On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.



Not me.

I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
if you don't like it.

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Nature didn't intend anything.
We bred them.

Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

Have you seen the studies on dogs that show that if left alone and wild,
dogs revert back to smallish, dun-colored, erect eared, dingo-ish
looking dogs?
I thought that was kinda neat.
Feral and wild dogs the world over tend to all have that same look.


Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
The aren't that vain IME. *G*

Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
heheh.


*LOL*
My neighbor has a Newfie that he gets practically shaved in the summer,
but he doesn't seem to notice it much. I've never seen such a care-free
dog. That dog is so calm, the Apocolypse could come and go and he would
just lie there, basking in the sun. *g*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Nature didn't intend anything.
We bred them.

Yeah :o( I'd still rather see them as nature intended though. Nature
creates the most beautiful creatures without us interfering.

Have you seen the studies on dogs that show that if left alone and wild,
dogs revert back to smallish, dun-colored, erect eared, dingo-ish
looking dogs?
I thought that was kinda neat.
Feral and wild dogs the world over tend to all have that same look.


Of course, I truly doubt the dog cares a whit what it's hair looks like.
The aren't that vain IME. *G*

Heheh, I don't know, my friend had a stunning big Old English
Sheepdog. Every summer it would go and have all its hair shorn off and
he just *knew* he looked stupid, he'd mope around miserable for days,
heheh.


*LOL*
My neighbor has a Newfie that he gets practically shaved in the summer,
but he doesn't seem to notice it much. I've never seen such a care-free
dog. That dog is so calm, the Apocolypse could come and go and he would
just lie there, basking in the sun. *g*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.

Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
(and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
24/7 in.


I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
*heh*

Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
aggressive.

I was reading a book called "The Other Side of the Leash" that made the
point really well.

(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
happier with the whole thing.
I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.
See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:52:50 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article ,
enlightened us with...

Dogs aren't territorial like cats, nor are they trapped inside cages.

Of course they are. Have you ever had a dog? They make wonderful guards
for the exact reason that they are territorial (most, not all).

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners. Although they fiercely guard their home territory
(and it's not really the territory, is it? it's the pack they're
protecting), they're also used to going places so going to a show
isn't as stressful as taking a cat out of the environment it spends
24/7 in.


I see. Sorry about that. Most cats DO hate being taken away from home,
but if you get them used to it young, they don't mind.
My one cat loves going for walks, but she's been doing it since she was
8 weeks old. The other two would really prefer to sit on the porch.
*heh*

Also, unfortunately, unless socialized well and taken places, dogs are
just as bad as cats at being taken into unfamiliar territory. It's just
more common for people to take their dogs places, but if you look at the
sad cases where the dog was kept in the yard its whole life or chained
to a fence or a tree, it's very shy and afraid, like a cat, or worse,
aggressive.

I was reading a book called "The Other Side of the Leash" that made the
point really well.

(most) Dogs are territorial and they are often crated (caged) both for
the trip to the show and at it. It's safest.

Again, I didn't put that very well, the dogs don't spend their
showtime sitting miserable in a cage, only taken out to be examined.
They get a chance to show off, please their owner, get a few treats.
There's much more in it for the dog at the show than a cat.

Yeah, there is more in it for most dogs. I'd agree that they are a lot
happier with the whole thing.
I think though that most cats, hating the odd surroundings, would prefer
the cage. Well, they'd prefer staying at home, really, but they like
small, safe places. I've seen a few bold cats that liked it. Most had
that kid-in-church (can I go home now?!) look though. *g*

We are humans, so we think like humans. We don't like cages. However,
dogs and cats often think of cages as safe places. Cats love to hide in
places like boxes, small closets, under houses, and the like when they
feel threatened. Dogs are den animals by nature. The cat shows I went to
had the cages covered partially with sheets or towels for added comfort
for the kitties, so they felt secure and safe.
See that book above I was talking about. It's a great read about how
humans have a really hard time thinking about things in the same way
dogs do (and by extension, cats) because we're a lot more like primates.
Really interesting. I loved the part about us using our voices
repetitively and moving our hands about when we get excited. *heh*

--
--
~kaeli~
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than
standing in a garage makes you a car.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.



Not me.

I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
if you don't like it.


Who said I didn't? I don't give a darn. ;)

(you replied to my post)

--
--
~kaeli~
A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

In article ,
enlightened us with...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 08:55:50 -0500, kaeli
wrote:

In article , oldmolly1955
enlightened us with...
Oops, I assumed that as I amreading a UK newsgroup I would be reading
about UK cat shows. I didn't realise you had crossposted this to other
newsgroups.



Not me.

I crossposted it in the original post. Since I've subscribed to both
groups for ages I thought I'd double my chances of a reply. Apologies
if you don't like it.


Who said I didn't? I don't give a darn. ;)

(you replied to my post)

--
--
~kaeli~
A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Kristine Kochanski dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners.

This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
with dogs?

--
Cheryl

Kristine Kochanski dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners.

This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
with dogs?

--
Cheryl

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:58:04 -0500, Cheryl
wrote:

Kristine Kochanski dumped this in
on 28 Apr 2004:

I phrased that wrongly, I was trying to make the point (badly,
obviously!) that cats are territory-led and don't like being removed
from it. Dogs are used to going long walks, trips in the car, visits
with their owners.

This is only because this is what is done. It is accepted. IMO, cats could
adjust to this type of lifestyle, and some do take their cats everywhere
they go. It is stereotyping. Cats are, well, cats. Independent. Skittish.
Wild. I have no doubt that a cat started out as a kitten being used to
being treated like people treat dogs would adjust to it and thrive. But
that is shaping it in a way that is unnatural. Isn't that what was done
with dogs?

I totally agree that it's only 'normal' because we;ve made it that way
but it's probably that way reason - ie that dogs' natural behaviour
makes them easier to train.

I don't know, might be wrong. I walk my cats on leads and people think
it's insane/cruel yet they think it's normal for people to walk dogs
on leads (!), so I see where you're coming from. But I think there are
also more limitations, eg. cats get much more easily spooked than
dogs, so I wouldn't go into a busy area, or risk a dog attacking it.