In article , oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
However I do like to watch agility shows.
Awww those poor doggies being *frced* to run about and get their legs
jarred when the seesaw bangs down, and being forced to weave and bend
and go through tunnels when everyone knows that dogs hate going into
dark tunnels and would prefer to be at home on familiar ground. The
stress of going in the car for hours and being at big noisy scary show
halls is simply cruel. They bark and yelp in panic all the way round the
course.


God, I hope you were being sarcastic to try to make some point that was
lost.

Dogs adore agility.
No one forces them. It's all positive training with treats, unless some
neanderthals somewhere are still using force training. I know of no
trainers who still use that for agility.
A dog works best without fear.

I watched a programme on TV about police dogs the other week and was
in total awe of the job those dogs do. They obviously do get a kick
out of working and being rewarded.
They do indeed. They get a kick, or jerked with the choke chain or
hanged till they go unconscious. Shame when one of them died from it a
few years back isn't it?

That was indeed the old way of training (koehler). Sad, eh? That was why
police dogs couldn't be brought into public without muzzles on.
Of course, most places have stopped such barbarism these days. But you
wouldn't be in touch with the last 15 years or so, I guess. Still
watching 20 year old American programs over on that side of the pond?


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~kaeli~
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from
many is research.
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:39 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to).

The show I went to was in the UK, it was a small venue. The judges
lifted each cat from its cage and held it in the air while looking at
it from various angles, in its ears, under its tail etc etc. I've
asked a few people about this and the general consensus is that the
cats are usually taken from the cages and put on a trolley to be
examined before moving on to the next. This is done in full public
view - presumably to stop any cheating or ambiguity.

And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:39 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
They are not, from what you've said. The judges DO judge in front of
everyone, not behind closed doors (at least at the ones I went to).

The show I went to was in the UK, it was a small venue. The judges
lifted each cat from its cage and held it in the air while looking at
it from various angles, in its ears, under its tail etc etc. I've
asked a few people about this and the general consensus is that the
cats are usually taken from the cages and put on a trolley to be
examined before moving on to the next. This is done in full public
view - presumably to stop any cheating or ambiguity.

And
the cats don't look overly pleased while they're being held aloft for
all to see. Nor do many of them look pleased to be cooped up in tiny
cages for hours on end (no one in the general public can touch them, as
they might spread disease). This is life. One day of being not-so-
thrilled once in awhile for many, many days of pampered joy. I think
they'll live. *g*

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.


Why do you feel that it is barbaric?


--
--
~kaeli~
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher probability
of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.


Why do you feel that it is barbaric?


--
--
~kaeli~
The more ridiculous a belief system, the higher probability
of its success.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:44:01 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.


Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.
Like I said, all animals are beautiful, you can't say one is more
superior to any other. Breeding cats to have certain traits for the
sake of appearance or breeders' egos or whatever reason they do it,
shouldn't be rewarded IMO. And trapping them in cages just so they can
be shown off doesn't sound like a very humane thing to do, yes they
tolerate it (some more than others) but whose benefit is a cat show
for? Certainly not a cat's. That aspect I do find barbaric. It's bad
enough trapping them to take them to the vet, but at least that's an
absolute necessity, not a pastime.

It reminds me of the pompous aristocrats of the 19th century who
prized their mutant cross-breed cattle to the point they had portraits
done of them which hanged on the walls of their stately homes
alongside the oil paintings of Great Great Uncle Farquarstonehaugh.
Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:44:01 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Oh absolutely. Like I said in the original post, I don't doubt the
cats are hideously pampered and the owners loved showing them off and
chatting about it, I just think it's quite a barbaric practice to
still be doing in this so-called civilised world.


Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.
Like I said, all animals are beautiful, you can't say one is more
superior to any other. Breeding cats to have certain traits for the
sake of appearance or breeders' egos or whatever reason they do it,
shouldn't be rewarded IMO. And trapping them in cages just so they can
be shown off doesn't sound like a very humane thing to do, yes they
tolerate it (some more than others) but whose benefit is a cat show
for? Certainly not a cat's. That aspect I do find barbaric. It's bad
enough trapping them to take them to the vet, but at least that's an
absolute necessity, not a pastime.

It reminds me of the pompous aristocrats of the 19th century who
prized their mutant cross-breed cattle to the point they had portraits
done of them which hanged on the walls of their stately homes
alongside the oil paintings of Great Great Uncle Farquarstonehaugh.
Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.

Can't disagree with you there.

I think using a term as loaded as "barbaric" for something that does no
harm is a bit, well, heavy-handed.
There's a lot of things in this world I'd call barbaric. They include
circumcision, animal testing, fur farms, declawing, and all kinds of
other atrocities that DO harm and sometimes kill.
As much as I don't think showing animals is a lot of fun for them, I
wouldn't call it barbaric. Pointless, yes. To me anyway. Cruel? No. No
more cruel than making our children dress nice and sit quietly in
church, someplace I'm pretty sure they'd rather not be. *eg*

Cruel is breeding cats (and dogs) with such pushed-in faces that they
have problems with as basic an act as breathing.
(glad to hear persian breeders have been toning THAT down)

I guess it's all relative, though.

Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

Classic. :)
And how true. Though it's been well more than 200 years that we've been
breeding animals (world-wide).

--
--
~kaeli~
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Why do you feel that it is barbaric?

The whole idea of 'showing' cats just seems pretty pointless to me.

Can't disagree with you there.

I think using a term as loaded as "barbaric" for something that does no
harm is a bit, well, heavy-handed.
There's a lot of things in this world I'd call barbaric. They include
circumcision, animal testing, fur farms, declawing, and all kinds of
other atrocities that DO harm and sometimes kill.
As much as I don't think showing animals is a lot of fun for them, I
wouldn't call it barbaric. Pointless, yes. To me anyway. Cruel? No. No
more cruel than making our children dress nice and sit quietly in
church, someplace I'm pretty sure they'd rather not be. *eg*

Cruel is breeding cats (and dogs) with such pushed-in faces that they
have problems with as basic an act as breathing.
(glad to hear persian breeders have been toning THAT down)

I guess it's all relative, though.

Two hundred years on and we're still patting each other on the back
for breeding animals.

Classic. :)
And how true. Though it's been well more than 200 years that we've been
breeding animals (world-wide).

--
--
~kaeli~
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
@REMOVETHISbitches.co.uk enlightened us with...
Kristine Kochanski wrote:

You obviously have *no* understanding of cat behaviour. You probably
have one overweight pampered moggy at home and assume that the world is
a nice place full of nice people where nice things happen every day.

And YOU assume that cat shows in the States are the same as in the UK.
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.