss anything with Bob is exactly the same! Ann (resisting the temptation to read what Bob has to say in response to her last post, and plonking him right now for her own peace of mind) |
| I wanted you to know bewtifulfreak that I really appreciate your common
| sense. Trying to carry on a intelligent conversation with Bob is not | possible. But thanks for trying! | | Thank you, Mogie, that means a lot to me. :) I realized that right from the | start, and intend to stop trying. I usually do okay at ignoring people like | that - and plonking him will make it that much easier - but when people | can't disagree without making personal attacks, it just seems to bring out | the avenging angel in me, LOL! But clearly, Bob is not into common sense, | and nothing I can say will stop him making his unmitigated judgements about | the allegedy sickness, selfishness, or cruelty of all you wonderful folks in | the group. Like Dear Abby (or was it Ann Landers?) once said, trying to | reason with an alcoholic is like trying to blow out a lightbulb, and trying | to discuss anything with Bob is exactly the same! | | Ann As a further note in trying to reason with Bob.....I read a quote today that I think fits him perfectly and thought that I would share it will all who are interested. "How much easier it is to be critical, than to be correct." ... Benjamin Disraeli In the debate on whether or not to keep a cat strictly indoors, or let it have some outdoor freedom, there really is no "right" or "wrong." I feel that the cats will let the slaves know if they are unhappy. As long as the cats are fed, loved, happy and healthy, the slave should have the right to chose what is "good" for their cat. In rural areas, with fewer dangers...let your cats have some freedom. In the city, wrought with every kind of evil you can imagine, use your best judgement...and let your kitties always be your guides in what that decision is. -- Hugs, Lynn *strip CLOTHES to reply* Homepage: http://members.shaw.ca/sewfinefashions/ See my boys: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/papavince_29/ |
Mr. Brenchley-
Have you no better manners than to hurl unfounded insults at those who disagree with your personal opinion? Shame on you. I do not believe for one moment that you can sit on your self-righteous high horse and sanctimoniously claim that you have no "cat haters" in the UK or Northern Ireland. You've folks there that kill other humans for their difference in religious beliefs. And you expect me to believe that no one becomes enraged over the destruction of their property? Oft times, it is not a hatred of the animal, but a resentment of the inconsiderate neighbor who'd let them run amok, defacing things that do not belong to them, that spurs the retaliatory behaviour, which is then taken out upon the unsuspecting, trusting pet. It is a matter of personal responsibility, and not only cats, but dogs, and any other pets or livestock, and even extended to children, that are bound by this code of civility. You don't break or destroy, or allow to be broken or destroyed, that which you do not own. Anything less is vandalism, and the owner has every right to want retribution. Some owners however, take less than legal forms of retribution, and the end victim ends up being the poor trusting creature. As for the antifreeze in EU, it is wonderful that you have only the non-toxic form. However, I am sure you folks have rat poison. That is how Aja, my mother's beloved Persian died. D-con mixed with canned cat food. The neighbors were upset that the cat used their prize winning garden as a litter box. As it could not be proved, there was nothing we could do, and it wouldn't have mattered. The kitty was dead, and no matter of finger pointing or even criminal conviction would have brought him back. You say "Not many" cases of Feline Aids? Watch one of your babies waste slowly away, slowly dying before your helpless hands, and say "How many?" is too many. To me, ONE is too many. A generic "not many" doesn't cut it. I don't enjoy seeing any animal die in my arms. As for the neighbors making threats, you can report 'such threats' to police (I reported them to animal control when I posted the cat as "found"-here you must post an animal as found for three days, and when the 'owner' fails to come to the pound looking for them, they belong to you). However, you can't prosecute someone for what they *might* do. *IF* they carry through, and *BIG IF* they can *PROVE* they did it, THEN AND ONLY THEN, will they be held responsible. But is it better to prevent the misdeed, than to attempt to gain recompense after the fact? Would you allow your child to be murdered so you could prosecute the guilty party? If you think animal torture to be infrequent, you must either by someone who doesn't watch the news, or someone who is delusional. And the frequency is of no matter to the victim's family. It only takes that once, to drive a stake of pain through their heart. The fact that it hasn't happened often is of no consolation to those who lost a loved one. I hope my "deep rooted" "sickness" and "abuse" of protecting and nurturing my animals with the same care and tenderness that I show my human offspring spreads to every human. I have had very few cats that ever desired to be outdoors. Even when THEY are given the choice, they prefer to be indoors. Perhaps they know more than any of us give them credit for. Those who truly love their animals would literally lay down their lives for them, and would never intentionally put them in harms way. That includes in the path of a moving car, an angry neighbor, or a disease infested wild animal, that picks a fight out of the need to survive. No animal in my care will come to any harm at all, if I can at all help it. They are all very healthy, happy, and loving, and that speaks volumes more truth, than any opinion typed in ignorance. If you truly believe in all that you put in your posts, I feel very sorry for you, and for the animals in your care. You must be a bitter, miserable person to be so hateful, and contemptuous in the way you treat other people, and it makes me wonder how that translates to how you treat those poor creatures who are in your care. D. "Bob Brenchley." wrote in message ... On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:17:21 -0500, "DeAnna" wrote: If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Sir- Where do you live? You don't have any cat haters for neighbors? No. There may be the odd one who doesn't like cats very much, but that would make them odd now wouldn't it? Or perhaps you don't *know* you do? You know, the ones who are nice to your face, but secretly put antifreeze in a dish next to the garbage can that your cat rummages in, because he is throwing trash across their patio? You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, Heard of that happening - guy got a very heavy fine and was soon forced to move as a result of the hate campaign he earnt himself. because the cat digs up his garden? Or the person who just hates cats because they are 'cats' and knowing swerves to HIT instead of swerving to miss, as kitty crosses the road? Sure, and then he gets done for hitting the parked cars :) Are you aware that cats are the most frequently tortured of all domestic animals? Nope. Are you aware how infrequent any animal torture really is? So there is no traffic where you live? Lots. No cases of feline AIDS? Not many. No fleas Lots of those, but then humans bring them indoors on their clothes as well. or mosquitoes Nope. carrying worms or other blood-borne disease or parasite? Let me know where this Cat Utopia exists, because I'd love to live there. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, Something I would have reported to the police. because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. That is how it should be. Cats represent no danger to humans - dogs do. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. As I said, such threats would be reported to the police. Call me an 'abuser' all you like. This baby isn't going any where near the outdoors. The you are not just an abuser - but a very sick one. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. You would, but your lack of understanding of a cats needs makes your an appallingly bad cat owner. I am responsible for the behaviour of my kitties, as well as my dog, and NONE of them are allowed off the property. They can go outside on leashes, or attended if they obey me and stay in the yard (as my "son" did). They will soon have an area that is 'enclosed' keeping them safely away from any predators, especially the humans predators, of the ignorant and violent persuasion, yet allowing them access to the grass, and sights and smells of outdoors. Your animal abusing sickness seems to be very deep rooted. Maybe you should seek treatment for your mental problems. I am not going to turn this little darling outside, to find her headless body on my doorstep as part of some nasty neighbor feud, simply because I wouldn't allow their dog to live at my house, eating my shoes and chewing up my garden hose. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. Sorry, I have to go "abuse" my babies, it is time for their nightly snack of cream and/or tuna, and they have all taken turn to come remind me. :) They certainly have me very well trained. You really are sick. D. PS-The door was opened to let the dog 'do her business' for the night. All of the cats ran in the opposite direction as I held open the door, though I made no effort to stop them going onto the porch. The dog went out long enough to accomplish what she had to, then promptly sat at the door until I opened the screen for her to come in. I am thinking they'd all rather be in this comfy A/C, lounging on comfy furniture, and licking the tuna from their chins, than 'roaming'...... -- Bob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. |
In article ,
Bob Brenchley. wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:36:23 GMT, "L. Kelly" wrote: "bewtifulfreak" wrote in message ... | | Ah, but Bob believes that you just shouldn't have a cat if you live in an | area like that. And as far as strays in those areas? I guess we're | supposed to accept that a feral life full of disease, fighting and | possibly | starving or being eaten is a more 'natural' life for a cat, and therefore | it | will somehow be happier than if it were being kept indoors, fed, played | with, and tended to. Myself, I find that awfully difficult to accept. I | so | wish the cats could have a (verbal) say in all this!!! | | Ann | (who does let her cats outdoors, but only because it's safe to do so) | | The one cat that I have is now over 8 years old. I moved here in March. Does my moving here mean that I'm supposed to "disown" or "abandon" my cat to a new slave???????. If you are stupid or selfish enough to move to a home unsuitable for the cat - yet. ....and just to please a self-serving ass like Bob?!?!? What does a donkey have to do with it? :-O I could never!!!!!! I've taken on two cats in the past few years because their owners were forced to move to a home unsuitable for a cat. One, Penny, stayed two years until her old owners were able to find a home in a safer area. The other, Floss, had an owner that was going into residential care, I had her for two months while we found someone in the area who was happy to take her on. As she was an older cat (9 or 10 if I recall) I wanted a home close to where she was used to roaming. I still see her every now and again, at 16+ she is still doing well. A lady who lives in our neighborhood as built a "cat run" -- basically she has encased her entire backyard in fencing with a sort of fencing "roof" so that the cats can be outside but can't leave the yard. It took her *forever* I'm sure, but her cats are completely safe from cars and predators. |
"L. Kelly" wrote in message
. ca... As a further note in trying to reason with Bob.....I read a quote today that I think fits him perfectly and thought that I would share it will all who are interested. "How much easier it is to be critical, than to be correct." ... Benjamin Disraeli How very appropriate. :) In the debate on whether or not to keep a cat strictly indoors, or let it have some outdoor freedom, there really is no "right" or "wrong." I feel that the cats will let the slaves know if they are unhappy. As long as the cats are fed, loved, happy and healthy, the slave should have the right to chose what is "good" for their cat. In rural areas, with fewer dangers...let your cats have some freedom. In the city, wrought with every kind of evil you can imagine, use your best judgement...and let your kitties always be your guides in what that decision is. This reflects my outlook on the issue to a tee, well said. Obviously, if a cat has been an outdoor cat, and is then rehomed, it should ideally be rehomed to someplace it can still wander. If a cat is going to be indoor only, it should really be done right from the get-go (or as soon as possible, where feral kittens are concerned). That said, there are always exceptions and individual situations; my Simba used to always sneak out of my apartment, and now lives with my mom in her apartment complex where cats are not allowed to wander; he pokes his nose out, but unlike another cat she had, doesn't run off, but runs right back in! So clearly, he feels safer and more comfortable indoors, whereas the other cat clearly wanted more freedom (and even still, was *very* happy and content with my mom, and shouldn't have been wandering anyway, because he was FLV positive). As you said, the kitties always have to be your guide. And as I said to Bob, I know that any one of us, seeing that our cat was clearly bored or unhappy, would do anything to see that change, even if that meant rehoming it. I also disagree about leashes and enclosures....I think those are *wonderful* compromises. A big enough enclosure is much better than a mere cage and gives a cat access to fresh air, greenery and sunshine, and while you certainly can't treat a cat on a harness the same as a dog on a leash, it gives the cat a chance to wander while still being supervised and cared after. So, yes, as long as your cats are fed, loved, happy and healthy (and really, a cat makes it very clear whether it is happy or unhappy), caring for a cat is like caring for a child: we all have opinions, but it is truly up to each individual as to how to best care for their companion. Ann |
[bewtifulfreak]
[Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:09:56 +0100] : You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. : : Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". : :Not everyone in this group lives in the EU, Bob. Nor is that statement of his verifiable. While it is true that many current antifreeze products on the market are "pet safe" (in that they do not contain a significant amount of ethylene glycol), it's impossible to state with any accuracy that there are NO EG-containing antifreezes sold in the entire continent of Europe. -- Bryan S. Slick, bryan_s at slick-family dot net "To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know." |
On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:47:42 GMT, Hope Munro Smith
wrote: I've taken on two cats in the past few years because their owners were forced to move to a home unsuitable for a cat. One, Penny, stayed two years until her old owners were able to find a home in a safer area. The other, Floss, had an owner that was going into residential care, I had her for two months while we found someone in the area who was happy to take her on. As she was an older cat (9 or 10 if I recall) I wanted a home close to where she was used to roaming. I still see her every now and again, at 16+ she is still doing well. A lady who lives in our neighborhood as built a "cat run" -- basically she has encased her entire backyard in fencing with a sort of fencing "roof" so that the cats can be outside but can't leave the yard. It took her *forever* I'm sure, but her cats are completely safe from cars and predators. Cats are NOT cage animals, however large the cage. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. -- Bob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. |
On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:09:56 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote: "Bob Brenchley." wrote in message .. . You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". Not everyone in this group lives in the EU, Bob. So? The fact that all antifreeze made in the EU is pet safe should tell you something. Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, Heard of that happening - guy got a very heavy fine and was soon forced to move as a result of the hate campaign he earnt himself. Our cat was shot by a pellet gun, and ultimately had to be put to sleep. We have no idea who did it, so (s)he gets away with it scot-free, while the cat is now dead. We reported it to the police, for all the good it did; our cat was considered 'property', not a living thing. And I *do* live in UK. Then you will know that the police take ANY and EVERY firearms offence very seriously. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, Something I would have reported to the police. Police generally say they can't do anything about someone who is threatening *you* unless they do something, so I don't think they'd do a whole lot about someone threatening your cat until it was too late. Wrong. Making threats is, in itself, a criminal offence. because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. That is how it should be. Cats represent no danger to humans - dogs do. No, but cats can do damage to property or gardens, And if people don't like that then they have to make their gardens unattractive to cats, not a difficult task. not to mention birds, and thus, many people are very resentful of free-roaming cats either for the damage to their garden or because they're bird lovers or both, The RSPB do not consider cats a major menace to birds. and some will actually go to great lengths to keep cats out of their yards, including doing things to harm the cat. There may be a very tiny minority who would harm cats - but that does no excuse the systematic ill-treatment of cats by keeping them indoors. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. As I said, such threats would be reported to the police. And as I said, to no result whatsoever. Obviously you did not try very hard. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. You would, but your lack of understanding of a cats needs makes your an appallingly bad cat owner. You say all true cat lovers and animal societies feel the way you do, but any research on the 'Net or with various animal societies will prove that there are many others who support the completely opposite view. You may feel they're wrong, but a great many people feel you're wrong as well. ALL true cat lovers, and ALL societies working in the best interests of cats, would not approve of keeping a healthy cat indoors 24/7. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. This is true. Bob says cats are only domesticated in that we've gotten them to live with us, but the fact is, they've lost many of their natural protections and instincts, No they have not. Not one. Zero. and cannot be treated like true wild cats. Despite how little Bob says it happens, wild cats are becoming extinct not only because we're encroaching on their habitat, but, because this is happening, they are coming into human habitats for food, and thus, being shot. Are you really that stupid. Go away and learn something about the wild cats of the world - there are a lot of web sites out there. The all list ONE MAJOR threat to the populations - habitat destruction. Nothing else. If this is happening to big wild cats, what hope do small domestic cats have in protecting themselves against the dangers of city life? Urban feral populations all over the world are not only surviving, but flourishing. It's all well and good to address life in the EU, particularly in UK, but many people in this group are from cities in the US, So what? The cat is the same creature on both sides of the pond. As such it needs the same treatment. I will not stand by and allow American's to ill-treat cat just because they are Americans. and could well chose not to own cats, but there would then be that many more feral cats living a not very satisfying life in the outdoors, How do you work that out? of sickness, attacks, and possibly death, either by people wanting to rid themselves of the population (see Kaeli's site for a tragic story about an entire feral population wiped out by some idiot(s) with a 22.), or by cars, or some other horrible accident befalling them. You're well entitled to your opinion, Bob, but that opinion doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks on this newsgroup. What gives me the right to make personal attacks is the ill-treatment of cats. You should be ashamed of yourself for not only standing by and allowing it to happen, but for also in part condoning it. I'm sure that most of the indoor cats owned by people here, even if not as happy as you believe they could be, are not suffering unduly; indoor owners may be 'sick' in your opinion, but are not blind They are - because if they were not then they would not ill-treat cats like they do. and would be able to see if their cat was sulking around unhappily. And I truly believe that anyone on this group who saw their cat in that state *would*, indeed, find another home for it. Pull the other one. When you have been around cat groups as long as I have you will be sick of the ill-treatment American cats receive from people who claim to be "loving owners". I know I'm wasting my breath, because you will probably just cut and paste your pat line in response, or contradict everything I've said, but I just felt the need to have my say. I won't continue banging my head against this brick wall much longer, though, because that kind of behavior truly *is* sick.... Ann -- Bob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. |
On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:07:19 +0100, "bewtifulfreak"
wrote: One last point on the indoor-outdoor debate: there aren't enough homes for stray cats as it is, so if you eliminate cat lovers who live in certain areas from having cats, there will just be that many more cats wandering homeless, and ill-equipped for it. I believe a cat suffers far more living a feral life than it does living an indoor life with a loving caretaker-companion, though, again, I realize you, Bob, will disagree. Ann You bet I will disagree. There are more than enough homes, if only more American shelters would learn the lessons the British ones can give. Those shelters I help are all no-kill, and that means they also will never turn away a cat in need. They are, I'm pleased to say, now all operating the rule of not homing healthy cats to indoor-only situations except for short term fostering pending the finding of a proper home. Others can follow, I've offered help many times in the past. I cannot go to the States to work hands on, but I can certainly teach them how to run their shelters and how to raise the money necessary to reach these goals. -- Bob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. |
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 06:39:49 -0400, Bryan S. Slick
wrote: [bewtifulfreak] [Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:09:56 +0100] : You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. : : Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". : :Not everyone in this group lives in the EU, Bob. Nor is that statement of his verifiable. While it is true that many current antifreeze products on the market are "pet safe" (in that they do not contain a significant amount of ethylene glycol), it's impossible to state with any accuracy that there are NO EG-containing antifreezes sold in the entire continent of Europe. Sick Slick - Animal Abuser. Wondered when the scum of the cat world would raise his ugly animal abusing head again. -- Bob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. |
On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 02:29:57 -0500, "DeAnna"
wrote: "Bob Brenchley." wrote in message .. . On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:17:21 -0500, "DeAnna" wrote: If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. Sir- Where do you live? You don't have any cat haters for neighbors? No. There may be the odd one who doesn't like cats very much, but that would make them odd now wouldn't it? Or perhaps you don't *know* you do? You know, the ones who are nice to your face, but secretly put antifreeze in a dish next to the garbage can that your cat rummages in, because he is throwing trash across their patio? You have some strange garbage cans if a cat can do that. Also, all antifreeze produced in the EU is "pet safe". Or the one who shoots the cat with a pellet gun, Heard of that happening - guy got a very heavy fine and was soon forced to move as a result of the hate campaign he earnt himself. because the cat digs up his garden? Or the person who just hates cats because they are 'cats' and knowing swerves to HIT instead of swerving to miss, as kitty crosses the road? Sure, and then he gets done for hitting the parked cars :) Are you aware that cats are the most frequently tortured of all domestic animals? Nope. Are you aware how infrequent any animal torture really is? So there is no traffic where you live? Lots. No cases of feline AIDS? Not many. No fleas Lots of those, but then humans bring them indoors on their clothes as well. or mosquitoes Nope. carrying worms or other blood-borne disease or parasite? Let me know where this Cat Utopia exists, because I'd love to live there. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The feral we just took in, was because the neighbors (on whose destructive dog I had complained to Animal Control) were threatening to harm the cat, Something I would have reported to the police. because (and I must say unfairly) they couldn't just CALL animal control, as there is currently no law forbidding cats to roam and destroy, but there is a law prohibiting DOGS from doing so. That is how it should be. Cats represent no danger to humans - dogs do. It wasn't even our cat, but looked similar to our cat, so they 'assumed' it belonged to us and threatened harm if we didn't 'keep it from bothering their dog'. As I said, such threats would be reported to the police. Call me an 'abuser' all you like. This baby isn't going any where near the outdoors. The you are not just an abuser - but a very sick one. I prefer to call myself a 'responsible' pet owner. You would, but your lack of understanding of a cats needs makes your an appallingly bad cat owner. I am responsible for the behaviour of my kitties, as well as my dog, and NONE of them are allowed off the property. They can go outside on leashes, or attended if they obey me and stay in the yard (as my "son" did). They will soon have an area that is 'enclosed' keeping them safely away from any predators, especially the humans predators, of the ignorant and violent persuasion, yet allowing them access to the grass, and sights and smells of outdoors. Your animal abusing sickness seems to be very deep rooted. Maybe you should seek treatment for your mental problems. I am not going to turn this little darling outside, to find her headless body on my doorstep as part of some nasty neighbor feud, simply because I wouldn't allow their dog to live at my house, eating my shoes and chewing up my garden hose. One bad thing about domestication. We teach animals to trust humans. Sometimes I think that is ultimately a bad thing. :( Like I tried to explain to a friend about rehabbing wild creatures. You must not imprint them too much, because that fear and mistrust of humans may save their lives. Not all humans are kind and good. Sorry, I have to go "abuse" my babies, it is time for their nightly snack of cream and/or tuna, and they have all taken turn to come remind me. :) They certainly have me very well trained. You really are sick. D. PS-The door was opened to let the dog 'do her business' for the night. All of the cats ran in the opposite direction as I held open the door, though I made no effort to stop them going onto the porch. The dog went out long enough to accomplish what she had to, then promptly sat at the door until I opened the screen for her to come in. I am thinking they'd all rather be in this comfy A/C, lounging on comfy furniture, and licking the tuna from their chins, than 'roaming'...... -- Moronic posting style corrected. You have been charged $50 for this service, please remit by international money order as a donation to Cats Protection (cats.org.uk) within the next 7 days. Be warned that repeated use of this service will incur a escalating rate of charges. Mr. Brenchley- Have you no better manners than to hurl unfounded insults at those who disagree with your personal opinion? Shame on you. After many years on cat groups trying to educated the ignorant - no. I do not believe for one moment that you can sit on your self-righteous high horse and sanctimoniously claim that you have no "cat haters" in the UK or Northern Ireland. Where did I ever say that? You've folks there that kill other humans for their difference in religious beliefs. And you expect me to believe that no one becomes enraged over the destruction of their property? By cats? No, not really. Oft times, it is not a hatred of the animal, but a resentment of the inconsiderate neighbor who'd let them run amok, defacing things that do not belong to them, that spurs the retaliatory behaviour, which is then taken out upon the unsuspecting, trusting pet. People who do not like animals in their gardens have the right to keep them out. They do not have the right to harm the animal though. It is a matter of personal responsibility, and not only cats, but dogs, and any other pets or livestock, and even extended to children, that are bound by this code of civility. You don't break or destroy, or allow to be broken or destroyed, that which you do not own. Anything less is vandalism, and the owner has every right to want retribution. Some owners however, take less than legal forms of retribution, and the end victim ends up being the poor trusting creature. As for the antifreeze in EU, it is wonderful that you have only the non-toxic form. Nope - not none-toxic. A chemical that is added makes the antifreeze unpalatable to animals (and kids). The basic anti-freeze is the same. However, I am sure you folks have rat poison. That is how Aja, my mother's beloved Persian died. D-con mixed with canned cat food. The neighbors were upset that the cat used their prize winning garden as a litter box. As it could not be proved, there was nothing we could do, and it wouldn't have mattered. The kitty was dead, and no matter of finger pointing or even criminal conviction would have brought him back. But for the sake of other cats a criminal conviction would have helped. Most people would not have rat poison, in fact I can't remember the last time I saw any being used. And of course, tests would soon link the poison to the death and then the police would prosecute. You say "Not many" cases of Feline Aids? Watch one of your babies waste slowly away, slowly dying before your helpless hands, and say "How many?" is too many. To me, ONE is too many. A generic "not many" doesn't cut it. I don't enjoy seeing any animal die in my arms. Life can never be without risk, but you try for the balance. As for the neighbors making threats, you can report 'such threats' to police (I reported them to animal control when I posted the cat as "found"-here you must post an animal as found for three days, and when the 'owner' fails to come to the pound looking for them, they belong to you). Only three days? It really should be three weeks, which allows for people taking a couple of weeks holiday and the cat going AWOL on the first day. However, you can't prosecute someone for what they *might* do. *IF* they carry through, and *BIG IF* they can *PROVE* they did it, THEN AND ONLY THEN, will they be held responsible. Well if they make threats, that in itself can be a criminal offence, but it would at least get them a warning from the police that they had better not try anything. If something then happened to the cat, well the police do not take being ignored like that very lightly. But is it better to prevent the misdeed, than to attempt to gain recompense after the fact? Would you allow your child to be murdered so you could prosecute the guilty party? Your stupidity is showing. A cat is NOT a child, by the age of a year it is a full adult. Would you keep your sister in 24/7 just because there is a risk she could be mugged or raped if she went out? What you do is to look at your area, and if you consider it unsafe for cats to freely roam for at least some time each day, then DON'T have cats. If you think animal torture to be infrequent, you must either by someone who doesn't watch the news, or someone who is delusional. And the frequency is of no matter to the victim's family. It only takes that once, to drive a stake of pain through their heart. The fact that it hasn't happened often is of no consolation to those who lost a loved one. But it is no excuse to ill-treat cats by keeping them indoors 24/7. Even in the UK, some children are murdered by strangers - but that does not mean we keep all our kids indoors 24/7. What it means is that, as a society, we do all we can to catch and punish the murderers - making it less likely that others will be tempted to follow suit. I hope my "deep rooted" "sickness" and "abuse" of protecting and nurturing my animals with the same care and tenderness But you are NOT showing then care and tenderness - your are not providing them with a proper life. At best the manage a rather meager half-life, cut of from so much that is important to them. that I show my human offspring spreads to every human. I have had very few cats that ever desired to be outdoors. Liar! Even when THEY are given the choice, they prefer to be indoors. Well if you systematically abuse them long enough that is the sort of miserable half-cat you get as a result. Perhaps they know more than any of us give them credit for. Those who truly love their animals would literally lay down their lives for them, and would never intentionally put them in harms way. You live in a very sad little dream world - life is a balance, and you are not allowing your cat to live its life. That includes in the path of a moving car, an angry neighbor, or a disease infested wild animal, that picks a fight out of the need to survive. No animal in my care will come to any harm at all, Liar! You put your cats at greater risk of disease than I do, because their immune systems will not be able to cope with things properly. You put your cats at FAR greater risk when they do eventually escape (as all cats do). if I can at all help it. They are all very healthy, happy, and loving, and that speaks volumes more truth, than any opinion typed in ignorance. The only ignorance is yours - animal abuser. If you truly believe in all that you put in your posts, I feel very sorry for you, and for the animals in your care. You must be a bitter, miserable person to be so hateful, and contemptuous in the way you treat other people, and it makes me wonder how that translates to how you treat those poor creatures who are in your care. D. -- Bob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. |
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