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Crane, Gaubster, PhilP



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 31st 03, 08:41 PM
Ann Martin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Crane, Gaubster, PhilP

"Ann Martin" wrote in message


My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken
such a defensive stand? You all seemed concerned that I am making all
kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate
that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics.

Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions
per year.
What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing
them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the
only way they can have a healthy pet. In the meantime these people,
the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from
feeding this garbage. Ads depict steaks, whole grains, quality
vegetables and fats going into these products when in reality what is
going into these pet foods is garbage that would otherwise end up in
landfill or be incinerated.

All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where
is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that
ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the
USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they
have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in
pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets
guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very
few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many
from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients
used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a
previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair,"
dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste,"
"dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES,
THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY.

You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods
but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are. You
can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that
garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us
to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced
diet."

You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I
have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the
USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in
pet food. I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to
their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from
David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM who stated that the AAFCO
ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD.

Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots
Stew.
"I spent nearly an hour on the phone with
this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could
not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus
levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human
grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter."


Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the
owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the
conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi
Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are
always in compliance.

I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such
inaccurate information.

These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food
poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this
was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It
was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was
taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then
there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize.
Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with
other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other
chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then
sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this
enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe.
Probably does not mean it is safe. As I have also mentioned, the
FDA/CVM has admitted that if this drug, in any amount, was found in
human food it would be pulled from the shelves immediately. Not so
with pet foods.

When anyone questions any of you and you are backed into a corner your
resort to derogatory remarks and name calling, you never answer the
questions that are addressed to you.

As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like
you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on
the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented
information they require.

Ann
  #2  
Old August 31st 03, 11:43 PM
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Ann Martin" wrote in message


I thought you weren't going to waste your time replying to me? LOL!



Now comes the poor innocent, little victimized, altruist routine! LOL!

My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken
such a defensive stand?


....of you starting and perpetuating rumors and scare tactics to scare people
into a feeding plan that isn't necessary and they may not be prepared to
follow -- all based largely on innuendo, conjecture and manipulated facts -
as demonstrated to your reference to taurine-deficient diets which was
corrected nearly 20 years ago.... How's that, for starters?



You all seemed concerned that I am making all
kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate
that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics.


They *are* - Are your books free? Do you appear on radio shoes for free, too
or to promote your books - i.e., free advertising? .



Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions
per year.


So does, GM, Ford and about a 1000 other companies....


What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing
them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the
only way they can have a healthy pet.


Obviously they;re not lying.... since cats are living longer today than
they've ever lived before.... Because cats are living longer, didn't it ever
occur to you that most of the diseases occur secondary to aging...? Or
doesn't that fit with your agenda....?


In the meantime these people,
the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from
feeding this garbage.


Bullsh!t. I can singlehandedly debunk your bullsh!t because my cats have
been eating commercial food for 18 years and have never been sick a day in
their lives... other than a case of worms they got in the shelter when they
were kittens...My other cats lived to 22, 19, and 20 years- on commercial
food.

So much for your bullsh!t, eh Annie...?


Fodder snipped just for the hell of it


You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods


Obviously a subject you know nothing about....

but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are.


The ingredients are defined in the AAFCO Ingredients Definitions,

You
can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that
garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us
to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced
diet."


That's what feeding trial are for, Einstein! That's how the digestibility,
and bioavailabilty of the nutrients are determined!

Does "gross energy", "digestible energy" and "metabolizable energy" ring any
bells...Einstein? .. or didn't you even get that far in Nutrition 101! LOL!




You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I
have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the
USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in
pet food.


I would have liked to see your original inquiry.... You can ask a question
in such a way to get almost the exact, if not the exact answer you want...
Hey, be realistic, you're not exactly unbaised and you do have an agenda...


I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to
their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from
David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM


Formerly? He wouldn't be a disgruntled former employee would he? Hey, I
can play the innuendo and conjecture game too! How do you like it? LOL!


who stated that the AAFCO
ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD.


Nice manipulation! You're pretty good - but not good enough....

Because an ingredient has the same description, that doesn't mean that
ingredient can be used in either food!


"9. ANIMAL PRODUCTS . Official

*Use of this ingredient, from mammalian origins, is restricted to
non-ruminant feeds unless specifically exempted by 21 CFR 589.2000."

All the ingredients only allowed in cat food bear the "*".

The same ingredient can have different energy and nutritional values for
different animals....

I'll make this real simple so I know you'll understand: For example,
Einstein, grass has different energy and nutrient values for a cow that it
does for a cat. And even though a horse is a nonruminant, the energy and
nutrient values are different than for a cat or a cow because of the lenght
of the horses digestive system.... I guess you slept through that class of
Nutrition 101! LOL!



Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots
Stew.
"I spent nearly an hour on the phone with
this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could
not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus
levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human
grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter."


Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the
owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the
conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi
Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are
always in compliance.

I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such
inaccurate information.


ROTFLMAO! You just made a liar out of YOURSELF! (Not hard to do). What
happened to the "garbage"???




These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food
poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this
was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It
was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was
taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then
there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize.
Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with
other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other
chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then
sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this
enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe.
Probably does not mean it is safe.


So you perpetuated a rumour and scare tactic based on nothing more than
innuendo and conjecture - even though *your own source* didn;t even imply
there was a danger! You created a rumour and scare tactic -- no way out of
that! You just admitted it youself! LOL! There is no proof, even
according to you, that pentobarbital poses any danger at the levels found.

About 90% of all food ingredients are GRAS! "Gernerally regarded as safe"


As far as I'm concerned, even based partly on your *own* admission, YOU'RE
FULL OF **** and nothing but a scamming, manipulator - if not an actual liar

Anyone who believes your book, I know where they can get "waterfront"
property in Fla (not far from the Everglades) and Rolex watches real cheap!
LOL!

more bullsh!t snipped




  #3  
Old August 31st 03, 11:43 PM
Phil P.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ann Martin" wrote in message
om...
"Ann Martin" wrote in message


I thought you weren't going to waste your time replying to me? LOL!



Now comes the poor innocent, little victimized, altruist routine! LOL!

My question is, what are you all so frightened of that you have taken
such a defensive stand?


....of you starting and perpetuating rumors and scare tactics to scare people
into a feeding plan that isn't necessary and they may not be prepared to
follow -- all based largely on innuendo, conjecture and manipulated facts -
as demonstrated to your reference to taurine-deficient diets which was
corrected nearly 20 years ago.... How's that, for starters?



You all seemed concerned that I am making all
kinds of money from my books and television radio shows. You insinuate
that all information in my books are nothing more then scare tactics.


They *are* - Are your books free? Do you appear on radio shoes for free, too
or to promote your books - i.e., free advertising? .



Let's look at the pet food industry, an industry that makes billions
per year.


So does, GM, Ford and about a 1000 other companies....


What is this industry doing? Lying to the pet owner's, brain washing
them into believing that feeding commercial pet foods, garbage, is the
only way they can have a healthy pet.


Obviously they;re not lying.... since cats are living longer today than
they've ever lived before.... Because cats are living longer, didn't it ever
occur to you that most of the diseases occur secondary to aging...? Or
doesn't that fit with your agenda....?


In the meantime these people,
the pet owner's, are incurring thousands of dollars in vet bills from
feeding this garbage.


Bullsh!t. I can singlehandedly debunk your bullsh!t because my cats have
been eating commercial food for 18 years and have never been sick a day in
their lives... other than a case of worms they got in the shelter when they
were kittens...My other cats lived to 22, 19, and 20 years- on commercial
food.

So much for your bullsh!t, eh Annie...?


Fodder snipped just for the hell of it


You ramble on about the nutrient value of the ingredients in pet foods


Obviously a subject you know nothing about....

but you neglect to mention what these ingredients actually are.


The ingredients are defined in the AAFCO Ingredients Definitions,

You
can derive nutrients from nearly anything including garbage. To that
garbage add a substantial amount of vitamins, minerals and you want us
to believe that you will be feeding your pet a "complete and balanced
diet."


That's what feeding trial are for, Einstein! That's how the digestibility,
and bioavailabilty of the nutrients are determined!

Does "gross energy", "digestible energy" and "metabolizable energy" ring any
bells...Einstein? .. or didn't you even get that far in Nutrition 101! LOL!




You have persisted in asking for documentation as to the information I
have posted. I've provided that including the e-mail from the
USDA/FSIS stating they have no input at all into the ingredients in
pet food.


I would have liked to see your original inquiry.... You can ask a question
in such a way to get almost the exact, if not the exact answer you want...
Hey, be realistic, you're not exactly unbaised and you do have an agenda...


I've quote from letter received from the FDA/CVM as to
their knowledge that pets ARE used in commercial pet foods and from
David Dzanis, DVM, formerly with the FDA/CVM


Formerly? He wouldn't be a disgruntled former employee would he? Hey, I
can play the innuendo and conjecture game too! How do you like it? LOL!


who stated that the AAFCO
ingredient definitions applied to both livestock feed and PET FOOD.


Nice manipulation! You're pretty good - but not good enough....

Because an ingredient has the same description, that doesn't mean that
ingredient can be used in either food!


"9. ANIMAL PRODUCTS . Official

*Use of this ingredient, from mammalian origins, is restricted to
non-ruminant feeds unless specifically exempted by 21 CFR 589.2000."

All the ingredients only allowed in cat food bear the "*".

The same ingredient can have different energy and nutritional values for
different animals....

I'll make this real simple so I know you'll understand: For example,
Einstein, grass has different energy and nutrient values for a cow that it
does for a cat. And even though a horse is a nonruminant, the energy and
nutrient values are different than for a cat or a cow because of the lenght
of the horses digestive system.... I guess you slept through that class of
Nutrition 101! LOL!



Crane wrote that he had spoken to Halo, the company that makes 'Spots
Stew.
"I spent nearly an hour on the phone with
this lady and found out she had never had the food analyzed and could
not even begin to give me an answer about the calcium and phosphorus
levels in the food. She kept insisting that since it was all "human
grade" the levels of these minerals didn't matter."


Well he must have spoken to the cleaning lady because Andi Brown, the
owner of the company was out of town last week. If this is the
conversation he had with the cleaning woman then she lied because Andi
Brown replied that they continually have their food analyzed and are
always in compliance.

I suggest that you get your story straight the next time you post such
inaccurate information.


ROTFLMAO! You just made a liar out of YOURSELF! (Not hard to do). What
happened to the "garbage"???




These three also continue to insist that the pentobarbital in pet food
poses no danger. I've questioned them a number of times that if this
was the case why was the investigation begun in the first place? It
was because dogs were building up a resistance to this drug and it was
taking more to euthanize the. If this drug ws having no effect then
there should have been no change in the amounts it took to euthanize.
Also, the FDA/CVM did not consider the interaction of this drug with
other drugs. They did not consider the interaction with other
chemicals found in pet food. They measured ONE liver enzyme then
sought to find the minimal daily dose that did not elevate this
enzyme. The conclusion arrived at was this drug was "probably" safe.
Probably does not mean it is safe.


So you perpetuated a rumour and scare tactic based on nothing more than
innuendo and conjecture - even though *your own source* didn;t even imply
there was a danger! You created a rumour and scare tactic -- no way out of
that! You just admitted it youself! LOL! There is no proof, even
according to you, that pentobarbital poses any danger at the levels found.

About 90% of all food ingredients are GRAS! "Gernerally regarded as safe"


As far as I'm concerned, even based partly on your *own* admission, YOU'RE
FULL OF **** and nothing but a scamming, manipulator - if not an actual liar

Anyone who believes your book, I know where they can get "waterfront"
property in Fla (not far from the Everglades) and Rolex watches real cheap!
LOL!

more bullsh!t snipped




  #6  
Old August 31st 03, 11:50 PM
Mary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD


http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled."

That's about it.

Also, if this is the IBD group Petco now sells Bene-bac, probiotics in tubes. I
used some on my squirrels and cat after giving them antibiotics and it worked
great. Maybe the IBD cats could use some.

I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade
food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings,
preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it
for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with
vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been
everything else in there.
  #7  
Old August 31st 03, 11:50 PM
Mary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD


http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled."

That's about it.

Also, if this is the IBD group Petco now sells Bene-bac, probiotics in tubes. I
used some on my squirrels and cat after giving them antibiotics and it worked
great. Maybe the IBD cats could use some.

I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade
food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings,
preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it
for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with
vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been
everything else in there.
  #8  
Old September 1st 03, 01:06 PM
Ann Martin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

pam (Mary) wrote in message ...
NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD


http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled."

That's about it.


Mary, I believe that is from Code of Federal Regulations, Title 21,
Food and Drugs, Part 500. I also think if you contact the FDA/CVM they
will advise you that neither they nor any other agency actually
inspects or tests the ingredients used in pet food. A good example of
this is the sodium pentobarbital. Dr. Stephen Sundlof from the
FDA/CVM, replied when I questioned the pentobarbital which was found
in pet food. He stated that this drug was not to be in food for human
or animal consumption "Do not use in animals intended for food" in the
regulation (21 CFR 522.900) for Euthanasia solution applies only to
food destined for human consumption or food for human and animal
consumption." The FDA/CVM has also stated that if any amount was found
in human food it would be pulled from the shelves immediately yet they
do not plan any action to remove it from pet foods. It is a
barbiturate under the Federal Controlled Substance Act (DEA).

What I suggest is that people contact the FDA/CVM and ask them
directly if they, or any other branch of the government or any agency
such as the AAFCO, actually test the materials used in commercial pet
food. I can guarantee that as long as the contents meet the label
requirments, levels of protein, carbohydrate, fats, that is all that
is considered. It does not matter what comprises the protein, carbs
or fats.

Someone also stated that the AAFCO, classifed livestock and pet food
in different catagories. Dr. David Dzanis, formerly a veterinary
medical officer with the CVM, made it clear in a letter that ALL AAFCO
'ingredient definitions' applied to both livestock and pet food.


I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade
food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings,
preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it
for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with
vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been
everything else in there.


At least you would know what is going into the food you are feed your
IBD cat which is not the case with commercial pet foods. The pet food
industry states that home prepared diets are not complete and balanced
and that we are basically killing our pets if we don't feed commercial
pet foods. I know hundreds of pets that are now eating a homemade
diet and doing extremely well including my three cats and dog.

Ann
  #9  
Old September 1st 03, 01:06 PM
Ann Martin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

pam (Mary) wrote in message ...
NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD


http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfoodflier.html

"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be pure and wholesome,
contain no harmful or deleterious substances, and be truthfully labeled."

That's about it.


Mary, I believe that is from Code of Federal Regulations, Title 21,
Food and Drugs, Part 500. I also think if you contact the FDA/CVM they
will advise you that neither they nor any other agency actually
inspects or tests the ingredients used in pet food. A good example of
this is the sodium pentobarbital. Dr. Stephen Sundlof from the
FDA/CVM, replied when I questioned the pentobarbital which was found
in pet food. He stated that this drug was not to be in food for human
or animal consumption "Do not use in animals intended for food" in the
regulation (21 CFR 522.900) for Euthanasia solution applies only to
food destined for human consumption or food for human and animal
consumption." The FDA/CVM has also stated that if any amount was found
in human food it would be pulled from the shelves immediately yet they
do not plan any action to remove it from pet foods. It is a
barbiturate under the Federal Controlled Substance Act (DEA).

What I suggest is that people contact the FDA/CVM and ask them
directly if they, or any other branch of the government or any agency
such as the AAFCO, actually test the materials used in commercial pet
food. I can guarantee that as long as the contents meet the label
requirments, levels of protein, carbohydrate, fats, that is all that
is considered. It does not matter what comprises the protein, carbs
or fats.

Someone also stated that the AAFCO, classifed livestock and pet food
in different catagories. Dr. David Dzanis, formerly a veterinary
medical officer with the CVM, made it clear in a letter that ALL AAFCO
'ingredient definitions' applied to both livestock and pet food.


I think if you have the knowledge of nutrition, desire and money, a homemade
food would be preferable as it won't have additives, colorings, flavorings,
preservatives... My IBD cat couldn't eat store bought food. I had to make it
for him. I used the same ingredients in the can food, chicken and rice with
vitamin/mineral powder, but it didn't make him sick so it must have been
everything else in there.


At least you would know what is going into the food you are feed your
IBD cat which is not the case with commercial pet foods. The pet food
industry states that home prepared diets are not complete and balanced
and that we are basically killing our pets if we don't feed commercial
pet foods. I know hundreds of pets that are now eating a homemade
diet and doing extremely well including my three cats and dog.

Ann
  #10  
Old September 1st 03, 01:11 PM
Ann Martin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Cathy Friedmann" wrote
All these people have stated that this industry is regulated. Where
is the proof? Show me one document that gives any indication that
ingredients in pet foods are regulated. One idiot stated that the
USDA/FSIS regulated the ingredients used in pet foods. WRONG! they
have no input at all. The FDA/CVM oversees any drugs that are used in
pet foods and the labeling text. NOTHING ELSE. The AAFCO sets
guidelines and it is up to each state to adopt these guidlines. Very
few states actually do and if they do this group, comprised of many
from the pet food industry, has no input at all into the ingredients
used. If you follow the AAFCO guidlelines, as I have pointed out in a
previous post, the foods can contain such things as "hydrolyzed hair,"
dehydrated garbage," "dehydrated food waste," "dried ruminant waste,"
"dried swine waste," "undried processed animal waste products,". NOW
WOULD YOU PLEASE PROVIDE SOME DOCUMENTATION AS TO WHO REGULATES THE
INGREDIENTS THAT ARE IN COMMERCIAL FOOD. THE PET FOOD COMPANIES,
THAT'S WHO REGULATES THIS INDUSTRY.

snipped
As I've said before, I don't have the time to spend with people like
you and won't bother wasting anymore time with your posts. Others on
the list know that I am more then happy to provide any documented
information they require.

Ann


Small, nit-picky correction: this is a news group, not a list.


Thanks Cathy, I'll remember that in the future.

And, it's considered to be impolite to use caps for entire words/sentences
in ngs - it's = shouting.


Cathy, if I were speaking directly to these people I would be shouting
as they can't seem to comprehend anything I have said. There will be
no more shouting as I will not be responding to these people again.

Ann

 




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