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Invisible fence fouled...



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 20th 05, 08:23 PM
hanson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Invisible fence fouled...

Peanut, my cat, learned to beat the invisible fence that I installed in
my yard. He was using it for about 2 years with no incident. Peanut
did not seem to care that he couldn't get out. Then I turned down the
"power" a bit, so he would have a slightly bigger area to enjoy.

Well, the new "power" setting worked fine for a few days. But then he
somehow learned to escape. I think he would just run through the shock
area... and once he got outside, he was fine.

The real problem is that I turned the power back up, but Peanut can
still escape. And I don't think training him on this system again will
help.

I am considering purchasing something like this:
http://store.yahoo.com/comfort1st/petinfenpiff.html

....which can not be escaped from. Do you think it will be difficult to
re-train him? I know very little (i.e. nothing) about cat behavior.
All I know is that I am honored that Peanut allows me to commune with
his graciousness. My master thanks you for your contribution. :-|

  #2  
Old April 20th 05, 08:34 PM
Alison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"hanson" wrote in message
oups.com...
Peanut, my cat, learned to beat the invisible fence that I installed

in
my yard. He was using it for about 2 years with no incident.

Peanut
did not seem to care that he couldn't get out. Then I turned down

the
"power" a bit, so he would have a slightly bigger area to enjoy.

Well, the new "power" setting worked fine for a few days. But then

he
somehow learned to escape. I think he would just run through the

shock
area... and once he got outside, he was fine.

The real problem is that I turned the power back up, but Peanut can
still escape. And I don't think training him on this system again

will
help.

I am considering purchasing something like this:
http://store.yahoo.com/comfort1st/petinfenpiff.html

...which can not be escaped from. Do you think it will be difficult

to
re-train him? I know very little (i.e. nothing) about cat behavior.
All I know is that I am honored that Peanut allows me to commune

with
his graciousness. My master thanks you for your contribution. :-|



If your cat escapes IV then it will escape this. It's based on the
same principle and gives a static electric shock . Also this type of
fencing doesn't stop other animals getting into your yard. have you
thought about using a mesh fence? (Friendly fencing)
Alison



  #3  
Old April 20th 05, 08:40 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

For the kind of money you're talking about, you could build a really
nice enclosure.
I don't think this product is suitable for cats anyway. It sounds like
it was more designed for dogs.

Sherry

  #7  
Old April 21st 05, 07:07 PM
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:58:10 -0400, dgk
wrote:

... but when
you're not there it's ok for him to go past them.

Just like I have several cats that know they're not supposed to be on the
kitchen counter when I'm around.


Ummmm - not really. Are you familiar with how an IF works? The
collar the cat (or dog) wears gives a tone warning and then a pretty
strong correction of they progress past the fenceline.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
  #8  
Old April 29th 05, 07:59 AM
TheAmazingPuppyWizard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"J1Boss" wrote in message
...

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.


Janet Boss

"sionnach" wrote in message
...

"J1Boss" wrote in message
...


I can't imagine needing anything higher
than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
dog like a Lab.


An INSENSITIVE DOG???

I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.


------------------------------

  #9  
Old April 29th 05, 08:08 AM
TheAmazingPuppyWizard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Subject: Innotek iut300 vs. Dogtra 200ncp

HOWEDY dave,

"Dave K" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Hi, all!


Can anybody give me some idea as
to what an invisible fence goes for


"Tricia9999" wrote in message
...

how effective are these electronic fences in
keeping a dog on a property????


Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.


Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.


Just hides under a desk in the house.


------------------------------*----

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole
cruelty thread
again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be
cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe
at the beginning, but we've come a long way since
then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a
recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but
she's never been punished, even in the mildest
way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and
watching Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced
that the shaking is behavioral, not physical.


Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
but when I add everything up, I don't see
symptoms of anything neurological--

and the vet agrees.


--Lia


"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR*ufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR*ufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

Shocking dogs goes for dog abusing mental
cases who ain't got the intellect to HOWEtwit
the cunnin of the domestic puppy dog even
after The Amazing Puppy Wizard and HIS
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students all over the
Whole Wild World told you HOWE they done
it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR
FREE, to boot.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEHAHAHHAHAAA!!!

and how it is priced?


Misty SEZ the price was too high:

misty" wrote in message
news:
...


We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.
Two dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no
collars.


Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want
to come back in the yard and would run for days.


The last time, Peach didn't come back home.


I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how
to train my dog.


She is now border trained. A few minutes each day
reinforces her desire to stay in the yard. She no
longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from
chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk
around the yard.


I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate
the e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a
regular fence then you need to train your dog.


I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my
dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-(


~misty



(Square footage of the yard, perimeter?)



You could train your dog to ANY perimeter or border
in a couple minutes withHOWET HURTING and
INTIMIDATING IT if you knew HOWE:

"misty" wrote in message news:



I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know
she's not here with us. I really can't blame anyone
here for her loss.


I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because
of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the
idea that my using a shock collar could have any
bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home.


Up until I started using it my main concern had been
keeping my dogs in their own yard.


Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my
concern became how to keep them from running off for
days on end.


I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in
the anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.


I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world
now g A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely
housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the
yard, and doesn't bark all the time.


IOW a great companion and friend.


Thanks Jerry!


=====================


Here's a couple MOORE in case you think
Misty is a FLUKE or sumpthin... EVERY
CASE HISTORY CITED CAN BE VERIFIED:


From: Nevyn )
Subject: radio fence
Date: 2003-11-05 04:17:45 PST


Hi folks,


In my opinion the use of a radioshock fence is a waste of
time, effort or money. I can understand it if you a rich snob
who cares nothing about their dogs safey or behaviours.


At work I boundary train all the dogs to the bricked area
(Four kennels with 26 cages with 1 dog in each, 1 services
building and 2 catterys which is surrounded by scrubland to
the east and woodlands to the north and a lake to the west).


This works well, because then when people buy them the dogs
are easier to boundary train to a door or fence or yard.


However on a personal note, my two shelter mutts, who I
trained using the WITS END DOG MANUAL available at
www.doggydoright.com will not go past the back door, or the
back gate or the front gate without permission.


And it is nice, for when you are having a party, you can leave
your gates open for people, and your dogs won't be the least
concerned.


I find this better then spending your well earned money on a
piece of junk Why not use it to invest in a horse? Or a new
house? Make a nice aquarium? Build a nursery for a child?


Save your money. Train your dog. Please. -- Thankyou,
Nevyn


______________________________*___
Nevyn E.D. Veterinary Nurse
& Animal Trainer
"You can judge a man's heart by his treatment of animals"
______________________________*____


From: Paul B *z)
Subject: Fence Jumping


Date: 2000-09-29 04:33:37 PST


Been well experienced in dogs escaping from our
yard I know exactly the frustration you are going
through. Sam used to jump over the fence so I
made it higher then we got Roz and she went
under it, through it and climbed over it.


I've decided there are only 2 ways to stop the escaping,
1 is to have an escape proof fence, the other to train the
dogs not to want to escape.


I suppose a third method is to keep them
inside but I don't consider that a solution.


Making the fence escape proof can be almost impossible
if the dog is determined, to stop it climbing over as yours
is doing put an extension on top of the fence that angles
inwards at about 30-45 degrees. Never use chicken wire
as the dogs tear through that like paper.


The only training method to prevent this I can recall is
Jerry's technique, essentially it involves walking around the
perimeter of the fenced area with the dog and using sound
distractions and praise to teach the dog it's boundary.


I have had partial success with it (i.e. I have deterred Roz
from escaping from various points along the fence) but then
again I haven't really followed it through completely.


One last glimmer of hope, as the dog gets older it may
become more settled, Sam never escapes now although
he's quite capable of getting out, he 2.5 years old and
seemed to settle at about 2. So there you are, only 1.5
years of escaping left!!!


Paul.


=================



My wife and I are just making preparations for the puppy,



A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES.

ALL Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING


ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.


Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.



Oscar or Abby!



"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."

Like a confessor Priest?


"With him,
words play no torturing tricks.........., "
--John Galsworthy.


Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. {} ; ~ )



Thanks everybody!



You mean 'Thanks Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Cowards and ACTIVE LONG TERM
INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who HURT INTIMIDATE
and MURDER dogs'.


Dave from CT



granville's DEAD DOG ATTACKED a child biting
her viciHOWESLY in the face for standin in front
of a fence that reminded her of her SHOCK FENCE
JUST LIKE HOWE liea altshuller's dog Cubbe
ATTACKED her only friend and tried to attack two
children when they stood in her SHOCK ZONE and
culprit aka kelly's dogs MURDERED her DEAD KAT
and attack each other thanks to their SHOCK FENCES.
Here's a child gettin MAULED, thanks to a shock fence:

HOWEDY granville,
(Granville) wrote in
:



I am in a spin.



Well, permit The Puppy Wizzzard to turn you INSIDE OUT.

That'll improve the spin... so you can kill your dog
in good conscience, just like you been HURTIN IT in good
consicience, cause that's the NATURE of a lying dog abusing
Punk Thug Coward who'd HURT their dog and then KILL IT, to
be FAIR.



We have two golden retrievers.



Yeah. That won't last long, HOWEver.


They are sisters



They WAS. WON IS ABOUT TO GET DEAD NOW.


and just over a year old.



Yeah. The Puppy Wizzzard's been EXXXPECTING you.

WELCOME TO WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method School Of HARD KNOCKS.



As you would expect



You're about to KILL your dog, as PREDICTED.


they are real softies.



Yeah. That's HOWE COME you'd HURT them. You wouldn't
have the balls to hurt a dog like The Puppy Wizzzard's
dogs, cause they'd mop the goddamned floors with you
for HURTIN them...


No aggression,



Of course not. That's on account of they fear you,
cause you hurt them.


you can take a bone away,



Cause you'll HURT them if they don't give it up...


their dinner away and no problem...just a sad face.



Yeah... Just sad.


I had both of them on a lead, was leaning against a
wall and watching a game.



The Puppy Wizzzard don't PLAY games. You HURT
your dogs, that's HOWE COME they've now turned
AGGRESSIVE:

From: Granville )
Subject: e-fencing question
Date: 2003-01-29 05:26:47 PST


I have found the secret is for the dog to associates
something different and new with crossing the barrier.


I put on the lead, leave on the collar,
turn the system off and walk the dog across.


Ok so the first time the resist, but they soon learn
that it's ok to cross over with their leash attached.


It gives them "permission" to cross with you and the leash.


I don't take the collar off, because I use a training
collar as well. I don't want the dog becoming "collar
smart" and only obey if they have the collar on."


The "training" collar being your PRONGED SPIKED
PINCH CHOKE collar...



They were both sitting, quietly beside me.



Yeah.. just relaxin.


Along comes a 3 year old child and pets the dogs, wagging
tales , licks to face etc. She was stroking them for about
5 mins. I had my back turned and then.......



Then the dog looked around and seen the fences...
and the kids.


The larger one (30kg) went for the child.



Yeah.. surprise, surprise, surprise...


Bit her on the forehead, drew blood.



Good for you!


This was not a quick nip, but about 3
seconds of sustained biting/attacking



The sight of the fence nearby the kids provoked
memories of every shock your poor dog has taken
from your shock fence.


and needed me to pull the dog away.



Yeah. He went really NUTS cause YOU HURT HIM.


The smaller dog (20kg) continued sitting and was not
invloved at all.



He'll probably do the same thing, he's just learnin HOWE.


Thankfully the child was fine.



That so? You think it's fine to get your head bit by
a dog at the park on lead?


Nothing that a plaster and some TLC won't heal.



Yeah... a stroke of LUCK... hunh? You mighta got sued
BIG TIME had the dog ripped the kid's face off, like he
wanted to do for the kid, cause YOU HURT HIM.


There was no provocation that I could see...



Of curse not!!! You'll NEVER SEE the TRUTH, cause
that's SCAREY, and THAT would MAKE YOU SAD. You're
EMBARRASSED lookin at your own HUMAN NATURE.


not that that would excuse it.



We don't need EXXXCUSES for HURTIN HOWER dogs.


I heard no whimper of say a finger poked in the dogs eye etc.



The child didn't HURT the dog. YOU DID. You BEEN HURTING IT
since day WON.


I think the dog got a fright as much as the
child...the dog peed everywhere.



The dog was frightened of YOU.


I don't know what to do.



The Puppy Wizzzard does. The Puppy Wizzzard sez
only THUGS PUNKS and COWARDS HURT DOGS
and then they KILL THEM, TO BE FAIR.


Is this a fault in her?.



YOU HURT YOUR DOG TO "TRAIN" IT.

Now you wantPERMISSION to KILL IT.


You got The Puppy Wizzzard's PERMISSION to
KILL your dog... so long as you EXXXPLAIN
to your KIDS, HOWE COME YOU GOT TO KILL YOUR
DOG, CAUSE YOU HURT IT, and MADE IT FEAR CHILDREN.



Can I trusther with my 7 year old child?.



Can society TRUST YOU with a child. The Puppy
Wizzzard sez NO. You're a liar and an abuser.


I can't rationalise this behaviour.



Of curse you can... you have since the git go,
since day WON...


She's doesn't appear to be sick,



It's YOU who is SICK.


She lets my 7 year old roll and tumble with her all the time.



Cause she knows you'll HURT HER if she plays rough...
like the food and bone and pullin on leash. It's all the
same same same same...


I have nieces and nephews that could now be at
risk when they come over.



NOT IF YOU HURT THE DOG ENOUGH.
She's SAFE, so long as YOU HURT HER
IN ADVANCE.


So I need some words of wisdom



You're the bum who's been tellin US to HURT HOWER dogs.


to help our family understand what we may be facing,



You're facing your own human nature, SUCKER.


what we should do now



What you SHOULD do has NEVER been a question for
you. You've done what your HUMAN NATURE DICTATES:
HURT less capable beings, and LIE to DEFEND YOURSELF.


and into the future



You'll KILL this dog, and in a few months when his
littermate turns on the family or a neighbor's kid,
you'll KILL IT, too...

And when your kids grow up and end up in jail or nutHOWESES,
you'll blame THEM for not listening to you when you was
SETTING THE EXXXAMPLE of HUMAN DECENCY.



and how we should think about this incident.



The Puppy Wizzzard doesn't pander to lying dog abusing Punk
Coward Thugs who're fixin to KILL their dogs cause THEY HURT
THEM:


Thanks



THANK YOU!!!

The Puppy Wizzzard NEEDS YOUR CASE HISTORY:


From: Granville )
Subject: It's not like that.....
Date: 2003-01-30 10:49:38 PST


I must disagree....none of what is contained in the
article resonates with me nor have I seen it with
the other 7 people I know who have an electric
fence.


The dogs restrained include Retrievers, Spaniels,
Wheaten Terriers, Labs.


I accept that there is a theoretical risk if you
have a highly strung or more bullheaded animal.


However I have seen such animals going beserk
behind fences and trying to dig under them and
gnawing at them.


In my view the animal has been out of control through
their dislike of any restraint. The problem is primarily
with the animal not the method of keeping them restrained.


However in this case it's a moot point...given we are
talking about a balanced animal.


I have two labs...and there has never been an issue of
agression nor their natural protective instincts being
heightened by the EF.


Strays get seen off and the dogs stop at the boundary
and bark .....at worst.


The notion that a stray getting into the fenced off
area and affectively having your dog captive within
the area is true, however I have never seen it.


Probably because dogs tend to protect their space,
and strays get the signals that they are not wanted.


But hey just for fun lets speculate for a while.....


Imagine your dog is pefect and sits in the yard...you
have no EF nor perimeter fence...In strolls another dog
into the yard.


What happens...if your dog sees them off, or plays..no
issue If your dog is fearful and cowers and stays in situ....
well thats just the dogs personality....no issue


Why would you put an EF down in this instance?.....
Strikes me as there is no need.


What happens if your dog bolts and/or chases rather
than stays in situ. Well unless you want to give total
freedom to run wherever they fancy, you either have him
permanently chained up, you put up a yard fence or you
lay down an EF.


In my view the best and most cost effective option


in keeping an even tempered and placid dog humanely
contained throughout the day is the EF.


In the two years I have had an EF I have could count
the amount of corrrections on two hands.


They learn really quickly.


By the way the installation is really easy..took me a
half day to do a yard...150 feet X 100 feet.



"jay jay" wrote in message


...


"julio" wrote in message
...
In article , "jay
jay" wrote:
"julio" wrote in message
...
I saw your post the first time - thank you very much.
But - wdj doesn't put up more than the first couple
paragraphs of the article online.


Bascially the author expressed serious concern with
e-fences for the following reasons:
they use pain as a training tool. Eventhough it is mild,
it needs to be enough to make the dog stop a behavior.
Many dogs, espically ones that are more bullheaded (as a
breed or individual) may need more than average.
there is a strong possibllity that it will feed whatever
is making the dog want to get out of the e-fence. Often
its the sight of anothe dog. the e-fence dog might be
dog-aggressive.
Seeing another dog feeds that getting
him/her into a heighten state of behavior. Feeling the
pain stimuli from the e-fence can make him even more
aggressive and/or agitated. The author notes
several case histories where a dog's aggressive
tendencies, which were ok and handled beforehand, got
totally out of control after the e-fence.
Also the dog might be trying to get out due to fear.
Another dog might get into the e-fence or some animal
that the dog doesn't want to be around. Again
the combination of the fear with the effect from the
e-fence can be problematic.
Also the WDJ is a great magazine. It has no advertising
and pulls no punches in evaluating things. Its articles
on dog food are great.

So - tell me - if your dog is not dog agressive ... is not
fearful of anything ... is actually friendly towards other
animals and people, and will only be allowed out there under
some form of supervision - (maybe not direct, but humans
being in the house, within earshot and visibility) and its
not going to be used as a place to let the dog roam while
the humans are not at home... And, *hopefully* if training
goes well, fencing (or I should say collar) will be disabled
once the dog knows the boundries of the yard.
Under those circumstances ... aren't things different?
Anyhow - I realize the biggest downfall to e-fencing is that
it allows other dogs to roam into your yard without
incident, besides the electric thing. But ... I honestly,
do not have the option of a regular fence ...
ANd - like I've stated before - this isn't a definate - but
if I'm not gonna do it - it has to be an extremely firm
argument and reasoning - as BF is set on doing this asap...
(as in this weekend, he's ready to buy and install). I'm
still pushing for a 100' trolley with a 25' leader in the
back yard. That would be the other option.




Oh, bye the bye, ask matty HOWE his dog Rocky's
SEIZURES are doin... THAT'S CAUSED BY BRIBES
AND PUNISHMENT AND CRATING...

BWEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!



"J1Boss" wrote in message


...


He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.


Janet Boss

"sionnach" wrote in message



...


"J1Boss" wrote in message
...


I can't imagine needing anything higher
than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
dog like a Lab.




An INSENSITIVE DOG???


I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.



Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns
about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE
SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his
shelter dogs learn RESPECT.

This is a video about Nero being taught to get on
a skateboard.


http://www.studioonline.com/pl*ayvid...284B9ABD*FCE0F


or http://tinyurl.com/389al


In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.


If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.


Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh


Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the
abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts.


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good
of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those
who torment us for our own good will torment us
without end, for they do so with the approval of
their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis.


"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny",
Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon.


"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action
as separate, not the wise. If any man knows one, he
enjoys the fruit of both. The level which is reached by
wisdom is attained through right action as well. He who
perceives that the two are one knows the truth."


"Even the wise man acts in character with his nature,
indeed all creatures act according to their natures.
What is the use of compulsion then? The love and
hate which are aroused by the objects of sense arise
from Nature, do not yield to them. They only obstruct
the path." Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with
permission from His FREE copy of my FREE Wits'
End Dog Training Method manual.


Force training JERRYIZES dogs, and GETS THEM DEAD.


Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog
and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only friend
and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her
surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless:


Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST


Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the
first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were
when we first got her before she'd had any training
and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the
physical one.


It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored
clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was
horrible for us. She had a blast running free and
chasing whatever she wanted.


For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we
tried to catch her.


Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday
morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren't
quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she
was preoccupied with her head down a hole.


For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash.
She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions.


She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats
for those recalls. She gets
plenty of time to run free in the backyard.


Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been
working on them. I haven't been as good about
introducing the variable reinforcement there, but
I have been good about making sure that she's
never tricked into coming into the house when
she'd rather be outside. I always call her, give
her a treat or praise and let her go again.


So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't
think I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about
to ask y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes,
and while I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I
am hoping you'll concentrate on what I should do now.


Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice
backyard time. I'd gotten her into the house and
was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front
door and right in front of our noses.


She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when
she went over the wire, and the chase ensued.


We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.


Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collarnow
with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in
when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell
that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she
could have another fun romp in the neighborhood.


I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every
time I open the door.


Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.


My specific questions:


How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?


She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and
could zap her when she's near certain windows inside.


If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar,
can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front
door with her leash on?


I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.


What's the best emergency procedure if, god
forbid, it should happen again?


Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I
mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so
obviously freaked when we
used leash corrections and scoldings when we first
got her.


I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state
my opinion once and won't defend it further: any
method can be cruel for some dogs.


Even the slightest punishment was wrong for
Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long
way since then.


She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.


Is it time for that?


What might I look for to tell?


Last night we had friends over for dinner with their
3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved
Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her.
I was impressed with how quickly they caught on
and how little correction they needed to be consistent
with the clicks and treats.


Cubbe was fine with the children; she always
has been. Just as they were getting ready to
go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.


Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined
because she gave a snarl-snap.


I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know
that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't
frightened at all, and her parents who were also right
there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked
the snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce
that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship.


I let Cubbe up and all was fine.


I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.


Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with
Cubbe the escapee?


--Lia


===================


"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message


...


I need help deciding if I have a real problem with
Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I'm
imagining trouble where there is none.
Here's what happened last April the way I described
it to a friend at the time:
I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking
myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been
over many times and has always gotten along great
with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let
Ellie in.
She's barky-protective but then stops barking once
Ellie is inside. She's never shown any real
aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out
together to run an errand.
Ellie was coming in the house with packages so
I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with
Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily.
I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside,
I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out
to attack the intruder.
Ellie was trying to be friendly.
Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed
when they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every
night, but Ellie was understandably scared.
Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away.
I got Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary
thing is that, even though the damage is minor, it
does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to do it.
I guess I should just learn from it and never let
Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm
horribly torn up.
I've said that I would never keep an aggressive
dog. Now the whole issue is so complicated.
Cubbe is great even with kids when we meet
them in the neighborhood.
Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the
night in the computer room with Jim while I answered
the door. She did bark each time she heard the
doorbell ring. We did nothing to discourage that.
We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she
heard people in the neighborhood, especially
at night. Later in the evening, Jim put Cubbe
on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the
computer room was our neighbor Nicky.
I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since
we got her 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted
her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his mask
on the porch so I'd know who it was.
Then I invited him into the hall to pet Cubbe.
Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him.
Of course Jim was right there so no damage was
done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand away,
and he didn't get scared.
Nothing scares that boy.
I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the
house.
Both times they've been people she knows and
should like. She's wonderfully nice to people on
walks. We don't have guests over too often so
I can't comment if it's a growing thing or not.
Comments please. Is this a major growing
aggression problem?
I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
What do I do about it?
I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
her car, and then we walk in together.
She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
doing something more to make sure this doesn't
escalate?
--Lia



From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.


Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.


I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.


Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.


Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.


Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).


Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.


Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced
fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She
was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief,
had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his
ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd
wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief
was fine, nary a hair out of place.


Naturally with us all right there, we were able to
intervene in seconds.


A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them
for chat and apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe
story.)


Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people.


Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought
out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for
a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we
all weren't practically on top of her?


Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a
few seconds would have been better for a first try?


Or other theories?


Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?


--Lia


===================


  #10  
Old April 29th 05, 12:15 PM
Charlie Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:59:57 -0400, "TheAmazingPuppyWizard"
wrote:


"J1Boss" wrote in message
...

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.


Janet Boss

"sionnach" wrote in message
...

"J1Boss" wrote in message
...


I can't imagine needing anything higher
than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
dog like a Lab.


An INSENSITIVE DOG???

I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.


------------------------------


Hey Jerry! This is the cat group. We don't use shock collars over
here. We use lighter fluid and matches.

Charlie


 




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