Urinary tract crystals - causes

My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the
space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I
noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up,
just to see if it had been peed on.

The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on
Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that
time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test
results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special
food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple
of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.

The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her
anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few
days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other
cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely
that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
period could cause Samba problems.

It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of her
meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could have
eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the
source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other
sources of things besides food that might cause crystals.

For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the
morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface
sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting a
bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested
finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is something
that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility.

The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my
food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may
be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any
specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at
least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And
I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in the
world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs.

I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats on
a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet simply
be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of
cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d,
http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/prod...bmLocale=en_CA,
c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid
urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That
certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_ the
absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description on
their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that
crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d
developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit.

I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if anyone
can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for
her than c/d, I'd love to hear it.

Rhino

"Rhino" wrote in message
.. .

The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
eats only Hill's c/d.
Rhino


If that is really what your vet said, then it seems that it is time for a
new vet. Diet can *reduce* the possibility of crystals, but I have never
heard anyone else say that a cat "can't get crystals" merely because of a
specific diet.

MaryL

Rhino wrote:

I would dearly love to prevent any
future bouts of this problem so if
anyone can suggest causes of crystal
formation or a food that would be
better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

---MIKE--- wrote:
Rhino wrote:

I would dearly love to prevent any
future bouts of this problem so if
anyone can suggest causes of crystal
formation or a food that would be
better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

It comes in dry and canned varieties. There are 3 flavors of Feline
c/d canned.

---MIKE--- wrote:
Rhino wrote:

I would dearly love to prevent any
future bouts of this problem so if
anyone can suggest causes of crystal
formation or a food that would be
better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear
it.

Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any
high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine
and could help prevent formation of crystals.

I agree with Mike. I would definitely try her on a canned diet, maybe
another brand from Hill's and see how she does.

Hello Rhino,

Did the vet say that they were struvite crystals in particular? There
are a couple of different kinds.

Struvite can form if the urine is too akaline. One thing that makes
urine go akaline is stress. Any extra stresses for her right now? Any
other cats picking on her? C/d is supposed to help make the urine more
acidic.

If her urine is too acidic, calcium oxalate crystals can form.

Did she have a bacterial infection too either time, or just the crystals?

Good luck finding the answer,

Rhonda

Rhino wrote:

This
week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.

Rhino wrote:
My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months,
has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the
space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off
the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I
noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first
such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up,
just to see if it had been peed on.

Rhino,
Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure
that they are still struvite crystals? As cats get older the risks
change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts
which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx
formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals
are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your
best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise
me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d
instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem
as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms.

Rhino wrote:
The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on
Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd
actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that
time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test
results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special
food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple
of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This
week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has
been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again.

The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have
crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a
few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she
eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her
anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she
has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few
days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other
cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at
mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the
last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely
that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short
period could cause Samba problems.

I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
prescription foods for a purpose. I was furious with the vet for not
pointing out that risks involved and stones are more dangerous and may
require surgery as compared to crystals. This cat was put on a low ash
diet - don't know the food, I was not there later, and is now doing
fine, no surgery and no urinary problems and inappropriate urinating
problems.

I might aim for a very low phosphorus canned food that is fairly well
regarded. Science Diet makes some good ones as do others. These are the
premium brands. There are those that are low phosphorus and aimed for
urinary problems. I would also make sure the cat is drinking sufficient
water which could be a culprit here. How? FRESH water, not those water
fountains. Fresh water that is filtered, not tap water. And sometimes
put out fresh water and NO FOOD until she drinks. I sometimes do that
with my cat. She meows and what not but then drinks the water just to
have something to do in the morning until the food appears.

Are they very sure what is the problem here? Crystals or a stone or
what?

You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

I am not a vet nor have a whole lot of experience. But the experience I
have is not good with vets. And I am now a bit suspicious of the
prescription foods by Science Diet since finding out that high fat can
cause other problems. It's not all that simple.

I would not be surprised if the s/d caused problems. If your vet is
baffled, he may not be that well versed. I am wondering if she is
developing a stone because of the high fat content of these special
diets as happened with the cat kitty-sat for a few weeks.

Vets and this was a super special cat vet who was miffed when I told
her that her practice never said anything about the high fat content.

wrote:
Rhino wrote:

I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
prescription foods for a purpose.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.

You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
etc.

wrote:
Rhino wrote:

I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of
these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I
forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very
limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are
prescription foods for a purpose.

Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite
stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is
designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite
stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of
calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these
foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of
the type of diet and length of use can be maintained.

You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more
safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet
had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d
and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or
prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit.

Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of
canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4
range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and
crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates
etc.